4 foot Jupiter 2 - Anyone know how the gear worked

Discussion in 'Studio Scale Models' started by y3a, Dec 3, 2005.

  1. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    I just acquired a 4 foot hull 2nd generation cast of the LIS Jupiter 2. While I have most all the photos, and even a DVD that shows the remains of what was inside, I was wondering if any source exists (like a drawing) of the landing gear rigging inside the model. I know it used some sort of pully system, as the footpad doors are also opened this way, but I would like to know how the original Hero was set up.

    I'm building mine as it looked in "The Derelict" episode. I already know how the fusion core and bubble lights work, and have started planning the cockpit and figures, but instead of having to design a system to work the gear I was hoping somebody actually knew.
     
  2. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    Hey Guy,

    Sorry to say, I don't have the info you're looking for. But, I'm also interested. That was a cool landing gear.
     
  3. BrundelFly

    BrundelFly Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    PM sent.

    I have what you need.
     
  4. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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  5. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    IF you're handing them out ... :confused

    :love
     
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  6. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    Just HAVING the legs and footpads is one thing, but the mechanics of sliding the footpad doors open, and then dropping the gearlegs into position and them being able to support the saucer when it's lowered to the ground is another.

    My test model, a 2 foot Lunar Models Jupiter 2 can't quite support itself with the current RC battery. When I add the 2000mAh battery, it should, since for that model the servos actually hold the model up.

    I am planning for a diferent system for the 4 foot job. The footpad doors will work almost like the original Hero, but the gear legs themselves, I may try something based on the SFM model.

    It's a shame that the originals were gutted and used for SCENERY in "City Beneath the Sea"
    and in the mean time some of the parts walked, and the guys that built and rigged it were gone too.


    Nice to see YOU here Jupiter 2.
     
  7. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    With respect to the problem of the deployed gear holding up, you might consider using a single-thread worm and gear. They are very commonly used in electric train drives, especially in the smaller scales. You'll note that the wheels cannot be turned by hand, yet they run very smoothly, under power.
     
  8. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    The day the guys at Icons received the four foot model I was there and figured out how to lower the gear for them, but I sure don't remember what the gearing looked like.

    This is a site that sort of show it.

    http://www.lostintoys.com/museum/j2prop.html
     
  9. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    I don't have high-enough quality video to properly study the footpad door operation. It appears to me, that the doors have two motions: they pull straight back from the hull surface, then slide laterally. How does it look to you?

    As for synching the operations, at this point I'm looking at using cams and followers. With the space you have, a similar rotary electric switch could be used. But, I agree: I'd love to know how it was done originally, in the hero.
     
  10. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    I "Think" they used a thin chain rigged thru 9-12 pully wheels around the perimiter of the saucer. It was pulled back n forth by some sort of motor/gearbox. The chain went under the 'cockpit'. The pad doors are on slightly inclined sliding frames and one end of the pad door is beveled some for clearance. I think they used a spring return to close the doors again. You can see the pully wheels at the tip of the gear 'arm' and in the gear well, so the cable pulled them into place - probably with some sort of slack built in so the doors would open first before the gear dropped, and after they were up again. I need to flip the image of the top of the model to verify the positions of 3 mounting spots(?) that could be for the gear as well. If they are aligned with the gear I say we have another piece of the puzzle intact.

    I have read 'somewhere' that the 3 wires supporting the model went to a control box. This was for the gear raising & Lowering. One support wire was ground, and teh other two were hots for different circuits. I think the lights were supposed to be powered from large 6v batteries mounted inside, and 2 platforms inside the Hero DO suggest that.


    The lightshows in the model changed over the course of the show. The first few shots show 6 lightbulbs spinning inside the fusion core, and later 1 and then 2 were burned out. The Hero used for the Pod dropping sequence seemed to have a chaser, and pictures of this fusion core are on the web for all to see.

    The bubble had a common drive shaft in the early version(as seen in "The Derelict" episode) that connected the spinning lights in the core to a reflective circle of tin(?) bent into a "V" shape and lit by 6 light bulbs from well under the "Spinner". the 3 top hatches work on the Hero but the one closest to the 'door' on the side doesn't appear to give acces to the inner workings.

