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  1. JayPHX's Avatar
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    Oct 19, 2010, 12:33 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #76



    So the the helmet currently in the warehouse is one of the stunt helemts?
    (pic from ER earlier in the thread)
  2. Member Since
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    Oct 19, 2010, 1:28 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #77

    Hi Dualdge, It seems like you know a lot about the helmets. However, some information you disclosed is correct and some are incorrect. I cannot disclose some information due to several reasons. Heavy repercussions may take place due to the discloser of certain details. I worked on the film and dealt a lot with several props and crew. I have gotten to know various groups of people throughout the production. I made a lot of friends. Brad Einhorn is a nice gentleman. The Hero helmets were almost identical in detail. The Hero helmets contained certain details that I cannot disclose due to the nature of the item. These details are often the only way to tell if the item is legitimate or not. The Hero Helmets and certain stunt helmets came from the same mold. The ripaway or breakaway helmet was made by a different group than the Hero Helmets and they are an entirely different stunt helmet. The definition of a stunt and hero helmet may play an important part since the helmet and variations are complex. In certain scenes a stunt helmet was used instead of a Hero Helmet to keep the Heros from getting damage or cracking. For example, a stunt helmet may have been used in the Griffith Observatory scene where the Billy Campbell flies off the grass with a nazi on his back. The helmet being tossed on the ground was a stunt helmet. Several stunt helmets were almost identical to the Heros. James Latta has one of these helmets. Non production copies were made. I am certain there were no finished non production copies especially with the same materials as the Heros. One person painted all of the Hero Helmets. He was the only person that could have properly finished a helmet.
    Hi Evilrcoketeer, You are a very lucky gent. Those are legitamate production helmets. I believe your helmet was the only finished production helmet that came from the shop that was finished with the same materials as the Hero. Your helmet is very unique. It must of been a possible stunt or Hero but opted by the crew member to be a personal item. We still have to meet up again. My sincerest apologies. I do not normally go on particular sites such as this. I guess only when I am at school with free time.
    Last edited by MrBusiness; Oct 19, 2010 at 1:35 PM.
  3. dualedge's Avatar
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    Oct 19, 2010, 5:14 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #78

    MrBusiness said: View Post
    Hi Dualdge, It seems like you know a lot about the helmets. However, some information you disclosed is correct and some are incorrect. I cannot disclose some information due to several reasons. Heavy repercussions may take place due to the discloser of certain details. I worked on the film and dealt a lot with several props and crew. I have gotten to know various groups of people throughout the production. I made a lot of friends. Brad Einhorn is a nice gentleman. The Hero helmets were almost identical in detail. The Hero helmets contained certain details that I cannot disclose due to the nature of the item. These details are often the only way to tell if the item is legitimate or not. The Hero Helmets and certain stunt helmets came from the same mold. The ripaway or breakaway helmet was made by a different group than the Hero Helmets and they are an entirely different stunt helmet. The definition of a stunt and hero helmet may play an important part since the helmet and variations are complex. In certain scenes a stunt helmet was used instead of a Hero Helmet to keep the Heros from getting damage or cracking. For example, a stunt helmet may have been used in the Griffith Observatory scene where the Billy Campbell flies off the grass with a nazi on his back. The helmet being tossed on the ground was a stunt helmet. Several stunt helmets were almost identical to the Heros. James Latta has one of these helmets. Non production copies were made. I am certain there were no finished non production copies especially with the same materials as the Heros. One person painted all of the Hero Helmets. He was the only person that could have properly finished a helmet.
    Thanks for the info! I always try to be clear when there's something I don't know for certain and what you said does corroborate what I've been told by other first person sources. I'm not sure what I got wrong but I'd love to chat via email or whatever you might have a little time for if you're willing.

    Actually, Brad Einhorn authenticated the hero helmet I used to own. I flew with the helmet out to L.A. to meet him (and have photographic proof ) so I've discussed it with him in quite a bit of detail. He explained most of the internal details to me and I don't share those due to issues of protecting screen-used originals. It was the helmet used in the duck-pond sequence and it was also on the cover of Cinefex.

    I love discussing the helmets but you might notice I don't go into any details about many less obvious details of the hero helmet... As you said, those details are about the only way to spot an original sometimes. Heck, it's how I got the hero helmet to begin with much thanks to a quote from Bill Campbell!

