Variety Article: Crisis at Marvel
- Thread starter Captain Dunsel
- Start date
Prop Collector
Sr Member
They went from this...
to this...
Is it really a wonder they're having a crisis?
to this...
Is it really a wonder they're having a crisis?
Solo4114
Master Member
I don't think it's an issue of "pandering" or anything of the sort.
I think it's simply market saturation. Superhero content just isn't that special anymore. It's not an "event". It's not "must see." It's tired, old hat, been-there-done-that material for a lot of audiences.
I've honestly thoroughly enjoyed each of the new TV shows. I liked that Marvel was getting weird with She-Hulk and Werewolf by Night and such. I enjoyed Falcon & Winter Soldier and Loki both, and I really liked Moon Knight, too. But I think that they needed maybe more connective tissue with the old guard of heroes in the new films.
Like, they got rid of Cap, Black Widow, Iron Man, and (mostly) Hulk all in one fell swoop, and Thor's 3rd film was...not quite what people hoped for. And otherwise he's been missing in action.
In addition, while hardcore fans love the interconnectedness, I think a lot of audiences do not like how much "homework" they have to do to follow what the hell is going on. This has always been a criticism of comic books by people who aren't already fans of comic books. Even as a comics fan, it's an issue for me. I enjoyed having big, sprawling storylines that involved multiple characters/teams/titles, but I always hated having to collect 10 different issues per month just to know what the **** was going on. It's a big part of why I stopped buying single issues, and started waiting years to buy TPBs that collect them all for me. I'd bet audiences are doing the same with the Marvel films.
But again, more than that, more than anything else, I think the real issue is that Marvel films...just don't feel that special anymore. You can play at the edges of things by making them less interdependent, making them come out with less frequency, but the bottom line is that when Marvel really hit it big, it was the "new hotness." And now it's just...not. The market is saturated, the audiences are satiated, and they're not CRAVING new stuff the way they did.
Moreover, the actual production approach has, it sounds, become incredibly inefficient and counterproductive. We've had this discussion before, though, right after Dial of Destiny came out and underperformed. (Which everyone now seems to have forgotten about...) Basically, all the studios developed an approach of (1) spending multiple hundreds of millions of dollars in making these films, and (2) actually failing to construct and plan them ahead of time. So much is fixed in post that it sounds like (From the article) it became just "The Way It's Done Here." And that worked great when this stuff was new and interesting and building to a grand finale. But when that ended? The air went out of the balloon, and now you just can't continue to do things "The Way It's Done". You have to do it differently.
Some of that may be smaller budgets, but I'd bet a lot of it is having a longer preproduction window to get clearer on your script, to ensure your VFX team has time to produce good quality work, etc. Back in the day, Star Wars movies came out every 3 years. When the ST was released, they cut a year in production for each of the 3 trilogy films, separating them by only 2 years. For movies this big...well, I think it explains why we get films like TROS which feel very slapped together with duct tape, spit, and chewing gum (if that much, even).
Audiences aren't rejecting this stuff because it's pandering. They're rejecting it because they just don't care that much anymore. They've seen it. And given the pace at which this stuff comes out, if the last one seems kinda meh, whatever, there's another one coming soon anyway. When your films become like busses, you can't expect to do $1B in box office globally.
I think it's simply market saturation. Superhero content just isn't that special anymore. It's not an "event". It's not "must see." It's tired, old hat, been-there-done-that material for a lot of audiences.
I've honestly thoroughly enjoyed each of the new TV shows. I liked that Marvel was getting weird with She-Hulk and Werewolf by Night and such. I enjoyed Falcon & Winter Soldier and Loki both, and I really liked Moon Knight, too. But I think that they needed maybe more connective tissue with the old guard of heroes in the new films.
Like, they got rid of Cap, Black Widow, Iron Man, and (mostly) Hulk all in one fell swoop, and Thor's 3rd film was...not quite what people hoped for. And otherwise he's been missing in action.
In addition, while hardcore fans love the interconnectedness, I think a lot of audiences do not like how much "homework" they have to do to follow what the hell is going on. This has always been a criticism of comic books by people who aren't already fans of comic books. Even as a comics fan, it's an issue for me. I enjoyed having big, sprawling storylines that involved multiple characters/teams/titles, but I always hated having to collect 10 different issues per month just to know what the **** was going on. It's a big part of why I stopped buying single issues, and started waiting years to buy TPBs that collect them all for me. I'd bet audiences are doing the same with the Marvel films.
But again, more than that, more than anything else, I think the real issue is that Marvel films...just don't feel that special anymore. You can play at the edges of things by making them less interdependent, making them come out with less frequency, but the bottom line is that when Marvel really hit it big, it was the "new hotness." And now it's just...not. The market is saturated, the audiences are satiated, and they're not CRAVING new stuff the way they did.