    I hope to have more answers soon...
     
  11. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    Firstly, thank you very much, for sharing this.

    From what you have described, this is how I figure the landing gear worked: the pad door springs were set to open the doors, and there were return springs to retract the gear legs. This way, deploying or retracting, there would be tension on the gear leg chain in one direction.

    From the retracted position, the closing tension would first be let go, and the doors would open. Then, as the tension shifts, the gear legs would be pulled down, until a stop is hit. The cable and drive gears would lock the gear down.

    From the deployed position, as opening tension is relaxed, the gear legs retract themselves first, then the tension shifts, and the doors are pulled shut.

    This is just a hypothesis, of course.
     
  12. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    From your statement, and the Azarian photo, it sounds like the doors simply slid open and closed. If you would, please describe more precisely where the clearance bevel is.

    Also, when the doors are fully closed, are they flush with the hull surface?
     
  13. Jet Beetle

    Jet Beetle Sr Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    any pics of the 4footer -- I'd love to see what one looks like.
     
  14. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    Personally , I am very impressed that you can extract all these intricate details just from old photographs and video. :eek

    I'd love to be able to see your video analysis and renderings in person to see how you do it. :confused

    I find it most fascinating. :thumbsup
     
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  15. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    Here is a glimpse of the foot pad door , slide rail and pulley that operated the rear landing gear :

    [​IMG]

    Does this help?

    What can you decipher from this?
     
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  16. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    Try the link in post #8 above, and also Mike's Jup2.com site.
     
  17. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    I have extracted the video file from a copy of the Jupiter 2 Autopsy, and used a "Sharpen" filter on it using Apples Final Cut application. The more I look at it The more the door HAS to be spring loaded to close. The angle of the ramp make it need a bevel on the door side closest to the ramp. either that or the initial tug on the cable pulld the door up as well. perhaps the ramps used to pivot?

    The legs were pulled by cable into the down position, so they used a spring for the return. I hope to work on my 5 layered Photoshop thing showing positions and all and side illustrations of the disimilar gear well sides etc.

    I thought the Azarian J2 arrived without ANY legs, an oversized bubble, and lots of little holes all over the top.
     
  18. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    Hi Mike,
    Are you talking to me, or Y3a?

    Thanks so much, for all the great Jupiter 2 material on your site, BTW.
     
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  19. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    Cool software toys.


    So did I ... and all photos of the Hero at Icons (at least of what I have seen) show the Hero legless. Mike (micdav that posted earlier about being at Icons ) should be able to answer this one for us ... hint hint ;) I cannot decipher if Azarian had 1 reproduction leg or three . Greenwood mentions that landing gear would need to be fabricated , during the restoration process, the one leg on the museum link is an obvious fabrication and not original .. whether that was one of Greenwoods and if it was 1 of 3 I don't know.

    It's pretty moot now since Azarian has since purchased at least TWO of the original landing gear , not sure if he has the third or not ...

    The bubble , original one that is , was obviously lost during the City Beneath The Sea Massacre and like the leg(s) inferior fabrication in it's place.

    While were at it , the fusion core on it at Icons was a fabricated one too. Not sure if Azarian purchased the original core or not when he purchased the landing gear.... actually , no he did not - because it sits right now at the bottom of Space Needle.

    All this stuff is why he doesn't permit me to post images from link in Post #8 on Jup2.com .

    Not sure to what you are refering to when you say "lots of little holes all over the top" ... ?
     
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  20. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    You may be right, but then the doors would tend to close before, or during, the gear retraction. What would hold them open?
     
  21. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    Thanks. I'm talking to you , Y , everyone and anyone. :)
     
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  22. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    I imagine the easing of the tension on the pully cable would allow the springs tension to close the footpad door when so desired.

    But we can wait and see what the "Official" word is from Y . :p lol

    J/K

    But that's my guess.

     
  23. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    Would you please indicate what you mean, by "J/K"? Sorry, for the stupid question.
     
