PantheraGem
Sr Member
We all know they wanted him out of the way for IX. If he comes back, it's only because Disney didn't get the reaction they were hoping for. By striking him down, he become more powerful, will always be with them, yada yada.
We all know they wanted him out of the way for IX.
I don't disagree with anything above. I'm only saying that I think TFA managed to pull Luke's abscence off properly and TLJ failed to follow it up properly. And I'm in 100% agreement with you regarding the Crait sequence. I didn't want to see Luke flipping around and hacking with the lightsaber prequels-style, but the projection trickery didn't cut it for me either (mostly because it was obvious from the moment he appeared on screen looking like he just came from the hair saloon).Well, it's very possible I'm too steeped in nostalgia at this point to see clearly, but I absolutely wanted a moment like that for Luke. Some might argue we got it during the "force projection" scene in TLJ but that doesn't cut it for me. It comes too late and feels shoe-horned in. And the fact that he's not even actually there on Crait adds another layer of "Yoink! We fooled you!" to the whole thing.
So, I still think that moment in woods would have been a pretty great entry point for Luke to become part of the action — an active member of the story instead of the passive, reluctant non-entity we get in TLJ.
And remember, the hype building up to the release of TFA was not really about the new characters. How could it be, we had no attachment to them at that point. The unprecedented tidal wave of excitement and anticipation was mostly built on a foundation of nostalgia to see our old OT friends back in action. Disney/Lucasfilm very intentionally stoked that premise. I don't think they did a very good job of delivering on it.
Yes, but at the end of the day it's still discussion about a past character. How many discussions were running about the new characters after TFA? Countless, wild, one more annoying than the other fan-theory came after the other about their backgrounds and where they will be heading now. That proportion is now changed.”We? That’s pretty broad and inclusive. As to bringing Luke back as a Force Ghost,it may have been part of Trevorrow’s script or a concept brought in by JJ. Either way I think it is a very attractive story element I think has always been front of mind for Lucasfilm and would be holistically part of the story and not based on any fan reactions to Luke. Certainly TLJ wasn’t developed based on fan reaction to TFA as it was written before that films release. All the Star Wars podcasts I listen too have moved on from discussing Luke in TLJ and speculating on his potential participation in IX, so there are many different conversations happening in fandom.
:cheersLuke should have shut down the new characters. It would have been a final gear at the end of the movie. It would have majorly set the anticipation to max for the next movie. I have less of a problem with Luke not showing up in TFA, and more of a problem with how he's used in TLJ, though. I would have been fine with him being AWOL for TFA if they would have utilized him more effectively in TLJ.
Also, Rey has not earned anything. In fact, none of the new characters have. The only one that came close was Finn... and they even managed to butcher that.
Yes, but at the end of the day it's still discussion about a past character. How many discussions were running about the new characters after TFA? Countless, wild, one more annoying than the other fan-theory came after the other about their backgrounds and where they will be heading now. That proportion is now changed.
Luke should have shut down the new characters. It would have been a final gear at the end of the movie. It would have majorly set the anticipation to max for the next movie. I have less of a problem with Luke not showing up in TFA, and more of a problem with how he's used in TLJ, though. I would have been fine with him being AWOL for TFA if they would have utilized him more effectively in TLJ.
Also, Rey has not earned anything. In fact, none of the new characters have. The only one that came close was Finn... and they even managed to butcher that.
Are we really gonna rehash the whole "Rey hasn't earned anything" line again?
Luke didn't earn anything either. Neither did Anakin. None of these focal characters "earn" their power. Let's move on.
If there were cracks in TFA,....TLJ has opened those cracks & the ST has fallen in rubble.....some like that fact,...but the majority are dismayed
Right now I have written off the ST....just like the PT.....I'm not interested or invested in any of the new characters.....they are not Star Wars
J
We see Rey levitating 30-40 huge boulders without so much as a furrowed brow. After knowing about the Force for a week.Are we really gonna rehash the whole "Rey hasn't earned anything" line again?
We see Rey levitating 30-40 huge boulders without so much as a furrowed brow. After knowing about the Force for a week.
Luke struggled to pull his lightsaber out of a snowbank four feet away, after 3 years of practice.
“The majority”....
We also saw him block blaster fire after a couple hours training with Ben. And later he makes an almost impossible shot by using the Force.We see Rey levitating 30-40 huge boulders without so much as a furrowed brow. After knowing about the Force for a week.
Luke struggled to pull his lightsaber out of a snowbank four feet away, after 3 years of practice.
Having Rey not know who she is and not know her place in the galaxy isn't compelling enough of an arc without some sort of internal conflict that can be illustrated clearly on screen. It's part of what makes real life so frustrating when you can't articulate into words why you may be struggling with your identity, so how is it interesting when you have a character who is going through the same thing but has absolutely no doubts, fears, hopes, for this incredible power she is able to tap into? She doesn't seem to be tempted to tap into the darkness so there is no conflict there. She may be aware of it, but she's not tempted to use it so it's not the same thing. If the stakes aren't raised on a personal level and we aren't worried that she might not live or be able to save the day then how can we root for her? Plus Yoda tells Luke that she already knows everything she needs to know so there honestly isn't anything Luke or the Jedi Books can really teach her. So there is no conflict there either because there is no teaching that may result in her struggle to learn about her powers or lessons that may conflict with a belief she has. She already knows everything and has mastered the Force without any effort or struggle of ANY kind.