Moreover, the actual production approach has, it sounds, become incredibly inefficient and counterproductive. We've had this discussion before, though, right after Dial of Destiny came out and underperformed. (Which everyone now seems to have forgotten about...) Basically, all the studios developed an approach of (1) spending multiple hundreds of millions of dollars in making these films, and (2) actually failing to construct and plan them ahead of time. So much is fixed in post that it sounds like (From the article) it became just "The Way It's Done Here." And that worked great when this stuff was new and interesting and building to a grand finale. But when that ended? The air went out of the balloon, and now you just can't continue to do things "The Way It's Done". You have to do it differently.
Some of that may be smaller budgets, but I'd bet a lot of it is having a longer preproduction window to get clearer on your script, to ensure your VFX team has time to produce good quality work, etc. Back in the day, Star Wars movies came out every 3 years. When the ST was released, they cut a year in production for each of the 3 trilogy films, separating them by only 2 years. For movies this big...well, I think it explains why we get films like TROS which feel very slapped together with duct tape, spit, and chewing gum (if that much, even).
Audiences aren't rejecting this stuff because it's pandering. They're rejecting it because they just don't care that much anymore. They've seen it. And given the pace at which this stuff comes out, if the last one seems kinda meh, whatever, there's another one coming soon anyway. When your films become like busses, you can't expect to do $1B in box office globally.
Jm419
Sr Member
The cracks were already showing pre-Endgame, when they decided to shove Brie Larson into the timeline in place of ScarJo's standalone film. Captain Marvel had no place in the franchise, and this is made evident by her total absence from Endgame until she shows up for the widely made-fun-of girlboss segment.
Superman isn't interesting because he's flawless, Superman is interesting when his own rules of engagement put him in a crisis where he has to decide between two evils. He's not interesting because he's bulletproof, he's interesting because he cares that other people aren't. He's not a smarmy, quipping, wooden jerk, he's all heart. That's why the character works.
Larson's Captain Marvel has no heart. She's powerful enough to break the power scale, rendering the accomplishments of our other characters moot by comparison. Cap can't fly through a spaceship, Black Widow can't tank a punch in the face from Thanos... but this brand new shiny character totally can. And that isn't good storytelling. It doesn't feel earned.
Combine the general lack of talent in the writer's room over at Disney - and no, political lectures are not a stand in for good storytelling - with this bizarre hostility toward their core audience, especially when that core audience reacts negatively to the new direction of the franchise, and you have a recipe for failure.
This isn't just true of Marvel, either. Both Star Wars and Indiana Jones have had their charismatic male leads killed off and/or written off as failures with a legacy of failure, only to be replaced by unlikable female copies with British accents. Sound familiar to anyone?
There's rot at Disney. That's not to say they can't produce good shows, but when they accidentally make something good, like Andor, it's very apparent that it managed to slip through the cracks without upper management smearing their greasy hands all over the script. Hell, even South Park just roasted Disney for only making pandering crap now.
And look - we need female and minority heroes in stories. We can't go forward with five white men and a gorgeous redhead in a leather bodysuit forever. But those leading ladies and leading men of color deserve to have better stories than they're getting. We know Brie Larson's a woman. We can see that. So write her to be a likable character, not this arrogant wooden stand-in for some Hollywood denizen. Give Ms. Marvel or Sam Jackson a decent story to tell instead of hoping to distract us with bright colors or memberberries. Make us care about these characters. That's how you do right by minority actors and by actresses in general. Don't tell us we have to like them; write them to be likable.
Both they as the actors and we as the audience deserve some better godd***n movies.
Superman isn't interesting because he's flawless, Superman is interesting when his own rules of engagement put him in a crisis where he has to decide between two evils. He's not interesting because he's bulletproof, he's interesting because he cares that other people aren't. He's not a smarmy, quipping, wooden jerk, he's all heart. That's why the character works.
Larson's Captain Marvel has no heart. She's powerful enough to break the power scale, rendering the accomplishments of our other characters moot by comparison. Cap can't fly through a spaceship, Black Widow can't tank a punch in the face from Thanos... but this brand new shiny character totally can. And that isn't good storytelling. It doesn't feel earned.
Combine the general lack of talent in the writer's room over at Disney - and no, political lectures are not a stand in for good storytelling - with this bizarre hostility toward their core audience, especially when that core audience reacts negatively to the new direction of the franchise, and you have a recipe for failure.
This isn't just true of Marvel, either. Both Star Wars and Indiana Jones have had their charismatic male leads killed off and/or written off as failures with a legacy of failure, only to be replaced by unlikable female copies with British accents. Sound familiar to anyone?