  24. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    J/K means ... Just Kidding :lol
     
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  25. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    Thank you. Me soooo stupid.... :lol
     
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  26. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    np :)

    Ummm... that's short for "no problem". ;)

     
  27. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    OK. The chain is pulled around the inside of the saucer, and pulls the door and leg cables at the same time. The leg cables have some springloaded slack in them so the doors open first. The chain keeps the doors open because they have a spring to add slack after they are open - as if the spring is hooked to the back of the door and to its cable which in turn goes to the chain. after the doors are pulled open, the leg cables pull the legs into down position, and when they get al the way down, a switch stops the chain mechanics. The SPFX guy waits til the gear needs to go up to reverse polarity, or they could simply let a DC motor stall, reversing polarity for the up movement, where the return springs let the legs go up first, and when the cable is released enough the doors would slide shut, helped by a spring used to close the doors. The 3 springs would all be of different strenghts and length. I wonder if the ram had a guide in the gear well, or was attached to the points overhead of the wells??
     
  28. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    I gather by 'ram', you are referring to what I think of as the shock strut.

    Again, my only information comes from videotape of the show. It now appears to me, that the angle of the strut with respect to vertical is greater as the gear leg retracts. As I project the strut centerline inward from two views at opposite end's of the strut's motion, they meet at a point within the upper deck. The only way I can see the strut motion being the same, by being constrained at some point within the gear well, is through the use of some sort of swing linkage.
     
  29. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    Here is a glimpse of the foot pad door , slide rail and pulley that operated the rear landing gear :

    [​IMG]

    Does this help?

    What can you decipher from this?

    [snapback]1137416[/snapback]​
    [/quote]

    Mike,
    I'm having problems making things out in this picture, I'm afraid. It appears one finger is holding up a rod, to which the door is attached. The door appears to have a slot in it, to the left of the rod. I see the inclined door track, but no pulley. I do see a disconnected bell crank, though.

    Is this assembly shown in-place, inside the hull? Also, I'm curious about the purpose of the '7' shaped piece. Is this to hold the pad in position, so as not to interfere with the door, to electrically trigger something, or what?
     
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  30. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    OK heres the composited image...

    the top is from the Autopsy Video and was flipped to match the rest of the image as seen from the top.

    The top sides is from MY HERO cast.

    The bottom is also MY HERO cast, but the image was flipped to match the positions as seen from above.

    I had to tamper with each layers transparency to get it to look THIS GOOD. Jeez.

    [​IMG]
     
  31. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    Many thanks, again. You really solved the biggest part of the mystery, here.

    The use of the springs is interesting. It would provide a subtle force on the sliding doors, insuring a smooth motion- as long as the mechanism is relatively low-friction.

    As for the door motion, I'd still like to know whether there is any in/out opening/closing motion, in addition to the sideways sliding. And, if so, specifically how it is achieved.
     
  32. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    Thanks for the imagery Y - pretty cool. :thumbsup

    I got a question though ... All the flipping around and rotating and 3 level rendering ... I've somewhat lost my bearings here ...

    Granted the Hero did not have a main hatch ... the pod bay doors should be on the same side of the ship as the main hatch , you can see Jay pointing to it's location on the Hero here:

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    But looking at your layered photo the pod bay is on the opposite side of the ship from the main hatch.

    What I am wondering if this is just my confusion of grasping your layering or if on your hull the pod doors are indeed on the opposite side of the ship from the main hatch?



     
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  33. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    I always ask you this question Y , forgive me for asking it again... :rolleyes

    You said the leg cables have some spring loaded slack in them ... matter of factly.

    What I am wondering is IF this is something Jay (or anyone else) told you they observed from actually viewing the Hero and observing "springs" OR is this your conclussion based on your personal observations and renderings theories , etc... ?

    I'm starting to feel like Hooper here from JAWS ... but . I'm not saying you are wrong , and I think you are probably correct ... but can you really speak so "factually" about it to present it as "This is how it was done." ? :angel
     
  34. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    Well.......... you see pulley wheels on the end of the legs and the "A" frame thing across the gear wells. they line up and can only be used to lower the gear, otherwise the "A" frame wouldn't need to be there. If a chain was used (no slack in a chain) then the fact that the doors open first then you had to have some delay in the mechanical system. Slack in the cable that pulls the gear down is the only place to do it. I think it was springs as it's most simple. A week spring could taake up the slack so the cable would stilll set into the groove of the pulley wheel seems logical. There is NOTHING in the Hero on the tape so all is speculation, but what IS known from the legs and all is how it most likely worked. The door ramps don't seem to pivot, so either they had a bevel on the doors themselves, or the angle of the cable pulled the door away from the hole first, but then HOW did it happen when closing?
     