Rey has no connection to any of the characters that are involved in this galactic conflict and she has no reason to stay, in fact all she wants to do is go back to Jakku and wait for her family. She has no reason at all to even be involved with the Resistance other than the script dictates that she needs to be there because she is the lead character. She could have easily delivered BB-8 to the Resistance and left for home. While I know that one could argue that the Force was awakened in her, then how or why doesn't that seem to answer the question of why her? Without SOME answers we as an audience struggle to care about her and what is happening on screen.
So if she doesn't know who she is, she doesn't have any interesting family history, she doesn't seem to have any weakness, she can pilot any ship she needs to, she can speak multiple languages, she can defend herself against more than one opponent, and she is able to use the Force without any effort or temptation to use it for evil, then HOW is she compelling as a character? Surely they could have used any of those pieces to give her some sort of interesting conflict that she could overcome?
There is no struggle for her to overcome other than she doesn't know who she is. That in and of itself is NOT compelling. There has to be some sort of flaw or temptation or element to her character or the story that will put her at risk because without that danger she is simply invincible and characters like that can be pretty boring and hard to relate to.
I think the point is that Luke was taught by others who knew how to use the Force and he had some inclination towards it because his father was a Jedi. Even then we witnessed him learn and sometimes even struggle with his abilities. We saw him bullied and attacked and other people had to come to his rescue at times. He wasn't always capable of holding his own in every scenario. We saw him tempted to give in to his anger and impatience to the point were we worried that he could fall prey to the Dark Side. We as the audience could sense that he was in danger. Vader was far stronger than Luke and we knew that he could turn or be killed by Vader. We watched his powers and confidence grow over the course of the three original films and eventually he was able to face Vader on his own and prove both his teachers wrong by redeeming his father rather than killing him. Luke was strong in the Force but he wasn't without flaws or conflict.
Plus Luke never hesitated to enlist his friends help when necessary. Leia, Han and Luke did things together! That could have been an interesting character arc for Rey. Perhaps she could have continually got herself in over her head, despite how capable she was after fending for herself for all those years alone, and she needed to learn to rely on her newly made friends to help her out. It would have given her and the new characters more screen time together and given each of them a purpose by illustrating this idea during the messes they get into. Plus it would have given Poe, Finn, and others a chance to shine by showing off their strengths and weaknesses as well. But Rey is good at everything and if we question it we are sexist and can't handle strong female characters. Leia is and always will be a BAD ASS above ANY female Star Wars character and she was there from the very beginning. She was a better shot than both Han and Luke and she was the leader of the Rebellion and more importantly she was Carrie Fisher. Rey is nothing compared to Leia.
Kylo and Rey are evenly matched in their abilities so we never get the sense that she is ever in harms way. She never even gets injured. I am fine with the fact that she can hold her own in some cases. I mean she lived alone for all of those years fending for herself, but is it really necessary for her to be good at everything without effort? It insults the intelligence of the audience if they give no explanation of how she gained at least SOME of these abilities?
Things that I believe about Rey given what we know about her in TFA:
-She is mechanically inclined so would have some idea how to fix things
-She is tough enough to defend herself because she does live alone on a harsh desert planet
-She can speak multiple languages because she interacts with lots of species of aliens on her world and at the junkyard
-She does the right thing by not selling BB-8 and generally looking out for him so she does have at least a conscience that she listens to
Things I don't necessarily buy:
-She is capable of flying any ship
-She would know how to use the Jedi mind trick
-She would be able to resist Kylo Ren's mind probe
-She is capable of using a lightsaber against a trained Dark Side user without so much as a scratch and besting him. Injured or not Kylo was holding his own until the very end of the fight.
-Chewie would let Rey pilot the Falcon after Han died.
-Leia trusts that Rey would be able to convince Luke to return to the fight even though Luke will have no idea who Rey is.
-Despite hearing about the Force and learning about her ability with this power, she is not tempted to use it for her own purposes after having lived a harsh life and only having to look out for her own survival.
The one example I can think of that actually shows SOME conflict in Rey is when she is tempted by Unkarr Plutt's offer of rations if she sells him BB-8. She considers it but after looking at him and realizing how helpless he is, she pities him and tells Plutt that the droid isn't for sale.
Had there been more moments like that for Rey where she is tested to do the right thing, or be challenged in ways that would force her to grow as a character, or overcome some flaw or temptation then I know fans would have been more on board with her.
I'd also argue that the issue of "Vader was much stronger and might kill Luke" is the same with Kylo Ren. The only reason we never doubt that Rey will survive is the same reason we don't really doubt whether Luke will survive: they're the heroes of their respective tales. They aren't going to die abruptly (it ain't a George R.R. Martin book, after all...).