11th Doctor's Sonic: "Fatally Flawed" Design? Discuss...

Discussion in 'Replica Props' started by Jack T Chance, Jan 19, 2012.

  1. Jack T Chance

    Jack T Chance Sr Member

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    This is a topic that I mentioned briefly on the QMx Sonic thread, but I'm spinning it off into its own thread so as not to derail that thread with discussion of things other than QMx's actual products.

    As some of you are no doubt aware, there are a few people here and there on the interwebz that have been lucky enough to get a very rare opportunity to handle, inspect, and in some cases measure some of the filming props from Doctor Who, including the 11th Doctor's Sonic Screwdriver. And what they have told us, in regards to the 11th Doctor's Sonic, is this...

    Over time, possibly a relatively short period of time, flicking the 11th Doctor's Sonic open (as we see Matt Smith doing ALL THE TIME in the show) can produce enough of a shearing force that it can fracture the acrylic in the prop, and can also break the prop's internal metal guide tube. One individual that handled it even expressed the opinion that the design is fatally flawed. Teisco has confirmed this for us...
    And we also have seen additional info on this subject from both Asp9mm...
    ...and also VortexRunner...
    I had originally quoted the source that stated the opinion that the design is fatally flawed, but I have now been informed that I was wrong to do so, therefore the quote was removed and I am editing my posts to reference different sources.

    ...quote from banned member's blog removed...

    So, first things first: This is absolutely NOT a topic that's being created for the purpose of encouraging people to buy unlicensed prop replicas. It is also NOT being created to discourage them from doing so. Nor is it being created to condemn anyone for their personal choices in either regard. In fact, I am hereby FORBIDDING such discussions in this topic, as that's NOT what this thread is about.

    This thread is here SOLELY for the purpose of discussing the perceived flaw in the design of the hero props used in the filming of the TV series, and the difficulties of making an accurate replica, which can be "played with" in the way that fans will want to, that arise from that perceived flaw. And I would thank everyone that participates in this topic for staying on topic. ;)

    So... that's it, really. 11's Sonic: Fatally flawed design? Discuss.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  2. GeneralFROSTY

    GeneralFROSTY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I can see why this prop is known to 'break' often. Remember, it is just a 'prop' - so the actual engineering that went into it was not intended to be a fully functional, wear n tear tested practical accesory. It does it's job on-screen and is replaced when it breaks - just like all other props.
    I'ts just a pipe dream, but I would love to see behind the scenes footage of this prop being used and repaired.
     
  3. phez

    phez Sr Member

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    This thread will go away faster if I just stop, have at it :):):)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  4. masterjedi322

    masterjedi322 Sr Member

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    Without seeing the internals of the prop, it's difficult to say whether the design has some engineering flaw. It certainly makes me wonder about the four thousand dollar pieces Qmx is selling, and how many seriously agitated customers they will have if those pieces start breaking after some handling...

    Sean
     
  5. LeAngeSolitaire

    LeAngeSolitaire Well-Known Member

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    Pretty arrogant of you offer to 'clear this topic up' considering that some people have examined the prop and are in a lot better position to comment than you are.
     
  6. phez

    phez Sr Member

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    :) :) :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  7. LeAngeSolitaire

    LeAngeSolitaire Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone ever said the prop 'falls apart in your hands'. Merely long term durability when flicking it open forcefully was questioned and validly. Saying that the SDCC replica was 'rock solid' is hardly proof. Were you there? I know people who were there who tell me that the sonic broke several times. Having the prop in the possession of the guy who made it, with a box of spare parts and tools, in case it does break, is hardly a fair test of durability because it is in his interest to make sure the prop is in tip top condition between handlings. Out of curiousity, what qualifies you to be some kind of authority in these props? Personally I'll take the word of a guy who has documented these props over another yet another internet 'expert'.
     
  8. Usagi Pilgrim

    Usagi Pilgrim Sr Member

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    I have no "inside" information at all about the prop. What I do have is access to all the postings that Phez has made about anything & everything. You, sir, deserve anything & everything that is ever been typed about you.

    Nothing more to contribute except for my "expert" opinion on what it means to be a Know-it-all idiot with a inflated idea of self-worth.

