1/350 TOS E is happening.
- Thread starter CessnaDriver
- Start date
Commander Max
Sr Member
Then they make the gridlines so large that it will distort the same decals. So proper alignment would be impossible. Placing decals on a large circular surface would be a cakewalk, when compared to other kits. I would use hand drafting tools and tick marks to align the decals. In the case of this model, I would junk the supplied decals. Then use vinyl lettering, or make vinyl masks and paint the numbers on the model. Using the existing landmarks to position the masks. No grid is necessary, that's why I say it's going to be a real headache with this kit. They are doing more to waste the modeler's time and cause an even bigger deterrence to less experienced modelers.
Their primary interest is to sell as many kits to retailers/distributors as possible. I can only guess at what the number of kits they are producing, but it will be over 10k. 1701 kits is a drop in the bucket in the world of manufacturing.
JMChladek
Sr Member
HUH? I can't believe I just read that. Okay, so maybe YOU can get by without a grid, but a few of us like to have some form of reference when applying decals. If done decals on big clean surfaces and on surfaces with a little detail and I must say, aligning decals is A LOT easier when there is some kind of grid or target, whether it is on the kit already or if I have to draw it on. Can I apply to a clean surface? Yes I can. It can be very easy to screw up the alignment though and in something big, that can look really bad.
Good grief. Some of you guys are freaking out over a couple quick digital pictures of a TEST SHOT. Depending on if that plastic is glossy, it can pick up some weird light reflections and scaling the photo down for a web page can throw its own crap in there as well. Plus, in my experience, white plastic doesn't always photograph well anyway as it can make things look bad while subduing good details (I prefer a nice neutral gray color to plastic).
But, even if the grid is over-accented, to make said recessed grid on said model requires the grid lines to be raised on the molds. They can be reduced before the production kits are made. When many of us get a chance to see the test shots with our own eyes at Wonderfest, then we can give the final determination on if the grid looks too accented or just right.
And if the grid is too much? Well, Gunze Mr. Dissolved putty or some bondo red dissolved in thinner and painted on in a few layers can knock it down (followed by Mr. Surfacer 500 as a final primer layer if little defects still exist). Given the size of the kit, taking care of said grid is going to be rather easy all things considered. Layers of paint and clearcoat can also reduce the grid as well to something potentially more acceptable.
So, what are the legal concerns if one wanted to offer aftermarket gridless saucers?
Commander Max
Sr Member
Here is reference points for the saucer, using the landmarks(not using the bridge as a reference).
On a 'small' model like the 350 E I would solve all of your complaints, with something like this. It would match up to the bridge, and the edge of the saucer. Please note the rectangles and circle on the bottom, those are only there for alignment.
This would cut from adhesive backed vinyl to match the model. It could be cut from masking vinyl(for painting) or cut from black vinyl. So you lay it down and your done(the vinyl will stretch to match the gridlines). The letters are not cut as deeply so they will stay with the vinyl, until you pull the extra vinyl away. Positioning is even simpler, tape the vinyl in position, peel off a corner and tack it down. Then work your way across.
No grids, no ticks, very little work. After all it is what modeling should be. It's only the modelers(and model makers) that make things hard.
Commander Max
Sr Member
From what I understand none, but your talking about replacing the entire saucer. The hard part is matching the PL parts.
fraley1701
Active Member
I personally think too much of a big deal is being made regarding the grid. It doesn't bother me in the least bit and I am surely going to buy this kit! Like Jay stated earlier, if I think the grid lines are too pronounced, I can always take care of it with some filler and primer. If you don't like it, then don't buy it!
feek61
Sr Member
Oh come on! I was only expressing my disappointment with the missed opportunity to create a model that was like the original; not someones idealized version. No need to start a grid debate (again). It has always been hard to understand why the grid was on the original AMT model (but then again with the exception of the D7; none of those models were accurate) and even harder to understand with the new tooling why a feature not on the original is so important to include. A slight pencil line on a model 4 times the size of this one would not even be visible at this scale; much less be carved into the hull. Of course they can be fixed by most anyone but that's not the point. The disappointment is the inaccuracy.
Commander Max
Sr Member
Yea feek, you see all of these Trekkies scream about uber accuracy. Only now it's OK to be inaccurate.
JMChladek
Sr Member
Excellent idea for the reference targets Max. The subtle curve on the saucer is going to throw in a little monkey wrench, but nothing that can't be overcome. Taping on a temporary reference guide might be a good idea. I'm kind of thinking back to the optical illusions Steve was seeing with his half scale saucer (it was so big that the eye couldn't quite process all the straight lines with the curves). At the very least, I am filing that idea away for future use. 