    I'm honestly not even sure I could recognize one of the stunt helmets you refer to because I've never seen a completely authenticated stunt such as that. My experience has been that most guys that claim they have a so-called "stunt" helmet (and there are SO many of them) usually just have another replica or something clearly not original. There have been a few helmets I've seen that left me scratching my head so it's possible any one of them might have been what you're referring to.

    But much of the information I have regarding the hero helmets came personally from Brad and a guy that worked at the prop shop. I believe Brad was only familiar with the stunt helmets that you described and perhaps that would explain why he didn't seem to know anything about the vac-formed helmets.

    The guy I talked to at the prop shop didn't go into much detail about the non-production copies but what you said about them not being finished completely agrees with what I've heard previously. I'll refrain from going into detail though...

    I would actually like to ask you a few questions about the prototype if you have any time to chat via PM, email or whatever. I'd promise not to be a nag and I can tell you who it was I talked to at the shop if you like. You must know the guy... well, assuming you're not him I suppose...

    Rob
  4. JayPHX's Avatar
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    Oct 19, 2010, 6:41 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #79

    Thanks for everyones contributions and willingnes to share your knowledge with those of us who will never touch a real helmet (unless we go to Florida and reach over the lemonade stand). It does make you wonder just how many helemts are out there...
    Last edited by JayPHX; Oct 19, 2010 at 6:42 PM. Reason: Edit
  5. RPF Premium Member tubachris85x's Avatar
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    Oct 19, 2010, 8:20 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #80

    JayPHX said: View Post
    Thanks for everyones contributions and willingnes to share your knowledge with those of us who will never touch a real helmet (unless we go to Florida and reach over the lemonade stand). It does make you wonder just how many helemts are out there...
    Yea, be careful with that..I almost knocked over a C3P0 screen used stand in while attempting some *cough*Shinanigans*cough* at downtown disney..but that's a different story
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    Oct 21, 2010, 1:14 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #81

    Hi Dualedge, I am certain I have never spoken with you before. I may know the crew member you are refering too but I met a lot of people on set. How do you know your helmet is from the duck pond sequence and on the cinefex? did you purchase the helmet from disney that disclose the information? It would be difficult to pin point exactly where the helmet was used in different scenes especially since the dvd is poor in quality. Maybe when the film is released on blue ray then it might be eaiser to pin point the helmet. Also I believe the duck pond helmet was sold as an entire costume a few years back. The helmet did not match the costume. For example, the helmet was from the duck pond scene while the jacket and pants were used in different scenes. People mistaking replica rocketeer helmets for stunt or production happens frequently. The majority of the time the helmet is a replica. If you have owned or seen a production helmet in person you can easly tell the difference with replicas. Finding a production helmet or Hero helmet is extremely difficult and without proper evidence proving the helmet is legitimate than most likely it is a replica. Buyer Beware.
  7. RPF Premium Member tubachris85x's Avatar
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    Oct 21, 2010, 2:48 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #82

    I'm assuming the production made helmets have distinctive physical features outside the actual sculpt to accuratly identify real from replica?
  8. dualedge's Avatar
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    Oct 22, 2010, 9:25 AM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #83

    MrBusiness said: View Post
    Hi Dualedge, I am certain I have never spoken with you before. I may know the crew member you are refering too but I met a lot of people on set. How do you know your helmet is from the duck pond sequence and on the cinefex? did you purchase the helmet from disney that disclose the information? It would be difficult to pin point exactly where the helmet was used in different scenes especially since the dvd is poor in quality. Maybe when the film is released on blue ray then it might be eaiser to pin point the helmet. Also I believe the duck pond helmet was sold as an entire costume a few years back. The helmet did not match the costume. For example, the helmet was from the duck pond scene while the jacket and pants were used in different scenes. People mistaking replica rocketeer helmets for stunt or production happens frequently. The majority of the time the helmet is a replica. If you have owned or seen a production helmet in person you can easly tell the difference with replicas. Finding a production helmet or Hero helmet is extremely difficult and without proper evidence proving the helmet is legitimate than most likely it is a replica. Buyer Beware.
    Thanks for responding!

    Actually the helmet I had was the one sold in Profiles in History that I think you're referring to... I think it was in 2008 maybe? The helmet was displayed at the Profiles in History prop display booth at the San Diego Comic Con that year. It killed me to sell it... My avatar image is the face of that helmet by the way...