    My credentials that make me an expert on the subject ?


    I can read.
     
  9. Teisco

    Teisco New Member

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    I was allowed to examine the 11th sonic at the past Dragoncon. A sonic built by Nick himself and it was, indeed, broken by the second day of the con due to people flicking it open and closed.
     
  10. LeAngeSolitaire

    LeAngeSolitaire Well-Known Member

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    1st hand account from an eyewitness.

    Sure you must have been hallucinating? It was a Nick Robatto sonic and therefore is indestructible. :rolleyes
     
  11. phez

    phez Sr Member

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    :) :) :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  12. Usagi Pilgrim

    Usagi Pilgrim Sr Member

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    Wait for it...


    Someone is about to-

    1. Fold their arms

    2. Close their eyes

    3. Furiously shake their head

    4. Repeat, "UH-UHH" until they get their way


    Won't be long now.
     
  13. Usagi Pilgrim

    Usagi Pilgrim Sr Member

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    It happened while I was typing...
     
  14. mooneye63

    mooneye63 Active Member

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    Intersting that there has been a lot of editing on this thread. If people spout off infowhy not back it up or at least apologise if they have something wrong. Luckily you can read some of the edits in other peoples posts or via the profile of said member!
     
  15. MattMunson

    MattMunson Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    question: when did the sonic screwdriver replace stormtrooper armor as the prop that launched a thousand inflammatory threads??

    Is it the prop itself, or just the people involved?? It's always the same people in these threads, and they always go berzerk. Kinda weird.
     
    Organic Mechanic likes this.
  16. Asp9mm

    Asp9mm Well-Known Member

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    There is a reason they have five of these props and they are all battered about with spares clearly seen in the storage box. They keep on breaking. The very fact that QMx in their sales blurb mention the way it must be handled speaks volumes about its delicate nature. Remember it is a prop. Even the 9/10th Docs prop kept breaking and was repaired umpteen times.

    I don't know why people are up in arms about this. Most props are delicate in nature and are not supposed to be used as toys.
     
  17. LeAngeSolitaire

    LeAngeSolitaire Well-Known Member

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    To answer your question Matt I think it's when certain unqualified persons start offering to 'clear up a topic' or dismiss the findings of a former member here who has consistently backed up his claims with facts and with proof because of a personal grudge. Because of this it's less about the prop and more about certain members/former member not liking each other.
     
  18. Usagi Pilgrim

    Usagi Pilgrim Sr Member

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    I believe that it's mostly the knee-jerk reactions of Phez to doubt or accuse the statements of others to be lies. Lets be honest, if I say something & you don't believe it, you are calling me a liar. Many here seem to have a thin skin when it comes to being cursed at, or being called out when they have no evidence, & I have to admit that I wouldn't like it, but as a man, I can stand that a lot more than being called a liar.


    Time after time, proof is offered & backed up by members in good standing & by banned members, but the prevailing idea here is- If we keep saying the same thing, even in the face of opposing evidence, it will eventually become true.

    BULL...

    I particularly LOVE the fact that Phez says if he stops & apparently deletes all his opinions, the thread will go away...

    well, Phez...the thread hasn't, but evidently YOU have.
     
  19. VortexRunner

    VortexRunner Active Member

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    In interviews such as at the past Comicon, Nick has been asked what he does and it seems from his answers it is mainly the maintenance of the props and of the screwdrivers he made. One of the reasons I avoided buying the QMX release was the fact that the real prop is quite outspokenly fragile. When you have a prop like this screwdriver, the number of components which makes up what you see on screen is so tedious and each part almost hand produced by Nick, you have got to wonder how it is assured of staying in one piece and functioning how it is meant to. I suppose the formula or designs for this sonic would read like the assembly instructions of an engine - everything has to be precise and almost trial and error and hope :lol that it doesn't all fall apart.

    I wouldn't say it is fatally flawed, but given the fact that Nick had a week to make these would add to this idea. Flawed now, but given time and good research and testing I think refining the props would weed out any major flaws.
     
  20. Sundowner

    Sundowner Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I dont know what it is about these sonics that gets folks all fired up! Or more likely its the latter. Egos are huge and no one likes to be wrong. Its human nature to want defend your argument even when you've been proven wrong.

