stopeverything
Well-Known Member
D3adrock or something like that
Graflex Variations: Facts and vs. Replica
- Thread starter scottjua
- Start date
Looks vintage to me
stopeverything
Well-Known Member
Some more photos that were not on my facebook page.
stopeverything
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys! I'm incredibly elated about it. I was definitely leaning towards converting it to ANH.
Can't go wrong with anh. If it was me I'd wait for tfa to come out before converting. Reason being, idk what level of sa you're going for but that model you have there is the most common 3 cell available, and my best guess is the model used for the new film. If you really want a dead nuts anh or esb you need one of the very early model 3 cells.
my 2 cents
whatever you choose though that's a great piece and welcome to the club!
Sym-Cha
Master Member
That model is most likely the same as used for ANH as well, the last G R A F L E X flash that rolled out of the factory in Rochester, NY was around 1972 so it could have been on set for STAR WARS, however since we've never seen a picture of the bottom of Luke's ANH lightsaber it still remains a mystery which version it was for certain ... at least for one of Empire's sabers we're quite sure it was a bottom 3cell with only 'Made by Folmer Graflex Corp.', no patent # and 'New York U.S.A.' written in full :
Those with New York written in full are not easy to come by and usually have the wrong red button attached ... anyhow personally George nor I do care which version you use as long as it's believable as Luke's lightsaber :wacko
Chaim
Those with New York written in full are not easy to come by and usually have the wrong red button attached ... anyhow personally George nor I do care which version you use as long as it's believable as Luke's lightsaber :wacko
Chaim
I love a good healthy discussion, and I would love to see this thread get the attention and level of investigation that the ANH DL-44 has. That being said I can say with 99.9% certainty that the model stopeverything posted pics of is NOT the variation used for ANH. Incorrect clamp lever, incorrect bottom tube, incorrect glass eye.
I really don't want to discourage anybody but when I apply the same nitpicking, as has been done with other props, to figure out every little minute detail about Luke's hero sabers a pattern begins to emerge.
Like Chaim stated the only clear shot of the bottom of a Graflex we have is the wampa cave in ESB, where we see Made by Folmer-Graflex Inc and New York spelled out in full, like the picture in the post above. However, there is one more detail about the wampa cave saber, the THIN lip around the edge, which the above pic does not have. The ANH saber DOES have a thin lip bottom tube though, as seen in the infamous toe pic. Also seen in all of the reference material I've gathered for both ANH and ESB we can see that the clamp lever has a very shiny/polished looking finish, as opposed to the matte finish found on the later model flashes. Additionally we can see that the pin holding the lever to the screw doesn't have a head to it and is darker in color than the lever, again unlike the machined shiny plated pin found on later model flashes. Going even further when you look at the glass eye on the ANH saber the finish is matte not shiny, and the profile seems to be that of the earlier models.
So what am I getting at?
If we cross reference all of the screen shots, bts, and pre/post production shots, although we can't see every specific detail in every shot, there is always at least one or two details that can be seen that point to one very specific variation of Graflex being used. Made by Folmer-Graflex Inc, New York spelled out, thin lipped bottom, shiny/polished lever, non-machined dark lever pin, and the deep dish matte finish glass eye.
Just like this one, which also has the correct red button
This 3-cell matches every reference photo I've found for both ANH and ESB, even when being very skeptical and trying to prove myself wrong
I would LOVE to hear everyone's thoughts
I really don't want to discourage anybody but when I apply the same nitpicking, as has been done with other props, to figure out every little minute detail about Luke's hero sabers a pattern begins to emerge.
Like Chaim stated the only clear shot of the bottom of a Graflex we have is the wampa cave in ESB, where we see Made by Folmer-Graflex Inc and New York spelled out in full, like the picture in the post above. However, there is one more detail about the wampa cave saber, the THIN lip around the edge, which the above pic does not have. The ANH saber DOES have a thin lip bottom tube though, as seen in the infamous toe pic. Also seen in all of the reference material I've gathered for both ANH and ESB we can see that the clamp lever has a very shiny/polished looking finish, as opposed to the matte finish found on the later model flashes. Additionally we can see that the pin holding the lever to the screw doesn't have a head to it and is darker in color than the lever, again unlike the machined shiny plated pin found on later model flashes. Going even further when you look at the glass eye on the ANH saber the finish is matte not shiny, and the profile seems to be that of the earlier models.
So what am I getting at?