  35. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    [snapback]1140209[/snapback]​
    A week spring could taake up the slack so the cable would stilll set into the groove of the pulley wheel seems logical.
    [snapback]1140219[/snapback]​

    Um, if the spring in the leg deployment line was weak, how could the gear hold up the model's weight? Not that it would have to, with the suspension lines holding the ship.

    If that was the case, how many four-footer owners would want such a gear?
     
  36. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    Was the hero originally built with it's hull in two parts? If so, how were the two halves held together?

    Also, I notice the pad doors recessed in this picture. But, they don't match the hull color.
     
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  37. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    The weak spring is only to hold some of the cable slack, after the cable and spring become pulled enough to pull the spring out to the length of the slack(no more slack) then the leg would be pulled into the down position. The strength of the cable, and the pulley arrangement would hold the model up...
     
  38. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    OK YOU'RE RIGHT...


    Stupid me... I flipped it TWICE in the process.


    FIXINATED...


    BTW - The cable to the gear leg...
    Picture this. A 3 foot long steel cable with one end of a weak spring crimped onto the line 1 foot in. the spring is 2 inches long compressed. Seven inches of cable are measured off, and a second crimp, with the other end of the spring is attached. You pull the spring out to the 7" spot, and no more springy, because cable is now tight. The spring to pull the gear back up doesn't need to be THAT strong.
     
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  39. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    The door ramps don't seem to pivot, so either they had a bevel on the doors themselves, or the angle of the cable pulled the door away from the hole first, but then HOW did it happen when closing?
    [snapback]1140219[/snapback]​


    The in/out motion, if that's what it is, seems very smooth. Is the outer, visible part of the door backed by anything? I would not imagine the visible surface would be subject to any contact with it's motion gear.
     
  40. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    OK... Here's what I think I saw on the J2 Autopsy DVD...

    The doors are actually one that you see from the outside attached by a single pipe/bar/point to another that rides up n down the ramp. The bar has an end sticking out of the upper door like a large bolt. IF the cable it attached to this, and the other end is at a high enough angle, it would lift the door up before moving it out of the way. In reverse, the door would just fall back into position.

    I've watched the J2"A" tape a bunch of times. Also the "T" thing is one side of the pulley bracket that holds the second pulley wheel. The cable is attached to the "A" goes thru the pulley wheel on the leg, and back to the "A" frames pulley wheel, and then to the main chain. (assuming the chain system is what was used)
     
  41. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    OK... Here's what I think I saw on the J2 Autopsy DVD...

    The doors are actually one that you see from the outside attached by a single pipe/bar/point to another that rides up n down the ramp. The bar has an end sticking out of the upper door like a large bolt. IF the cable it attached to this, and the other end is at a high enough angle, it would lift the door up before moving it out of the way. In reverse, the door would just fall back into position.
    [snapback]1141158[/snapback]​


    That would seem to suggest that the cable runs right across the path of the retracting/deploying landing gear pad.
     
  42. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    No, the angle of the cable isn't that important. It most likely goes toward the chain to the left as seen from above. The return springs must be part of the ramp. The post must be square to keep the bottom door angle correct.

    I'm working on a set of drarwin's to show my ideas.
     
  43. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    Sorry I come and go in a flurry here - Christmas and all leaves me little time to follow the thread consistantly. :cry

    Thanks for defining this Y , as for me personally , when things of this nature get on a roll , I like to step back a bit and get a clear perspective on what is "Fact" and what is "Hypothesis" just because the two begin to meld together .