     
  21. Usagi Pilgrim

    Usagi Pilgrim Sr Member

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    Getting back to the prop itself...

    Has anyone ever said if the screwdriver was designed to do what Smith does with it? I know when a new Doctor is cast, he's given a fair amount of room to make his character unique. I've sometimes wondered if the prop wasn't presented to Smith, with a "Here you go mate. See what you can do with it."

    It is truly a dramatic way to show the screwdriver in action, but maybe it wasn't designed to be used that...harshly. With Smith being the "talent", maybe no one has said, "Can you maybe not do that ?".

    I have a wonderfully designed & built Eccleston sonic, & I have to admit, if I were to repeatedly extend it by flicking it out like Smith does his, it probably would not last too long.

    Just wondering if anyone had any idea on who said "This is how it's used."
     
  22. defstartrooper

    defstartrooper Sr Member

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    ........
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  23. Jack T Chance

    Jack T Chance Sr Member

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    *SIGH!*

    Fine, no quote, I'll just PARAPHRASE the info that was given IN MY OWN WORDS... info that has now been confirmed by people that handled one of Nick Robatto's props at Dragon*Con (as you can see below)...

    Over time, possibly a relatively short period of time, flicking the 11th Doctor's Sonic open (as we see Matt Smith doing ALL THE TIME in the show) can produce enough of a shearing force that it can fracture the acrylic in the prop, and can also break the prop's internal metal guide tube. Teisco has confirmed this for us...
    People complained about the way Character Options redesigns these props for their toy replicas, often getting the dimensions wrong in turning it into a toy that can be played with and has built-in light and sound, but as I haven't heard anyone complaining about their CO 11th Doctor Sonic breaking like this, I'd say they've obviously come up with an engineering solution that solves the problem for their toy replica. It may be as simple as the materials used; the plastics they use on the toy may simply be better suited to handling the stress of being flicked open repeatedly. All of which reminds me that I really need to get around to buying one of those! :cool
    They're up in arms because of the SOURCE of the first independent confirmation of this flaw (at least the first confirmation that I'm aware of,) that's what it boils down to. :unsure

    To use an analogy appropriate to myself... it would be like me coming into a thread about some big, huge movie news, and flaming and spewing venom solely because the info came from Harry Knowles and his site Ain't It Cool News. I HATE that site... no, hate isn't strong enough of a word... I LOATHE it! One of my earliest BAD internet experiences was being a member of the Talkback Forum there, and I'll never forget it. Not only that, but there were some fairly noteworthy people that ran other famous movie news sites, that had there fair share of issues with Knowles and his site, with the way he does things and the way he treats people. I make it a point to avoid his site like the Black Plague... but if he gets a genuine scoop and if it's legitimate news, I'm not gonna come into a topic about it and flame the topic just because the news came from him.

    The same applies here for all who post in this thread.
    In fact, I specifically stated that this thread was NOT to be about that. If people start using this thread for the wrong purpose, i.e. derailing the topic at hand to rant about the source of the info that started this discussion, I WILL be reporting those posts to the mods. So stay on topic. This thread is NOT about the individual that posted said info. Do NOT make this a discussion about him! [​IMG]

    This topic is to be about discussing THE PROP ITSELF. Period. You have all been warned.

    Now, back ON topic...
    I'm glad you brought that up. From QMx's info on their Artisan Master Series 11th Doctor's Sonic Screwdriver:
    I knew it was complex, but I had no idea it took 148 parts to make one! Holy shnikes! No wonder it takes 2 weeks to assemble! He has to put all those small parts together by hand! And here I thought the previous model of Sonic Screwdriver was complex! :eek

    I do find it curious, though, their claim of "contains no found objects" (except for screws and electronic components,) as I'm fairly certain that various people all over the interwebz were pretty confident that the ivory piece in the handle WAS a found object and that they had identified what it most likely is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  24. GeneralFROSTY

    GeneralFROSTY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I can somehow see this thread getting locked at some point if things get out of hand.
    Though I will agree with Matt, the topic of Sonics seems to virtually rival the intensity of Trooper armor.
    Part of this, I believe, is because there is SO much love for these props. It's almost like talking about religion or politics - people are going to get argumentive at some point.

