A Darth Vader Collection and Lineage Thread....

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Ok whew I took care of all those more obscure Vader helmet replicas. I still need to add the Darth Stone 20th Century helmet. And I will break up the SPFX helmets into two groups once I get new photos. Let me know if there are others I should add. Credit goes to Carsten for keeping a record in his thread of when he added photos of some of these obscure helmets, also to Jez on his starwarshelmets website for keeping his old updates with years. This along with my own archived threads helped to piece together the years of creation of these helmets as best I could. Of course if anyone sees errors please let me know. I might at some point change the organization a bit to make it more balanced but at least it is a good first approximation.

Carsten if you like, I would like to add you as an "author" as well since you did the work on collecting these photos and modifying them for your own list on TPD, plus had some year information that was useful. I know you are working on your own tree, but I think you are a major contributor to this one as well and I wouldn't have done it if the photos were not already handy.

I was debating whether I should indicate what is recast, either by a red colored year, or by a red line going to that casting. I'm curious what others would think about that. I'm sort of partial to just keeping it as a tree and not making it political although I suppose there will always be politics involved about something.

 

[kalarcana]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

I was debating whether I should indicate what is recast, either by a red colored year, or by a red line going to that casting. I'm curious what others would think about that. I'm sort of partial to just keeping it as a tree and not making it political although I suppose there will always be politics involved about something.

I'd agree with leaving out the issue of recasting. Those types of comments ALWAYS kill the original thread and we sometimes loose good information. If people want to know if the helmet is a possible recast they could ask via PM or start a new thread. Personally, I'm tired of seeing good threads closed due to "X" vs "Y" or "this board vs that board." Contrary to what some Vader experts may think, most of us can take the information and weed out all of the BS that eventually gets added when someone's ego comes into play. That said, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone nor am I trying to stir the pot. I'm grateful when information is shared. It might not be absolutely correct in all regards but (a) it's a great start for those without much Vader knowledge, and (b) it fills in some missing pieces that others may not have had.

Again, I think it's a great idea that people are willing to share information. But let's please not kill the message due to the recast issues.




Rick

 

[runnriottt]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Wow. A great Vader thread and I almost missed out! Yeesh. :thumbsup Digging the info on the TD.




The RR in your chart is dead... The new RR has a DS Dome and a fan made face... so that would be a hybrid. I dont think the current owner will use the fan made dome.

IIRC the Thailand ICPhysics lid is a DP Delux.

The MR ROTS would be a gen down from the Production lid... Right? It is remolded... or was it rescanned?

The JBV1 predates the V2 and are diffrent makeups... How do you have them aligned?

If the Fang is a direct Fyberdyne... really, does the fyperdyne rate that high? Its really small. All the details are off and wow... To think it is that high on the chart to ANH?
The Fang with the DS 20th C.

 

[runnriottt]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

so.....that is impressive , So who has the most helmets known as in a collection ?

Good question. I hope that tons of masks make it to C5 and we have a side by side chart in real time.

I have owned 8. Currently I have 5. I have got to comp a few more hands on however.

DS 20th C, SPFX V1, TD, JBv1, Fang

 

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

The RR in your chart is dead... The new RR has a DS Dome and a fan made face... so that would be a hybrid. I dont think the current owner will use the fan made dome.

IIRC the Thailand ICPhysics lid is a DP Delux.

The MR ROTS would be a gen down from the Production lid... Right? It is remolded... or was it rescanned?

The JBV1 predates the V2 and are diffrent makeups... How do you have them aligned?

If the Fang is a direct Fyberdyne... really, does the fyperdyne rate that high? Its really small. All the details are off and wow... To think it is that high on the chart to ANH?
The Fang with the DS 20th C.

Do you have a good front view photo of the new RR and I could put it in?

Thanks about the ICPhysics, I thought I read somewhere it was from a Rubies, but if it is DP Deluxe I'll move it.

The MR ROTS master would be a pull from the production mold. A copy would of course be a generation down. But for the purpose of the tree, my interest is in where the master casting came from, not the copies of it, at least for that helmet.

