A Darth Vader Collection and Lineage Thread....

[vaderdarth]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

SPFX changed even the faceplate dimensions by trimming them here and there, altering them in all respects, building them up again in the way he though more accurate looking so he could pass them off as originals. The vast vast majority of his stuff is way way smaller than the GH originals and 20th C originals. A couple pieces are larger because he added bulk to areas like cheeks, nose and mouth areas to hide his recasts as well as attempt to hide the fact that his helmets were all too small.

 

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

I understand the interest in showing more information about the history of individual castings, but this is a lineage of castings showing where they came from and how they are related to one another, not how often they are repainted. Once a casting comes to be, its identity based on the source doesn't change, which makes the tree what it is.

You could have another tree showing all the castings and how often they were repainted, but that is a repaint history tree, not a lineage tree.

That Don Bies ESB helmet was refinished. But it is still the same helmet. That ANH pyre helmet in ROTJ was burned to a crisp. But it is still the same helmet with the same lineage.

Ok?

Repainting is not relevant to lineage.

 

[RBJ]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

I feel the repainting of a helmet is relevant, especily if a new mold is taken after a paintjob that may obscre some details and change others in the process, thus changing any casting there after..

You cant say a mold taken off the original ANH after the tour repaint would hold the same level of detail as one take off the helmet directly after or during production

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Couldn't you also say that any helmet altered from its original state is also suspect?

Dave, I haven't gotten a SPFX helmet to compare. Is there some proof about his pieces being that much small in regards to the ROTJ helmet, or the 20th Century? I know his pieces have evolved over the years, so it is hard to tell what is what. That said, his are still the only reasonably attainable helmets on the market right now.

So, the consensus is that the SPFX helmet came from the GH ROTJ recast. If that is the case, Thomas' tree is incorrect as well. See, the problem with this entire thread is it is one person's opinion, and frankly, there is a bias involved in some of these tree postings. Honestly, Carsten's tree feels closer.

 

[sskunky]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

does this mean my re done VM02 should be on this tree then? :lol it's been changed from the original piece.
That's what is being said here or have I got the wrong end of the stick/twig....

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

does this mean my re done VM02 should be on this tree then? :lol it's been changed from the original piece.
That's what is being said here or have I got the wrong end of the stick/twig....

I guess that is what is being said. Don't let it take away from your work, man. It's an amazing bit of repair and beautification.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

I won't really comment on which is closer. I have a vastly different approach than Thomas regarding how I do my tree. I'm listing things as I feel they relate to each other and how they link back to a common source. There may be individual molds for each of the helmets on the tree or there may be only a few - all I care about is the confirmed first mold source they link back to, which is why I put the VP, TM, TD, 20th C (missing some here - just for illustration) on the same branch linking back to the same source mold, because... they share unique details that link them together, but they were cast at vastly different times, for vastly different purposes and may have had links (molds) in between them and that one source mold... but since I don't know the full story on all these helmets... I'm keeping things simple.

Am I right? I make no claims of being so. This is the tree as I am seeing the history. I may be right, I may be off... I will leave that up to the viewer to decide. Don't take my tree as gospel. That wouldn't be wise. Use it as a guide to go dig into this on your own and learn as much as you can and make up your own mind of what you believe.

Sure... there are probably issues with the way I'm doing the tree, but as long as you keep in mind that it is just an attempt to map the helmets and their lineage (not including timeframe and additional mold lines) as I understand things, then things will be fine.

Though I may say I'm perfect in every way... that's just referring to my looks.

 

[vaderdarth]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Don't misunderstand me, many of SPFX's helmets were caught very early in their production by those individuals who's property was recast. He literally turned his pieces over to those guys as a sign of good faith............but some did get out. There are more recast SPFX derivatives in collectors hands than can possibly be shown on that tree. And there is no way to prove which casting is being included. Thomas can assure you that he hasn't put hands on every single SPFX derived noggin floating around out there. SPFX could flip a recast in a weekend, he was very talented in that way. If he received a casting on Friday, re-shaped remoulded and popped out a new casting by Sunday, he could easily put up a for sale thread by Monday morning. Alot of unsuspecting victims had no idea it was their own stuff being sold on ebay until after the fact. Luckily most folks that offered vader helmets were wise enough to put their own signatures within the casting as a tell tale sign.

I would have to agree that the painting process can have enough of an effect on a casting to mislead one about it's lineage. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

And yes all these theoretical family trees are subject to to error. Again, unless one guy had them all in his possession at each step along the way, there is no way to prove anything 100%.