    Believe me, I was *by far* the biggest skeptic. I wasn't 100% satisfied until after I had flown it out and met with Brad in person to have him authenticate it. He even gave me a letter of authenticity which he was *only* willing to do if he could examine it *in person*. I actually bought the helmet from Sotheby's around 2003 and it came with no provenance so everything I know is by my own years of hard work, research, studying photos and talking to guys like the propmaster and the guy at the prop shop to piece the provenance back together.

    The photo displayed with it was of Bill Campbell holding the helmet between or after filming the duck pond scenes. In the photo Bill Campbell is in the full costume but completely wet from being in the duck pond. The way I know it is/was the same helmet are two particular details the most notable of which was a big white scar on the front edge of the fin. When I got the helmet, that scar had been painted over but it was still clearly visible that the paint had been scraped off in that exact shape and location exposing the resin. That combined with one other "tell" and the fact that Brad personally authenticated it plus some additional information he told me about confirmed to my satisfaction it was used in at least that scene.

    The weathering on the helmet also perfectly matched the weathering on the helmet seen on the cover of Cinefex which would have been either a blue-screen shot or maybe a shot using rear-projection (not entirely sure which but I'd assume it was blue-screen.) There are a few other promotional and behind the scenes images where it matches up as well. None of the images are technically from live scenes from the movie but all of the corroborating information and visually matched images plus the information first hand from Brad confirm it was in fact screen-used and not just a production copy. Brad also believed it likely would have been used throughout filming and not just in those particular scenes but those are the only scenes I could definitively link it to by visual matches. That's why I refer to it as the "duck-pond helmet" anyway...

    As I mentioned, I had to sell the helmet a couple of years ago however just because most screen-used collecting is simply to rich for my blood. I've got a few tidbits still but not a whole lot. The helmet is and was my so-called "holy grail" but real life needs trump collecting movie props, y'know? It sucks but that's life...

    I'll drop you an email with some other info.
    Last edited by dualedge; Oct 22, 2010 at 10:49 AM.
  9. dualedge's Avatar
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    Oct 22, 2010, 10:05 AM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #84

    tubachris85x said: View Post
    I'm assuming the production made helmets have distinctive physical features outside the actual sculpt to accuratly identify real from replica?
    There are some external visual differences but most of those are things we've already mentioned in previous threads I think... the weld lines, shape of the fin, etc., etc.

    There are also other details that are significant for identifying original helmets but not what I would call significant for the sake of accuracy when it comes to replicas. That may sound vague but that's the best I can offer right now.

    And as MrBusiness pointed out, the paint job is just impossible to replicate 100% anyway. Heck, I've tried. I think I've as close as most others that have tried but I don't think I'll ever be able to get it remotely as good as the originals. At least not in my opinion.
  10. JayPHX's Avatar
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    Oct 22, 2010, 10:59 AM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #85

    When I purchased one of the "Bigleows Air Circus" programs it came with a certificate of authenticity from Disney. Do any of the other props have such certificates?
  11. dualedge's Avatar
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    Oct 22, 2010, 12:46 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #86

    JayPHX said: View Post
    When I purchased one of the "Bigleows Air Circus" programs it came with a certificate of authenticity from Disney. Do any of the other props have such certificates?
    All of the props Disney sold through their official auctions come with paperwork. Few if any of the rest do.

    Screen-used prop collecting seems a lot like replica collecting on the surface but the similarities are truly superficial at best. It's about collecting props but with replicas, provenance is pretty much irrelevant whereas with original prop collecting, provenance is EVERYTHING. If you can't *prove* something is what it is claimed to be, you've got an expensive paperweight.

    More often than not, original props don't come with official paperwork because they left the movie's production by a hundred different ways. Some were stolen, some were given as gifts to various cast or crew, some were either thrown out as junk or would have been thrown out eventually, etc., etc. The burden is on the buyer to know what he's forking money out for... as MrBusiness said... buyer beware.

    If you buy a prop from a place like the Propstore or Screen-Used, they'll give you their own certificate of authenticity but that's it.