There could be confusion about the JB nomenclature. The original JB helmet was the Fyberdyne rework as I show. Then he went with the 20th C mask/GH dome combo in collaboration with GH and CKing. That was called the JBV2. From there he continued to sharpen it up and modify that basic combination. Then later on he came up with something different that looked larger and that he or people called the V2 and then his first V2 became the V1. I haven't studied the newer helmet in detail but my guess is that its source is similar. I still need to tidy up the JB section because he had an intermediate helmet that was an improvement over his original V2 which is that one in the center of the JB group, but it was just a slight rework not a new helmet. So I'll be sorting those out so thanks for asking about that.

No, the Fang isn't a Fyberdyne itself. My guess is that the Fang master casting is a copy of a Fyberdyne copy, rather than a rework of an actual Fyberdyne, so a copy of that would give you the casting you have, hence the size. I haven't seen the master Fyberdyne but it presumably had a real forehead clip on it, something the original ANH never had. There's a photo of a good example of a Fyberdyne mask next to the Darth Jones mask and the size is respectable. I'll have to dig that up when I get home. The Fyberdyne itself dates back to the early 90s, at least that was when it was initially available to buy as copies, and the original "Fyberdyne" would have come from something almost certainly from the time of Don Post, so it would be next down the line from things like the DJ, SL and TD.

Nice lineup of buckets. Reminds me of a similar photo I posted here recently of some of my collection.

From left to right, SL ROTS, MR ROTS, SL ANH, TD ANH, DS 20th C copy, TM ESB copy.

 

[gofourindian]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Very nice collection.......

 

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

I'd agree with leaving out the issue of recasting. Those types of comments ALWAYS kill the original thread and we sometimes loose good information. If people want to know if the helmet is a possible recast they could ask via PM or start a new thread. Personally, I'm tired of seeing good threads closed due to "X" vs "Y" or "this board vs that board."

I agree, I'd much rather keep it positive and not go into that here as we have many other threads that dealt with those issues or can deal with them again in the future. And what the lineage lets collectors do is see at a glance something like "oh that actually is a copy of that which in turn was a copy of that, so generationally it is later." It also serves as a shopping list :lol.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Carsten if you like, I would like to add you as an "author" as well since you did the work on collecting these photos and modifying them for your own list on TPD, plus had some year information that was useful. I know you are working on your own tree, but I think you are a major contributor to this one as well and I wouldn't have done it if the photos were not already handy.

Hi mate. I'd prefer not. Hope that's okay. But if you want you can add *pictures courtesy of The Prop Den.*

The DK isn't a copy of a GH, unless your size theory is wrong, as the DK is bigger.

I've put my own list on the back-burner as stuff has come up that I need to deal with. Sorry.

 

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Hi mate. I'd prefer not. Hope that's okay. But if you want you can add *pictures courtesy of The Prop Den.*

The DK isn't a copy of a GH, unless your size theory is wrong, as the DK is bigger.

Shall do, thanks.

What does DK stand for anyway? Is there a photo of a DK next to a GH?

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Hi mate. I'd prefer not. Hope that's okay. But if you want you can add *pictures courtesy of The Prop Den.*

The DK isn't a copy of a GH, unless your size theory is wrong, as the DK is bigger.

I've put my own list on the back-burner as stuff has come up that I need to deal with. Sorry.

Isn't the size theory a tough one to prove too? I've heard about different sized castings coming from the same molds. Not necessarily Vader, but it is possible.

 

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Isn't the size theory a tough one to prove too? I've heard about different sized castings coming from the same molds. Not necessarily Vader, but it is possible.

Based on measurements I have of around 40 different castings from different sources, there is no evidence to suggest variability in size between castings from the same mold is greater than variability between castings from different molds. For example, the 20th Century derivatives are all really close to one another in size even though they come from different makers. And there can be some variation among masks from the same maker, but it doesn't translate into the kind of size differences you see between families of masks separated by generation (and therefore in different places along the lineage). Size is a good marker and indicator of lineage. But it won't be the only determinant. Generally what I see is that the older/larger, younger/smaller rule holds up consistently unless someone intentionally modifies a casting in some way. So it isn't hard to prove.