I mean think about it, theoretically a guy could take two completely different sourced helmets, make one look identical to the other with enough sculpey and sanding, then pour it up in rubber. It'd be naiive to think folks like SPFX haven't tried that already. Here is another food for though.............there are products out there that if a guy wanted to increase the size of his casting, can alter the mix to get a 10% increase for example..........and the resulting casting will be a duplicate of the original only 10% larger. Now sharpen it up and make the details alot more crisp and you've got yourself a winner!!!!!

Please don't anyone believe they know it all when it comes to all these helmets. There is just too many variables in play.

This tree is just one guy's guide. Trust it or don't. It has value simply based on size alone..........because if a guy wants to buy a nice accurate helmet and he finds that the thing is at least 3 generations (size wise) from one of the more accurate castings that he can't afford or can't find.......this tree has saved him a bad decision in his mind. What is wrong with that????

The higher up the tree you go, the better and more accurate will be the casting. I mean, if you had a choice of either a Fyberdine helmet or a 20th C...............you know as well as I that you will buy the 20th C. Assuming it's not 10X the cost of the FD helmet.

Dave

 

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

I feel the repainting of a helmet is relevant, especily if a new mold is taken after a paintjob that may obscre some details and change others in the process, thus changing any casting there after..

You cant say a mold taken off the original ANH after the tour repaint would hold the same level of detail as one take off the helmet directly after or during production

Exactly how does paintwork, or restoration or any kind of modification change the origin of a helmet?

Lineage defines origin. It has nothing to do with how much detail is left on the source helmet, how many times it was painted, whether they put smoke lenses or amber lenses on it, whether they decided to change the mounting system, or whether they replaced the tusks with inaccurate ones. None of that has anything to do with lineage.

On top of that, most of the time we don't know when exactly the different molds were made, even if we have some idea about when the pulls were made.

Let's go back to your example. If the Eller helmet is so different, what would come from it then? What branches would you put off of it? And you imply that after the ANH helmet was painted (and it wasn't painted in its entirety in case you didn't notice), anything coming from it is substantially different from what came before it that it would be considered an entirely different helmet? Again, lineage deals with origin. The nature of the source is determined not by how many times it is painted, but by what it is.

And you naturally imply that every repaint on every helmet will fundamentally change what it is and that simply is not the case. That would then require that every helmet be accounted for for every time it was repainted in terms of lineage. First of all, trying to establish such a criterion among all the helmets is unreasonable. Secondly, you would have to identify the helmets after repaint as being something else, when it isn't.

 

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Couldn't you also say that any helmet altered from its original state is also suspect?

Exactly and it becomes a reductio ad absurdum. That would mean anytime a helmet is repainted its identity changes, no matter how many coats of paint, whether there was clearcoat or not, or I suppose even if later on it was stripped down and then remolded as a raw casting? I suppose then its identity would change yet again. :rolleyes

Dave, I haven't gotten a SPFX helmet to compare. Is there some proof about his pieces being that much small in regards to the ROTJ helmet, or the 20th Century? I know his pieces have evolved over the years, so it is hard to tell what is what. That said, his are still the only reasonably attainable helmets on the market right now.

I've documented the changes in great detail on TPD. About three or so years ago he switched to the GH ROTJ from the 20th C mask. Because he molded a copy of a 20th C, used that as a master, then molded it again to make his production masks, they were small. After people started showing how small they were next to other castings, he went with a slightly larger mask and reworked it. It is on par now with something like the DS 20th C.

So, the consensus is that the SPFX helmet came from the GH ROTJ recast. If that is the case, Thomas' tree is incorrect as well. See, the problem with this entire thread is it is one person's opinion, and frankly, there is a bias involved in some of these tree postings. Honestly, Carsten's tree feels closer.

Qui, haven't you been on TPD? If you want, I can show a later version of the SPFX ANH coming off the GH ROTJ on the tree. It isn't that hard to add.

Why don't you tell us then the bias inherent to this lineage. I'd like to hear about it. It is a simple matter of making that addition. But the SPFX has gone through so many changes, I thought I would keep it simple and just refer it to the 20th C/GH dome combo.

So I suppose because of this one omission, you find it important to say that the entire thread is only my opinion and that the entire tree is a biased exercise?

You are free to make your own tree, Qui if you don't like this one. If you are to participate, then offer suggestions as to how to improve the tree. If you see bias, then point it out specifically and we can discuss it. But you offer nothing constructive by saying simply that it is just one person's opinion and reject the entire tree out of hand.

I would like to see your version of the tree please and we can discuss your own experience and ideas about lineage in some detail.

Or, why don't you tell us what about Carstens tree makes it unbaised as opposed to the tree I show.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Well... sure. Though, sure, it doesn't change lineage... however... it does change the level of detail that can be found in the subsequent castings of any change made to the original and will perhaps not have as much detail richness as our benchmark desire look of the Tantive IV state of the helmet that we know some of these helmets have.

That is important to note.