    But sticking to the topic at hand, I believe sufficient examples of the 11th sonics fragility has been presented and I for one concur that it is a fragile prop (but few movie props are built tough anyway, so no surprise there) so the question is - how do you improve the design of the prop to not simply function as a PROP but function as a TOY (meaning it is designed to take some use and abuse without fail).?
     
  25. LeAngeSolitaire

    LeAngeSolitaire Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I know of that is designed to be flicked in this manner is a metal telescopic baton. I'm no expert but even I can see that flicking something like this open when the main bit in the middle taking the brunt of this force is hollow acrylic is a recipe for bad news.
     
  26. Asp9mm

    Asp9mm Well-Known Member

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    Was it originally designed to be flicked open though? Or was it something Smith incorporated into his use of the prop? He handled the old sonic very differently by pulling the emitter out of the body and not using the slider. Plus his viewing of both the old and new sonic as if there is an information screen on the tube is his own take on how it should be used.
     
  27. LeAngeSolitaire

    LeAngeSolitaire Well-Known Member

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    That sounds reasonable. Looking at the knurling on the prop, I don't think it's entirely decorative and might have been a clue to how it should have been used.
     
  28. Usagi Pilgrim

    Usagi Pilgrim Sr Member

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    That's what I was asking, was the problem in the design or in Smith's use of the prop ? I remember an early clip of Smith on the Johnathan Ross show before the 1st episode premiered. He was flipping it & flicking it out saying "It does this & that & you read it like this..." & so on. Was he handed that prop with instructions or told that whatever he felt comfortable with was OK? Anyone know for sure?


    I also have to apologize to the OP for letting my temper get the best of me. I Jumped on the one I was fed up with for trying to derail the thread, & I contributed to doing just that.

    Sorry Jack.
     
  29. VortexRunner

    VortexRunner Active Member

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    I think any actor filling the role of such a character would just naturally add it to his act when he got the screwdriver. I doubt he was given any instructions on what each part did other than the obvious button activation...
     
  30. GeneralFROSTY

    GeneralFROSTY Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Makes you kind of wonder if they could just make a "stunt" version on the show that is specifically used for flicking open. Is it my understanding that there are only the "hero" versions used on the show.
     
  31. Primrodo

    Primrodo Sr Member

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    Great point about the knurling! I wonder as well if the activation was initially intended to be manual and not a flick! Maybe Nick can chime in on that. Its always interesting how something is intended to be used and actually....but maybe it was always intended to flick too.

    I would be interested in knowing!
     
  32. modernboy

    modernboy Active Member

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    This theory is quite possible. There is actually a button on the bottom of the sonic because they expected Matt to wield it more like one might hold a flash light...thumb on the bottom center gripped (there's a photo somewhere of Beth Willis holding it this way. I'll keep looking for it) but Matt decided he was into holding it that way so a button had to be added to the side for him to use. Nick actually told me this himself at SDCC.
     
  33. E-Wan

    E-Wan Sr Member

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    Wow! Good info - I never knew that.
     
  34. Rebelscum

    Rebelscum Sr Member

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    I was there in the qmx booth with Nick almost every hour of the show. I never saw it break once. Maybe it did in one of the maybe 6 hours I wasn't in the booth, and maybe he fixed it, but I don't think it broke several times and I don't think you know people who actually saw it break . Certainly, no several times. There weren't even people that came back that often. A few did, but not many, and it certainly wasn't breaking each time they came back. They may say they did, but I was there, and I'll say it didn't happen.
     
  35. LeAngeSolitaire

    LeAngeSolitaire Well-Known Member

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    So you were there by his side constantly, on every occasion that he handed the prop out for demo except for 6 hours? I hate to rain on your bromance but I really don't buy that.

    The other thing I am objecting to is you calling me a liar. Sorry Phil, but that's out of line. I do know people who attended SDCC 2011 and I do believe them when they said they saw it break.

    On a related note here's Matt telling everyone how he breaks one sonic per day:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XekbsWqrrDs
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  36. Organic Mechanic

    Organic Mechanic Sr Member

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    I've got an idea! Why don't all of us SS lovers get together so we can just punch each other in the face and be done with it?
     