 

[SithLord]

Dug up this photo from a few years back I took of a couple of TD ANH pulls next to a JB V2 "master" and the GH ANH master masks. The size differences are not on account of variation in how the masks come out of the mold.

VP 1st pull next to the TD...

 

[vader71]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Based on measurements I have of around 40 different castings from different sources, there is no evidence to suggest variability in size between castings from the same mold is greater than variability between castings from different molds.

How many millimeters are we talking about?
In other words whats the reasonable deviation in the measurements 2mm +/-?

 

[SithLord]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

How many millimeters are we talking about?
In other words whats the reasonable deviation in the measurements 2mm +/-?

It will depend on which masks you are comparing. A difference could be fractions of a millimeter, a few millimeters, or more. It really depends on what you are comparing, whether within a family or between families of castings. The images I just posted provide some indication of the degree of difference...it won't be measured in terms of centimeters.

 

[vaderdarth]

Re: A Darth Vader collection thread....

Wow, pretty significant comparison with those two. Not sure I ever saw these pics........cool.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

The necks appear to be different lengths on those comparison pics of the VP versus the TD. How do the details of the face line up in comparison? Aren't there any fiberglassers reading here who can discuss the differences in castings? Ugh.

 

[SithLord]

Look at the size of the crown of the head on the VP vs TD, not hard to miss the size difference. Also look at the height from the top of the eyebrows to the bottom of the mouth triangle. If you line them up it is more apparent.

 

[vader71]

I have seen several castings that all come from a single mold that show deviations like what your showing.
You can pull two masks from the same source mold that have distortions in the dimensions that come close to the cm range.

 

[SithLord]

I have seen several castings that all come from a single mold that show deviations like what your showing.
You can pull two masks from the same source mold that have distortions in the dimensions that come close to the cm range.

A casting cannot be larger than the master. It will only be smaller. A following generation will only be smaller, not larger, than the previous generation. It only works in one direction, and therein lies the trend. If there are cm range deviations between castings taken from the same mold then there was something seriously wrong that happened to the mold, or in the way it was pulled. Mold shrinkage could easily account for that kind of difference but then it wouldn't be a valid comparison. And even if it would, it would only mean a smaller casting, not larger.

In terms of differences approaching a cm or more, things like the neck width can vary, certainly, but those parts of the mold in which there are more complex shapes where angles or lines converge, for example, will show less variation and be more stable. Warpage is something that can certainly happen, but if that was the case, then the trend I've seen would not have happened. I don't look at neck width or height of the casting, for example, as an indicator of size because for obvious reasons those can vary on account of trimming or on how the casting came out of the mold. But distortions in the face itself are much less common. And if they are, they would then stand out in terms of proportionality to other castings from that mold. Your argument perhaps is that such variability would discount the trend I've seen. If that were truly the case, then we would see those kinds of errors more often, more representative of the typical casting, and therefore more variation in the key measures. And we don't.

I'll add that size of the copies from the master casting is secondary to the size of the master itself, it is the master casting itself that is important. I don't care if the copies vary, as long as I have a representative measure of the size of those copies and the size of the master. Granted we cannot always know the size of the master, but again that is why it is important to obtain as many measurements from as many different castings from different sources as possible.

So, one could argue all day about what could possibly happen to a casting coming out of the mold or to the mold itself. In the final analysis, the trend in size as I have determined holds up in terms of lineage, in terms of those castings coming from similar molds, in terms of castings coming from similar sources, and even in terms of the year in which a casting came from a particular mold.

That actually brought to mind something, I could make another tree based on casting size....then one could compare size with lineage.It would be obvious that they are related.

 

[runnriottt]

RRV2 with the same face and the Stone dome. This is what will be offered by the new owner, as I have sold it.

I can say that the TD is far far larger overall than any other mask I have seen and held. There are things that just jump at you when you compare them face to face. Pictures dont do you justice.

The JB is not even in the same league, nor the SPFX. Really, not to knock the DS 20th C either, but again, trumped.

NIce looking chart SL if I had not said so. With your permission I would like to cross post it to the SLD...