There's rot at Disney. That's not to say they can't produce good shows, but when they accidentally make something good, like Andor, it's very apparent that it managed to slip through the cracks without upper management smearing their greasy hands all over the script. Hell, even South Park just roasted Disney for only making pandering crap now.
And look - we need female and minority heroes in stories. We can't go forward with five white men and a gorgeous redhead in a leather bodysuit forever. But those leading ladies and leading men of color deserve to have better stories than they're getting. We know Brie Larson's a woman. We can see that. So write her to be a likable character, not this arrogant wooden stand-in for some Hollywood denizen. Give Ms. Marvel or Sam Jackson a decent story to tell instead of hoping to distract us with bright colors or memberberries. Make us care about these characters. That's how you do right by minority actors and by actresses in general. Don't tell us we have to like them; write them to be likable.
Both they as the actors and we as the audience deserve some better godd***n movies.
Jm419
Sr Member
Frankly, I think the focus on the superficial physical traits of the Phase 4 + characters is a big part of the issue. Isn't Larson more than just a woman? Can't Anthony Mackie be more than just his skin color? It's infantilizing.
Treat these characters like adults. It shouldn't matter that Captain America is black now. That's not to say that Cap can't be black, or that Captain Marvel can't be a woman; quite the opposite. They deserve to be in stories that are about more than their right to exist as human beings, as characters in a decades-old franchise. Give them the same caliber of storytelling, the same depth of arc that Downey Jr. or Evans enjoyed; demonstrate that actors of color are every bit the equal of their white counterparts, that leading ladies can carry the franchise just as well as the leading men have in the past. Make it about the stories, not the actors; the actors deserve to be more than the token minority.
Do that, and people will come back.
Treat these characters like adults. It shouldn't matter that Captain America is black now. That's not to say that Cap can't be black, or that Captain Marvel can't be a woman; quite the opposite. They deserve to be in stories that are about more than their right to exist as human beings, as characters in a decades-old franchise. Give them the same caliber of storytelling, the same depth of arc that Downey Jr. or Evans enjoyed; demonstrate that actors of color are every bit the equal of their white counterparts, that leading ladies can carry the franchise just as well as the leading men have in the past. Make it about the stories, not the actors; the actors deserve to be more than the token minority.
Do that, and people will come back.
I'm not so sure that Disney was consciously "pushing an agenda" as much as they were simply completely out of touch with their own market. I think the current state of Disney can be attributed simply to their gross misreading of the general public. Regardless of the internal sociopolitical culture at Disney, clearly they had believed their unpopular characters and stories reflected the interests of popular culture today. And they were wrong. I suppose one can argue it is that same internal culture gave rise to their miscalculation, but that's a different discussion.
The major franchises being led by characters from traditionally "underrepresented" groups isn't exactly the problem. The problem is that Disney behaves as if diversity and representation alone were the formula for keeping them afloat. They forgot the basic qualities that made their characters interesting even to folks who had no interest in superheroes and comics to begin. Disney should understand that the only "formula" is having characters that are multidimensional, relatable through their fallibility, who demonstrate heroic qualities of humility, public service and sacrifice, and who go through journeys of character growth.
I complain about their promotion of "girl-boss" types not because I'm against representation, but because it seems they don't develop these characters much beyond the archetype.
Disney can still represent whatever diverse groups they want so long as the characters are well-written. If they don't get that, I fear Disney will take the wrong message and bank on bringing back some old characters (at great expense) in the service of hyping up the new ones. And that will fail, too.
And you can't simply "pass the mantle" to a new character with comparable powers because a good superhero film ain't about the superpowers. The superpowers are only a platform for character development. That is all. Take Captain America. His "superpowers" are basically just physical fitness, yet he's one of the most beloved of the MCU characters and stands toe-to-toe in terms of popularity with Stark and all his cool tech. Cap had fans of every age, gender and race because his humanity appeals to principles that are universal.
Even the current pantheon of unpopular characters may be serviceable with some thoughtful character writing. Even so it might take time to win back some of the fanbase they've driven away, but I think it's still the only hope for the future of the MCU and Lucasfilm characters.
The major franchises being led by characters from traditionally "underrepresented" groups isn't exactly the problem. The problem is that Disney behaves as if diversity and representation alone were the formula for keeping them afloat. They forgot the basic qualities that made their characters interesting even to folks who had no interest in superheroes and comics to begin. Disney should understand that the only "formula" is having characters that are multidimensional, relatable through their fallibility, who demonstrate heroic qualities of humility, public service and sacrifice, and who go through journeys of character growth.
I complain about their promotion of "girl-boss" types not because I'm against representation, but because it seems they don't develop these characters much beyond the archetype.