  37. Rebelscum

    Rebelscum Sr Member

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    I haven't called you a liar. I have only said people (meaning more than 2) did not see the sonic break several (meaning more than twice) times. People may very well have told you they saw it break several times. I don't believe those people did see this.

    I have no idea if you were or were not told this story by people so, not only would I be unable to call you a liar, it wouldn't ever be something I'd do.

    I was there as I built the TARDIS that was on the end of the booth and I was engaged to baby sit it. This is exactly where Nick was with his Sonics, in the end display cabinet. Many times, I personally showed the Sonics when Nick was away. I was there much more than Nick as well.

    I'd suggest that since you weren't there, you might consider that you really don't know anything that happened there. You only have heresay and you should temper your comments based on that fact.
     
  38. NakedMoleRat

    NakedMoleRat Sr Member

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    Philip,
    Let me say this! If I had access to the prop, unattended...

    Let's just say, I would have an 11th Doctor's sonic in my pocket while I was in my shop building a second TARDIS! :lol

    Okay, not really, but it would have been tempting!
     
  39. Organic Mechanic

    Organic Mechanic Sr Member

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    Right?!?!

    Betcha my calipers would have gotten a work out though. :love
     
  40. Jack T Chance

    Jack T Chance Sr Member

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    Given the concern over my initial source for the info that inspired this thread, I have now edited my first post. I hope that in some way this relieves some of the Mods' concerns over this thread. :unsure
     
    Organic Mechanic likes this.
  41. MattMunson

    MattMunson Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Dude, slow your roll. While I know it's fun to stick with unsubstantiated beliefs (especially when they are your own) you're just dead wrong in this case. Check your facts. Philip was IN THE BOOTH, right next to Nick for almost the entire comic con. EVERY time I went to the QMX booth, he was there, literally standing right behind the sonics. While Philip needs no defending, nor do his claims, you're just coming off sounding like an uninformed whiner right now. If anything, I'm trying to help you.

    If philip says he didn't see them break, take it as truth.

    I assume you were NOT there??

    Also, for the record, i DID handle the 11th sonic, DID flick it, and it did NOT break.
     
  42. MattMunson

    MattMunson Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Now THERE is a new idea to the internet!!!! :D Though I doubt it will gain any traction.
     
  43. LeAngeSolitaire

    LeAngeSolitaire Well-Known Member

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    Matt, I wasn't there but if friends tell me they saw something I believe them. Guess someone is lying/mistaken. Instead of arguing the accuracy of these claims why don't we just ask Nick? I think we have established that the sonic doesn't break every time the sonic is flicked but the fact that it does and has with incorrect handling.
     
  44. MattMunson

    MattMunson Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    You're doing it again. You're accusing philip of lying. Don't try to weasel around it, that's what you're doing.

    Here, let me give you a quick fact rundown, for your reference:

    Philip was there almost the entire con, within about four feet of the sonics.
    I saw philip in the booth every time I walked by, which was many times.
    I handled the sonic, flicked it, it didn't break.
    Philip says he did not see them break.
    You were not there.
    You have second hand info from friends who say they WERE there, and saw them break frequently.

    Do the math.

    You've got it backwards, by the way. The burden of proof falls on you, as you were not there, and have only second hand info. So far, we've got a few eye witnesses to contradict your claims. Do try to be reasonable.

    And again, let me be clear: reign in the veiled insults at respected board members. I understand that you are clinging to your second hand info, though I don't know why. However, the proper way to substantiate your claims is not to attack the word of a respected board member who has contributed A LOT more to this forum than his opinion, but is instead to present credible evidence of your own.
     
  45. greatwazoo42

    greatwazoo42 Sr Member

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    I LOL'ed. :lol Bad Zoot! Naughty Zoot!
     
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  46. LeAngeSolitaire

    LeAngeSolitaire Well-Known Member

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    Ok, let me put it this way, if your friends tell you something would you call them liars? Because that's what it boils down to. i choose to believe my friends not some guy I don't know. Why are you buying into this? I'm not going to drop it because you want to stick up for your buddy. like I said, let's ask Nick. This arguing the toss is totally derailing Jack's thread.
     