    For that matter, you have to learn to be knowledgeable about the props you're buying or want to buy because even official studio documentation can be wrong on occasion. It's not often that it happens but a lot of times people running auctions don't know the props much better than the people that are bidding so sometimes a stunt or secondary prop can be mislabeled as a hero prop or something else.
  12. EvilRocketeer's Avatar
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    Oct 22, 2010, 4:08 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #87

    dualedge said: View Post
    And as MrBusiness pointed out, the paint job is just impossible to replicate 100% anyway. Heck, I've tried. I think I've as close as most others that have tried but I don't think I'll ever be able to get it remotely as good as the originals. At least not in my opinion.
    I totally agree. I look at the paint job on my production helmet and compare it with my other replica helmets. And nothing comes close to it. I have the MR prototype helmet that was painted by a professional prop painter. And it doesnt come close either. The MR is beautifully painted, but it is just different.


    dualedge said: View Post
    All of the props Disney sold through their official auctions come with paperwork. Few if any of the rest do.

    original prop collecting, provenance is EVERYTHING. If you can't *prove* something is what it is claimed to be, you've got an expensive paperweight..
    I totally agree. Provenance is everything. I wouldnt buy a prop if it didnt have it.
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    Oct 22, 2010, 4:20 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #88

    I think even the Disney certificate says something like "created for the production of". My guess is at this point they have no idea what is what.
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    Oct 22, 2010, 4:30 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #89

    Actually, you will be pretty surprised, but some of the disney certificates go into detail about the prop.
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    Oct 22, 2010, 4:56 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #90

    I'm glad to hear that. I was starting to think they never had any idea what they had.
    EvilRocketeer said: View Post
    Actually, you will be pretty surprised, but some of the disney certificates go into detail about the prop.
  16. EvilRocketeer's Avatar
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    Oct 22, 2010, 9:49 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #91

    I think Disney archives sometimes helps them out with descriptions or donates several items to the auctions.

    I think since there was a large amount of aircus programs printed, the certificate wouldn't go much into detail as other items.
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    Oct 22, 2010, 11:04 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #92

    Yeah, I figured since it was in mint condition it hadn't seen much of a life outside of a box.
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    Oct 24, 2010, 7:26 AM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #93

    Eh, Evil, should something happen, I call dibs on your Rocketeer helmet collection

    But yes, authenticity is great an all, but I'm fine knowing for fact that something is or has direct lineage to a production made item. Just cause you don't have a piece of paper saying one thing dosn't always make it un-true, cause as mentioned, alot of production props don't come with one. Hell, the screen used hero helmet didn't have one not until Dualedge sought someone who worked on it!
  19. RPF Premium Member tubachris85x's Avatar
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    Oct 31, 2010, 8:30 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #94

    Good news to those that want recent pics of the MGM/Hollywood Studios rocketeer gear. Just found out that Im gonna be going to Disney over my christmas exodus, so assuming I get myself over to the park, I can snag quite a few pics. I'll try and get as close as possible since my height will help.

    Also, I'll look for the set at the conssesion stand.
  20. Kylash's Avatar
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    Nov 2, 2010, 3:19 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #95

    wow i didnt know they made a prototype pack that looked like the comic one
  21. JayPHX's Avatar
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    Nov 2, 2010, 7:00 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #96

    I think a few people have made replicas of it too. Here's one post

    http://www.therpf.com/f9/cirrus-x-3-...version-80997/
  22. RPF Premium Member tubachris85x's Avatar
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    Dec 18, 2010, 11:57 AM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #97

    FYI, I'm going to be going to Disney World just after Christmas, and I'll be getting pics of the Rocketeer gear at the backlot. LMK if ya'll need specific shots.

    I'll go by that drink stand and see if anything's there, I never saw it before, but I'll look

    -TC
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    Dec 19, 2010, 12:06 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #98

    Awesome!

    If it's not too much trouble, I'd love to see some good shots of the Gee Bee racer that's given to Cliff Secord by Howard Hughes. Perhaps you could also take some shots of the Flight of the Navigator ship as well?, which I believe is now a drink stand painted red. Disney is wild with their decision making...
  24. RPF Premium Member tubachris85x's Avatar
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    Dec 19, 2010, 2:51 PM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #99

    The FoN ship is still on the backlot tour ride, along with the Gee Bee. Those will be ALOT harder to get decent shots since you have to be sitting on one side of the car and that dosn't always work out
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    Dec 20, 2010, 11:27 AM - Re: Rocketeer props from 1991 MGM studios #100

    Fair enough, whatever works best for you. Fun is the main thing!

    Isn't there another Flight of the Navigator ship in disguise as a drink station?

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