If we cross reference all of the screen shots, bts, and pre/post production shots, although we can't see every specific detail in every shot, there is always at least one or two details that can be seen that point to one very specific variation of Graflex being used. Made by Folmer-Graflex Inc, New York spelled out, thin lipped bottom, shiny/polished lever, non-machined dark lever pin, and the deep dish matte finish glass eye.
Just like this one, which also has the correct red button
This 3-cell matches every reference photo I've found for both ANH and ESB, even when being very skeptical and trying to prove myself wrong
I would LOVE to hear everyone's thoughts
well played sir
I'm gonna take this another step further. I noticed a couple unique things about the red button on my thin lipped folmer new york flash.
The bevel on this red button, from the outer edge down to the red button itself has two angles cut into it as opposed to just one straight plane down to the button, like would be found on most of the red buttons I've seen. Also the knurling around the outside of the button cuts up into the smooth portion at the top, again unlike most red buttons I've seen.
And when I look at the reference photos I'm pretty sure this can be made out on the ANH saber
The bevel on this red button, from the outer edge down to the red button itself has two angles cut into it as opposed to just one straight plane down to the button, like would be found on most of the red buttons I've seen. Also the knurling around the outside of the button cuts up into the smooth portion at the top, again unlike most red buttons I've seen.
And when I look at the reference photos I'm pretty sure this can be made out on the ANH saber
Sym-Cha
Master Member
Just to discuss any of the claims l33tLX makes ... the infamous Toe-Pic is from an even
much larger picture than we usually see . . . here's just the bottom of that same frame :
. . . there's also the rest of Luke on top ... I've seen a postcard of it ... alas I don't have the
full frame shot . . . as a photographer I know that light can play a lot of tricks on how we
perceive and interprete props ... especially from pictures alone :
... the outer bottom edge partly covered in shadow of the T-tracks could still be a bit larger then what it seems at first glance,
though it does seem to be thinner than most G R A F L E X flashguns I've obtained. However here's another example of a New
York with slightly thicker edge :
and the telegraph style red button also with New York and larger edge which is supposed to be the
eldest of all flashguns :
So eventhough l33tLX might be correct about the thinner edge on the bottom, he might also be the only one to have found one ... most flashguns have a thicker edge and I just doubt if Luke's Hoth/Wampa saber is really any thinner than usual :
That said l33tLX did not mention anything about the electric brass pins in the sockets ... as seen in
my book 'The Magic of Myth' :
there's a clear picture of Luke's ESB the Ranch version with the textured tape, which as we can see here in an even better picture of that prop has raised lips on the pins :
. . . while the one l33tLX has, does have all straight pins as seen in his pictures . . . as for parts such as the lever and the glass eye being more shiny or chromed . . . that's always possible depending on how the flashgun was produced and handled over the years, now for the smaller and slightly darker and suggested 'non-machined' screw-pin in the lever ... that might actually be indeed another tell which version was used to nitpick about ... though again I find it hard to tell from the Toe-Pic alone which pin was used. I for one won't be able to claim with 99.9% certainty which version was used for ANH based on the evidence in pictures alone.
Chaim
much larger picture than we usually see . . . here's just the bottom of that same frame :
. . . there's also the rest of Luke on top ... I've seen a postcard of it ... alas I don't have the
full frame shot . . . as a photographer I know that light can play a lot of tricks on how we
perceive and interprete props ... especially from pictures alone :
... the outer bottom edge partly covered in shadow of the T-tracks could still be a bit larger then what it seems at first glance,
though it does seem to be thinner than most G R A F L E X flashguns I've obtained. However here's another example of a New
York with slightly thicker edge :
and the telegraph style red button also with New York and larger edge which is supposed to be the
eldest of all flashguns :
So eventhough l33tLX might be correct about the thinner edge on the bottom, he might also be the only one to have found one ... most flashguns have a thicker edge and I just doubt if Luke's Hoth/Wampa saber is really any thinner than usual :
That said l33tLX did not mention anything about the electric brass pins in the sockets ... as seen in
my book 'The Magic of Myth' :
there's a clear picture of Luke's ESB the Ranch version with the textured tape, which as we can see here in an even better picture of that prop has raised lips on the pins :
. . . while the one l33tLX has, does have all straight pins as seen in his pictures . . . as for parts such as the lever and the glass eye being more shiny or chromed . . . that's always possible depending on how the flashgun was produced and handled over the years, now for the smaller and slightly darker and suggested 'non-machined' screw-pin in the lever ... that might actually be indeed another tell which version was used to nitpick about ... though again I find it hard to tell from the Toe-Pic alone which pin was used. I for one won't be able to claim with 99.9% certainty which version was used for ANH based on the evidence in pictures alone.