Concerning the question of "accuracy" to the "studio model" technically any TOS Enterprise model kit is going to be an idealization in some fashion (and I think this was addressed in either the first or second 1701 club update). The 11 footer was unfinished on one side and had some asymetrical details. The ole three footer was a complete model, but rather different proportionally in several areas (sort of like the differences between the 5 foot Millennium Falcon from ANH and the 32" model built for ESB). The rest is down to lighting, special effects, some trick photography (reversing of shots), and other things to make a hand built 11 foot model look like a starship. But, while it is the Enterprise on TV, the model is no more the Enterprise than William Shatner is Captain Kirk. Is he Captain Kirk? Yes. Does he have the combination of the safe in his quarters committed to memory, I doubt it. So is it the Enterprise? No, but it plays one on TV (not trying to be snarky here, just interjecting a little humor into the mix).
So, it is a judgement call as to what to do on the model (do you mirror image the left side for the right, or do you keep some of the asymetries on the windows?). Do you go all smooth, or do you go with some raised relief in spots? How do you replicate the raised pattern on the impulse engine deck when originally it seemed to be a cloth overlay? Do you go with an open shuttle bay? If so, how do you do it when the real miniature set has a bit of a TARDIS effect in there? It is always going to be a judgement call. Cost is another factor. Ideally, we want a company to make something "right" if they can. But there is always going to come a time when the decision has to be made that enough has been done since the company doing the model doesn't have unlimited funds and customers who might buy it don't have unlimited pocketbooks. Plus, there are also customers who will say "I want it now, warts and all". So, which group do you appeal to? A company has to try and find a happy medium for all three factors. Otherwise, the model kit could become a financial disaster, no matter HOW good it is.
When we build the model, it will also be a judgement call on what things we want to do. Do we light or not? Do we go clean or weathered? What brands of paint do we use? Do we use decals or try to paint stuff on? So, every model of the Enterprise done from this kit is going to be ever so slightly different depending on the skill of the modeler and the choices made. That doesn't mean the models will be inaccurate necessarily because each person will have their own choice to decide how to make the model.
In my case, I want to model to get me the 95 odd percent of the way there and I can use my own model skill or judgement to overcome what is left. Besides, are we modelers or just mere kit assemblers? On the RPF, I would say most of us are "modelers". But just remember there has to be a certain amount of work done for the "kit assemblers" who might not have as much skill or time. The grid is a perfectly good compromise to me. Besides, it is A LOT easier to fill a grid and make a model look smooth than it is to scribe one in my experience. So I think the "To grid or not... to grid. THAT is the question" back and fourth is overblown.
I know, we all have different opinions. That is what makes us human. But in determining whether or not I am going to plunk down three bills on a 1/350 TOS E, an etched grid is FAR down low on the list of things that would make me consider not buying it. When the only alternatives are expensive pre-painted replicas (some being better than others) or resin kits (some better than others), styrene is more appealing at least to me. After sanding off enough raised saucer grids on 18" AMT Es and scribing in lower rings on those saucers, filling grid lines on a 1/350 model (if I should choose to) is a thing that doesn't require that much effort. But of course, I am a unique individual and my skillset is going to be different from others.
Concerning the question of "accuracy" to the "studio model" technically any TOS Enterprise model kit is going to be an idealization in some fashion (and I think this was addressed in either the first or second 1701 club update). The 11 footer was unfinished on one side and had some asymetrical details. The ole three footer was a complete model, but rather different proportionally in several areas (sort of like the differences between the 5 foot Millennium Falcon from ANH and the 32" model built for ESB). The rest is down to lighting, special effects, some trick photography (reversing of shots), and other things to make a hand built 11 foot model look like a starship. But, while it is the Enterprise on TV, the model is no more the Enterprise than William Shatner is Captain Kirk. Is he Captain Kirk? Yes. Does he have the combination of the safe in his quarters committed to memory, I doubt it. So is it the Enterprise? No, but it plays one on TV (not trying to be snarky here, just interjecting a little humor into the mix).
So, it is a judgement call as to what to do on the model (do you mirror image the left side for the right, or do you keep some of the asymetries on the windows?). Do you go all smooth, or do you go with some raised relief in spots? How do you replicate the raised pattern on the impulse engine deck when originally it seemed to be a cloth overlay? Do you go with an open shuttle bay? If so, how do you do it when the real miniature set has a bit of a TARDIS effect in there? It is always going to be a judgement call. Cost is another factor. Ideally, we want a company to make something "right" if they can. But there is always going to come a time when the decision has to be made that enough has been done since the company doing the model doesn't have unlimited funds and customers who might buy it don't have unlimited pocketbooks. Plus, there are also customers who will say "I want it now, warts and all". So, which group do you appeal to? A company has to try and find a happy medium for all three factors. Otherwise, the model kit could become a financial disaster, no matter HOW good it is.