Disney can still represent whatever diverse groups they want so long as the characters are well-written. If they don't get that, I fear Disney will take the wrong message and bank on bringing back some old characters (at great expense) in the service of hyping up the new ones. And that will fail, too.
And you can't simply "pass the mantle" to a new character with comparable powers because a good superhero film ain't about the superpowers. The superpowers are only a platform for character development. That is all. Take Captain America. His "superpowers" are basically just physical fitness, yet he's one of the most beloved of the MCU characters and stands toe-to-toe in terms of popularity with Stark and all his cool tech. Cap had fans of every age, gender and race because his humanity appeals to principles that are universal.
Even the current pantheon of unpopular characters may be serviceable with some thoughtful character writing. Even so it might take time to win back some of the fanbase they've driven away, but I think it's still the only hope for the future of the MCU and Lucasfilm characters.
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On-point, here:
Cephus
Master Member
This has been going on forever though. Marvel Comics destroyed their own readership by pushing gimmicks and bad stories and when they got desperate, they turned to a vocal group that was only too happy to tell them what they were doing "wrong", but those people weren't customers, they were just complainers. So Marvel (and other companies) bought into it hook, line and sinker, they retooled all of their comics to pander to this new "audience" only to find that said "audience" wasn't going to support them financially, no matter what they did. Except now, they had already filled their ranks with woke idiots who couldn't write, and since they could no longer afford to pay anyone with quality or talent, they had to go for the low-hanging fruit that would work for peanuts. You know, the people who couldn't get an actual job anywhere else.
That's been Disney for years now. They also bought into the lie and have been pandering to an audience that won't give them any money. Kevin Feige wanted Phase 4 and beyond to be all about diversity and inclusion instead of telling actual stories that their paying customers wanted to see. Therefore, their customers went elsewhere, but since Disney is now packed to the gills with woke idiots who know nothing else, nothing is going to change unless they have a massive house cleaning.
That's where Ike Perlmutter and Nelson Peltz might make a difference because they're looking to get rid of the morons at Disney who have caused all of the problems in the first place. The next couple of weeks will tell.
That's been Disney for years now. They also bought into the lie and have been pandering to an audience that won't give them any money. Kevin Feige wanted Phase 4 and beyond to be all about diversity and inclusion instead of telling actual stories that their paying customers wanted to see. Therefore, their customers went elsewhere, but since Disney is now packed to the gills with woke idiots who know nothing else, nothing is going to change unless they have a massive house cleaning.
That's where Ike Perlmutter and Nelson Peltz might make a difference because they're looking to get rid of the morons at Disney who have caused all of the problems in the first place. The next couple of weeks will tell.
Agreed. Nothing will improve at Disney until they do a massive firing and put new people control of creative decisions.
The current batch has demonstrated that they aren't capable of changing gears and learning from their mistakes. They have one gear, and it's the one that got them into this mess. They are gonna keep repeating the same foul-ups until Disney either fires them or declares bankruptcy.
The current batch has demonstrated that they aren't capable of changing gears and learning from their mistakes. They have one gear, and it's the one that got them into this mess. They are gonna keep repeating the same foul-ups until Disney either fires them or declares bankruptcy.
Lightning
Master Member
They nailed this with the sibling banter between Shuri and T'Challa.
The First Avenger is my favorite MCU film, and I'll be the first to say the movie gets worse after Cap gets his power up.
And if rumors are true, they are are attempting to pull a Rise of Skywalker and return to this vs. making anything new that pleases and grabs audiences…
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: Desperation; a new smell from Marvel Studios:
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Now they're saying that they have completely screwed up Blade and Mahershala Ali has threatened to walk because it's another bait and switch. The premise was supposedly going to focus on Blade's daughter (so innovative!!!) and two other female characters and Blade would be a quarternary character. Did they not learn from Blade Trinity (which I don't think was that bad, not great) when they sidelined Blade for Whistler's daughter and her crew?
Spiderman, Deadpool, Wolverine are the only characters that have real potential to make money. Out of those three, two of them have to be R rated to pull in the money. Since both R rated Deadpools and Logan did well, Disney doesn't have an excuse not to do it.
If DC is making R rated fun comic movies and Marvel stays PG13, I think DC will start to dominate. We shall see what James G does.
If DC is making R rated fun comic movies and Marvel stays PG13, I think DC will start to dominate. We shall see what James G does.
When your only tool is a hammer, and your only skill is hammering . . . . everything looks like a nail.
I'm picturing some 22yo actor in the press interviews: "We wanted to do a Blade movie with a strong female character for the first time."
This stuff is so tired & predictable that it's not even interesting to make fun of it anymore.