Chaim
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And here's a link to another thread in which I posted my theory on Luke's Hero saber being the same hilt used for both ANH and ESB and where the parts from said saber are currently residing. About halfway down page 2 starting at post #41
http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=232217&page=2&highlight=luke+saber+story
I've also come up with some more supporting info as well to back up my claims.
My new findings are as follows.
Two design features that changed from the early models to the later ones are the construction and finish of the clamp lever, and the finish of the rivet that secures the beer tab to the top tube. They went from the shiny plated clamp lever and non-machined pin to the matte lever and a much nicer looking machined pin with a larger head. And the beer tab rivet goes from being a matte plating to a shinier plating. Obviously there are pins and markings on the bottom tube but lets just focus on the lever and beer tab rivet, these being structural pieces that secure things to the flash. Why would they change the design on these parts? Were they having problems with failures perhaps? Hmmmm
And if everything else in my theory holds up and there was only ever one Hero saber ANH and then reworked for ESB, then becoming the top half and clamp on the Ranch saber, with the bottom tube being used for the Vader ROTJ Graflex, lets look at what parts were broken or lost along the way. Well wouldn't you know it between ANH and ESB we lose the tab and post, and after ESB the lever pin and clamp screw go missing, the same two pieces that Graflex as a company changed in their design.
Food for thought
http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=232217&page=2&highlight=luke+saber+story
I've also come up with some more supporting info as well to back up my claims.
My new findings are as follows.
Two design features that changed from the early models to the later ones are the construction and finish of the clamp lever, and the finish of the rivet that secures the beer tab to the top tube. They went from the shiny plated clamp lever and non-machined pin to the matte lever and a much nicer looking machined pin with a larger head. And the beer tab rivet goes from being a matte plating to a shinier plating. Obviously there are pins and markings on the bottom tube but lets just focus on the lever and beer tab rivet, these being structural pieces that secure things to the flash. Why would they change the design on these parts? Were they having problems with failures perhaps? Hmmmm
And if everything else in my theory holds up and there was only ever one Hero saber ANH and then reworked for ESB, then becoming the top half and clamp on the Ranch saber, with the bottom tube being used for the Vader ROTJ Graflex, lets look at what parts were broken or lost along the way. Well wouldn't you know it between ANH and ESB we lose the tab and post, and after ESB the lever pin and clamp screw go missing, the same two pieces that Graflex as a company changed in their design.
Food for thought
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Sym-Cha
Master Member
While I was writing my elaborate post some new pieces of the puzzle were added by l33tLX ... so as for that red button he's got ... what I find even more intriguing is the slight bevel on the bottom of the knurling see red arrow :
It's non apparent on any of my red buttons, the knurling goes straight down ... though one does seem to have a slight straight edge on top to suggest 2 angles before the bakelite red button itself ... or at least I asume it's made of bakelite :wacko
Chaim
It's non apparent on any of my red buttons, the knurling goes straight down ... though one does seem to have a slight straight edge on top to suggest 2 angles before the bakelite red button itself ... or at least I asume it's made of bakelite :wacko
Chaim
Sym-Cha
Master Member
Sure ... so do I from that point of view ... not from my picture though :wacko However I do have a better picture of that darker pin the lever :
Chaim
I definitely now see the deeper dish on some Glass eyes...weird.
We also know that a Thin-Knurled flash was used as a fencing stunt - well at least the button was used on a flash-based fencing stunt, so the early flash bodies were on set.
Be careful here. Anything used for fencing would not have been a belt hanger. Looking at the ROTJ Vader and the ANH tubular stunt for an example, an aluminum solid piece was inserted beneath the bulb socket, allen-bolted in and a rod led up through the socket and into a stunt blade.
We also know that a Thin-Knurled flash was used as a fencing stunt - well at least the button was used on a flash-based fencing stunt, so the early flash bodies were on set.
Be careful here. Anything used for fencing would not have been a belt hanger. Looking at the ROTJ Vader and the ANH tubular stunt for an example, an aluminum solid piece was inserted beneath the bulb socket, allen-bolted in and a rod led up through the socket and into a stunt blade.