    I do not mean to say any such idea , theory or fact is wrong , or even be questioning it ... all I am doing when I ask is try to keep clear what is 100% actual Fact and what is not. :angel

    PLUS with the earlier post by Brundlefly at the begining of this thread ,saying that he had the information that you needed , in response to your inquiry on anyone with knowledge of how the insides of the Hero J2 worked .... well I didn't know if you had NEW information that substantiated your descriptions. :)

    Thanks too for putting the pod doors on the correct side ... after I posted that I had a feeling you told me sometime earlier that your hull DID have bay doors (scribed only) and that you were going to fill them in anways .. I just couldn't remember if you said it was on the correct side (by correct I mean on the same side as Jein's J2 which had the working pod bay doors - which was the same side as the main hatch) or on the other side as suggested by the upper deck interior set location of the space pod bay.

    Could you clear that one up for me please? Are your hull's pod doors on the hatch side or the other?

    Thanks. :thumbsup

     
  44. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    Yes , I'll confess , if it isn't already obviously apparant :confused I don't have enough imagination to fully envision ("picture this") all your mechanical descriptions and ALSO I really am not so mechanically inclined ... I was going to say "I hope you will make up some drawings of this stuff so that we can all (me especially) fully grasp your design ideas" - so I am very glad you offered before I had to ask. :D

    Look forward to those.
     
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  45. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    Y3a :

    What's the WIDTH of the scribed main hatch on your 4 foot J2?

    Thanks. :)

     
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  46. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    Didn't Lydecker or someone mention in a book or interview or something that the J2 was supported by WIRES , like a "puppet", and that the landing gear did NOT support the weight ( or even "lock" into place) of the saucer , that was done by wires?

    And there was even evidence of this because you could see the miniature somewhat bounce , or sag, when it landed... ?

    Am I imagining all that? :unsure

    Sound familiar to anyone ?

     
  47. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    That is a good question toyroy. I've asked that one before too. ;) lol

    I have not been able to deduct whether the top was chopped off for modifications to be done for City Beneath The Sea , or if that was how it was during the run of LIS.

    I have never been able to ask Greg J. personally if the pod dropper J2 also had a removable top like the Hero did , but others have told me they were almost positive that it did too.

    Of course that doesn't help answer whether it was for LIS or later for CBTS.

    We see tabs along the inside perimeter of the lower hull which the top rests on ... I am not sure if it was locked into place with screws and then puttied over or if it just floated there. If it just floated , then obviously the support wires had to be fastened to the lower portion of the hull and not the upper portion or it'd pop it's top when off it'sl legs.

    I'm sure Y has more insight to all of this.

    Why the footpads are a different color than the hull.

    The J2A pics we see , it has been already partially restored by Greenwood , the cut outs had already been patched and the hull at least primed because we don't really see the patches on the exterior. When you look at the main view port with it's crash doors in the closed position , you can see that it still retained the goldish color that they painted the prop for use in City Beneath The Sea ...

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    So that explains why the footpads are a different color than the hull at that time ... they probably primed the hull after patching the holes, but did so with the footpads and crash windows in the OPEN positions.

     
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  48. toyroy

    toyroy Active Member

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    Didn't Lydecker or someone mention in a book or interview or something that the J2 was supported by WIRES , like a "puppet", and that the landing gear did NOT support the weight ( or even "lock" into place) of the saucer , that was done by wires?

    And there was even evidence of this because you could see the miniature somewhat bounce , or sag, when it landed... ?

    Am I imagining all that? :unsure

    Sound familiar to anyone ?

    [snapback]1141458[/snapback]​
    There is a 'shock absorber' effect apparent in "The Derelict" landing. It is NOT, in the color 'circle' landing- one pad touches down first, but the leg appears locked, while the ship tilts onto the other pads. None of the legs seem to give any. This may suggest a change, in the internal gear.
     
  49. Jupiter-2

    Jupiter-2 New Member

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    Have to admit I haven't viewed the yellow circle film version in about 30 years ... :confused

    Can you tell me which season and what the episode name that scene is from?

    I still don't have S3 yet , I'm hoping it's from a S2 episode.... :angel

     
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  50. y3a

    y3a Well-Known Member

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    4 1/4 inch wide at the top
    5 3/4 inch wide at the bottom
    9 1/8 inch long at the sides.
     
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