  47. Rebelscum

    Rebelscum Sr Member

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    If I were Nick, I'd stay way away from this because I think you have an axe to grind, you're not going to believe him and will rather believe your friends as already stated, and Nick can only lose in a discussion with somebody like that.

    I'm not here to argue with you at all. I didn't appreciate your saying I called you a liar, thus my reply. I wonder why I even respond frankly.
     
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  48. Rebelscum

    Rebelscum Sr Member

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    To address the OP, I'm reposting on the subject from another thread below. Based on my time there in the booth I wouldn't agree the sonic is fatally flawed. It's certainly not as strong as a major league bat, but then again it has to do more:

    While baby-sitting my TARDIS, I was with Nick in the QMX booth all during Comiccon when Smith's sonic was handled by countless numbers of people, sometimes very differently than it was designed to be and it never failed. Generally, people were encouraged to be careful, but many weren't and some were told to not be too careful or it might not fully deploy (the reason for handling it quickly). I think the main worry was that it would slip out of their hands and it's not designed for that particular stunt.

    The sonic definitely didn't appear to be vulnerable to falling apart unless it was mishandled. Even on the show. Smith definitely puts it to the test nearly episode. It's not hard to image he slips from time to time, or just plain wears it out.

    As I recall, the main change that would have been necessary is the way the battery connected, which wasn't user friendly.

    Considering Nick's demonstrated skill I saw, the design probably doesn't have much, if any, room for improvement, while still working as needed for the show.
     
  49. phez

    phez Sr Member

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    This is completely out of hand.
    I was really hoping that because the thread was so absurd it would just die of natural causes but I guess not.


    You have the balls to come at a guy that is at the top of the industry (and considerate enough to post things he is working on here) and based on blog post from China want him defend the quality of his work. You have got to be ****ing kidding me :angry.

    The subject of this thread is not, "I wonder if the slide on the Sonic ever hangs up" it is "Fatally flawed Design".

    In every single episode Matt Smith throws the Sonic up in the air spinning, back and forth between his hands, across the room to other actors and the most likely reason you can come up with that the Sonic would break (we do not even know from what he said in the video if he is talking about the hero props or the stunts) is because a design flaw in a part that weighs about 6 ounces (about the weight of two butter knives from you kitchen drawer) is hitting the front of the Sonic. Not only that but if this was the case (and it is not) that a world class prop maker could not solve this problem over the span of two years.

    The fact that this thread is here is insulting, embarrising, and really shows the lack of understanding in even simple things when building props.


    Lets assume everyone who has posted about the prop who actually handled it is 100% telling the truth. No one being called a lier. Did your friend have any idea how it got broken? Did the person that stopped at the booth before them try to flick it and hit the floor? I don't think that really matters to your argument does it? If it hit the floor it does not lower the quality of the QMX and show how the bootleg will amazingly overcome this imaginary issue.

    There is one Hero Prototype, two Hero Sonics and two stunts that do not open. Two hero props is completely industry standard and would not be sufficient (or acceptable) if a catastrophic failure of the mechanism was happening twice a day. This is common sense.

    There is nothing new here. The exact same names trashing actual experts (which I do not claim to be one of) and back door attempts to boost the sales of a banned member at the expense of whoever gets in the way as always in these Sonic threads. I think having to attack the design of the original prop because there is nothing else to attack on the QMX has hit a new low point though. :facepalm
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  50. MattMunson

    MattMunson Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I would not expect that. However, faced with overwhelming evidence contrary to your assertions, I would think you would do the smart thing and just let it drop.

    For reference, it's threads like this and pig-headedness like that witnessed herein that lead MANY valued members or guests not to bother posting. Do you REALLY think that Nick would take time out of his busy schedule to not only read this nonsense, but then try to defend himself to a crowd that will accept nothing except confirmation of their suspicions? You attack Philip, who has contributed nothing but AMAZING builds and talents to this board, while your contribution is your opinions on things you know very little about? Do you see why people would want to NEVER come back here again???

    Do the board a favor: go build something. Then post pictures. Then discuss YOUR build and how you did it.


    I will leave this thread to you, as it's clear to me that there's nothing to be gained here. I'll also be sure to keep my HD video of Nick's sonics to myself.
     
    teecrooz likes this.

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