When we build the model, it will also be a judgement call on what things we want to do. Do we light or not? Do we go clean or weathered? What brands of paint do we use? Do we use decals or try to paint stuff on? So, every model of the Enterprise done from this kit is going to be ever so slightly different depending on the skill of the modeler and the choices made. That doesn't mean the models will be inaccurate necessarily because each person will have their own choice to decide how to make the model.
In my case, I want to model to get me the 95 odd percent of the way there and I can use my own model skill or judgement to overcome what is left. Besides, are we modelers or just mere kit assemblers? On the RPF, I would say most of us are "modelers". But just remember there has to be a certain amount of work done for the "kit assemblers" who might not have as much skill or time. The grid is a perfectly good compromise to me. Besides, it is A LOT easier to fill a grid and make a model look smooth than it is to scribe one in my experience. So I think the "To grid or not... to grid. THAT is the question" back and fourth is overblown.
I know, we all have different opinions. That is what makes us human. But in determining whether or not I am going to plunk down three bills on a 1/350 TOS E, an etched grid is FAR down low on the list of things that would make me consider not buying it. When the only alternatives are expensive pre-painted replicas (some being better than others) or resin kits (some better than others), styrene is more appealing at least to me. After sanding off enough raised saucer grids on 18" AMT Es and scribing in lower rings on those saucers, filling grid lines on a 1/350 model (if I should choose to) is a thing that doesn't require that much effort. But of course, I am a unique individual and my skillset is going to be different from others.
Commander Max
Sr Member
Thanks JMC,
Believe me, one thing nobody wants is a 100% accurate reproduction of the studio model.
In realty the studio model looks like hell, even back when it was built. The saucer wasn't round the bands on the lower saucer looked like they were done by hand. I could go on, but it was built for cheap and only needed to look good on camera.
The model as presented by PL looks to be about 75-80% accurate. Not counting the asymmetric issues. If you leave the grid on the model you will never get past 85% accuracy. The grid as presented ruins the look of the model, mainly because the grid lines look to be the same as the refit. Plus one little aside the grid lines never touched the bridge. They didn't on the studio model, I'm sorry I can't show the proof. Just take my word for it.
Going around a contoured surface is really easy, you need a very flexable scale. Or a strip of styrene about an inch wide(not very thick). Tape it down on the opisite side and do what you need to do after that.
My concern on filling in the gridlines is getting a good surface. There is a chance you'll get a wobbly surface(high and lows) just because of unlike materials.
There is one thing I was surprised to see. A gear motor in the bussard. Who knows how quiet it will be, hopefully it will be much better than the MR.
Believe me, one thing nobody wants is a 100% accurate reproduction of the studio model.
In realty the studio model looks like hell, even back when it was built. The saucer wasn't round the bands on the lower saucer looked like they were done by hand. I could go on, but it was built for cheap and only needed to look good on camera.
The model as presented by PL looks to be about 75-80% accurate. Not counting the asymmetric issues. If you leave the grid on the model you will never get past 85% accuracy. The grid as presented ruins the look of the model, mainly because the grid lines look to be the same as the refit. Plus one little aside the grid lines never touched the bridge. They didn't on the studio model, I'm sorry I can't show the proof. Just take my word for it.
Going around a contoured surface is really easy, you need a very flexable scale. Or a strip of styrene about an inch wide(not very thick). Tape it down on the opisite side and do what you need to do after that.
My concern on filling in the gridlines is getting a good surface. There is a chance you'll get a wobbly surface(high and lows) just because of unlike materials.
There is one thing I was surprised to see. A gear motor in the bussard. Who knows how quiet it will be, hopefully it will be much better than the MR.
Word is the grids will go if they can't get them fine enough.
Some wonderfest coverage over at Hobbytalk....
Wonderfest 2012 Predictions Thread - Page 3 - HobbyTalk
Some wonderfest coverage over at Hobbytalk....
Wonderfest 2012 Predictions Thread - Page 3 - HobbyTalk
SteveNeill
Sr Member
Just horrible. Those lines! Talk about inaccurate!
Steve
Steve
MustangGTR1
Sr Member
The lines need to go
robn1
Master Member
the stuff ont he 1/350th is at the beginning of this (when I opened it in my browser it started in the middle).
Then some stuff about the lighting effects around minute 37
Very End... and really 1/32 shuttle over the 1/1000 reliant - sometihng was fixed there... :thumbsdown But I'll probably get one :facepalm
Jedi Dade
Then some stuff about the lighting effects around minute 37
Very End... and really 1/32 shuttle over the 1/1000 reliant - sometihng was fixed there... :thumbsdown But I'll probably get one :facepalm
Jedi Dade
JMChladek
Sr Member
I'm in exactly the same boat. Hopefully the light kits won't follow too far behind the model itself as I could care less about letting my 1701 Club edition Enterprise sit on a shelf in a box collecting dust. I want to BUILD that sucker as soon as I possibly can.