 

[RBJ]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

That's exactly my point in thinking the different incarnations of the original helmets should be on the tree..

"and it wasn't painted in its entirety in case you didn't notice" - hey, thanks for being so condesending there, buddy..guess I touched a nerve or something..my bad..

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Thomas, I am TRYING not to get into an argument with you. I really am. The reason I am not is that this thread does have some value behind it. Your opinion has value, as does mine. I am NOT being dismissive, I am merely pointing to TWO things that are grabbing my attention.

To RBJ's point, the paintwork and alteration disguise the origin of the mask. As to my points about the tree, if you were going to be SO touchy because someone does not accept your tree as Holy Writ, why offer it up in the first place? My pointing to bias was in regards to the TD. This has been discussed to death.

My other point about Phil and his stuff was that you have it coming off of the 20th C while others say it was a recast of the RotJ piece. My God, man, is it so hard to take a little bit of criticism? I am not the only one who feels this way. THIS is another reason I said it is one man's opinion.

Dave, you are spot on on your reply. Also dead nuts right on the fact that, yes, given the option, I would soooo not buy a Fiberdyne Vader. I honestly did not know about this stuff you say will make your castings larger by a small margin. That is also news to me.

 

[ob1al]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

What will make casts bigger by 10%?

Enquiring minds want to know...

Seriously though, I'm interested for future projects. What stuff do you mean?

 

[vaderdarth]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

it was a product/process I read on the Smooth-On website. You basically moulded the casting, then soaked the mould in a particular liquid and the entire mould would be enlarged. The process was altered if you wanted to shrink the casting.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

You would think something like that would damage the mold. It seems like a product like this is a recasters wet dream.

 

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Ok just a few changes, off to work so will reply later...

Got rid of the TD, put in the Paul Allen ESB, and linked the GH ROTJ to the SPFX with a year of appearance, and put an additional mold generation between the original ANH and the Fyberdyne/GH group. Still a lot to do...

 

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Well... sure. Though, sure, it doesn't change lineage... however... it does change the level of detail that can be found in the subsequent castings of any change made to the original and will perhaps not have as much detail richness as our benchmark desire look of the Tantive IV state of the helmet that we know some of these helmets have.

That is important to note.

Sorry RBJ.

Well yes there can be changes but what we would need to do then is establish objective criteria for what would make any changes significant enough to have to call a given helmet something new. For example, if someone recast one of the later SPFX helmets which came from the GH ROTJ instead of the 20th C/GH combo, then I would have to put that particular kind of SPFX helmet up on the lineage with a line going down to the recast. But most of the time, the helmet as we name it is basically going to be the same, the only changes warranting separate names is when an ANH/ESB/ROTJ version is made from another movie version.

Given that I am making changes to the lineage and would like input, I'm not expecting people to accept it as the final word or gospel or anything like that. If I made a lineage for my own reference, this is what it would be. So, my thought was ok let's make a lineage and let's see others think about it....that's the goal here. And also I don't really know (yet) that much about some of the more recent fanmades so people that were involved in them could help out with pointing to where they should go on the lineage. Of course I'll be checking my own references to see if I can find where they fit.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Heck. Tbh... I only commented on it causing a difference in the subsequent casts... especially if the closest to Tantive look was the criteria that people strive for... then something from the later repainted original would not have that look.

I just added a little text regarding the two known molds - the UK and US mold to explain some of the differences there's to find with those.

 

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

To RBJ's point, the paintwork and alteration disguise the origin of the mask. As to my points about the tree, if you were going to be SO touchy because someone does not accept your tree as Holy Writ, why offer it up in the first place? My pointing to bias was in regards to the TD. This has been discussed to death.

My other point about Phil and his stuff was that you have it coming off of the 20th C while others say it was a recast of the RotJ piece. My God, man, is it so hard to take a little bit of criticism? I am not the only one who feels this way. THIS is another reason I said it is one man's opinion.

Alright thanks for clarifying Qui. All well and good.

Well it is more a matter of expanding the detail in the lineage, rather than an opinion issue but I get what you mean. What I would have to do is show two groups of SPFX, one from the 20th C/GH line and the other from the GH ROTJ line. For most of the history of the SPFX it was from the 20th C/GH line. The link I provided with a year from the GH ROTJ is one way of doing it, but maybe I'll go ahead and add that second group. If I put the SPFX as just coming from the 20th C/GH line, that was more an omission of additional detail rather than any intentional bias. But again, the idea that the recent SPFX family was recast from the GH ROTJ was through my own examination of his recent ANH casting (and documenting that on TPD) and so that whole part of it would be one person's opinion (albeit an informed one although I'm sure some here would beg to differ :lol) which is partly why I kept it simple and limited it to what everyone recognizes the SPFX as having come from.