Pikezer1337
Active Member
Never seen such a divide. I also still think the audience score is going to drop more.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
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Never seen such a divide. I also still think the audience score is going to drop more.Pyronaut44
New Member
The massive disconnect between many reviews from 'professional critics' and 'normal' people is quite disturbing, there's always rumours of bought reviews and critics being afraid of falling out of favour that I've largely dismissed but I've never seen it like this and it gives me pause for thought.
Somerset
Sr Member
TLJ was something of a mixed bag to me.
I enjoyed and appreciated the overall direction the film took in terms of plot and I think that wider audiences will probably find a lot to enjoy. I was entertained for most of the two and a half hours, so happy with that and am actually able to look forward to the next film from where they left it.
However, there were lots of problems, most of which have been mentioned already and many of which were apparent during the film (as opposed to ones that only become clear after you think about them for a while), so that was something of a disappointment.
I'll make a list of annoyances and questions, since that seems popular, but still found enough to like to not despair of it (maybe for another post)!
That opening 'comedy' routine between Poe and Hux was so cringe-worthy and really set a bad tone for me. It went on for too long and Gleeson plays Hux way too cartoonishly for me. It set the tone for some of the other 'funny' parts which were just off the mark. I did like the porgs though...
Poe vs. the Dreadnought was also disappointing, with some of the flight dynamics which I find a bit jarring compared to previous installments. Too reminiscent of BSG...
As was the escape the FO fleet plot. BSG did it better (granted that a TV format is probably better for building tension). My thoughts throughout were that a couple of star destroyers could jump ahead and cut them off, or even they could use TIE bombers (which they even showed in DJ's holograms later). They could have written something in like 'Let's head towards that star (or black hole or something) so that they can't jump ahead of us.
Ackbar went out like a punk. Eurgh.
I'm glad Leia got to use her Force powers. Even if it had been just to survive would have been fine, but to float? I think the Poppins description is apt.
Didn't really have much of a problem with the portrayal or mindset of Luke. I think maybe there should have been a purpose to him being there on that particular island - I mean why go to the first Jedi temple if you plan to cut yourself off from the Force and 'to die'. I was hoping that he might have come up with something a little more radical from his discoveries about the Force. Nevertheless, I guess this shows how conflicted he is and uncertain about what his role and the fate of the Jedi should be, so was able to enjoy it.
I could have done without the giraffe milking. I'd have liked to have him just sit at the top of the mountain meditating for days on end while Rey watched, kinda bored. The fish-chicken-nuns were inexplicable and kind of took away from the whole hermit vibe Luke had going on.
I'm afraid I didn't get the Rey-mirror scene. It kind of felt like it was from Harry Potter. Was it meant to show that she was simply herself and not a product of any particular forces. Or maybe that she wasn't going to find the answers she wanted?
I did like the Kylo-Rey dynamic as I watched it, but afterwards did think that while Luke wanted to redeem Vader because he was his father, I'm not sure why Rey thinks she can redeem Kylo, especially after her initial hostility and anger towards him for killing Han.
The Poe-Holdo storyline with the mutiny was fine as it at least gave Poe something of an arc, but it would have been much better if Holdo had told Poe the plan to get to Crait and the conflict could have come naturally from disagreeing about what the right way to be a leader is rather than simply being kept in the dark.
I liked Rose and Finn together, they had a good dynamic, but their plotline ultimately amounted to nothing so I feel like it could have been used more productively. Canto Bight made the same mistake as Maz's cantina and didn't include any species from the pre-TFA movies which would have made the galaxy feel more cohesive. Some of the Farnier (?) riding CGI was pretty bad. DJ was fine though would have liked to have seen him make a reward-based decision to save Finn and Rose from the mega-destroyer once it was clear it was going down. He just disappeared though once he was paid.
All the Snoke - Kylo - Rey scenes were good. Snoke was good in close-up, but I thought some of the full-body shots looked a bit ropey. I thought that surely Snoke knew what was about to happen, but apparently not. The fight with the guards was fun. I'd have liked Kylo to be a bit more convincing so that there would be the possibility of Rey joining him, but it was good enough.
The cruiser ramming the mega-destroyer at lightspeed in order to save the transports seemed such an obvious retread of the opening scene of JJ-Trek that it can't have been a coincidence.
Moving on to Crait, I'm not sure what their battle plan was in those tiny speeders against all the walkers and the cannon. They didn't seem to be armed. It seemed that the only way they were going to take it down was to crash into it, yet Poe and Rose clearly didn't want Finn to do it. Maybe they'd have been happy to let rebel pilot #5 bite the bullet on that one if they hadn't already died. Throughout the film the Resistance pilots seemed to die quite trivially (as opposed to ANH or TESB where each pilot death meant something).
Interestingly, I thought that since Luke was a projection for his fight with Kylo, there was actually no lightsaber on lightsaber duel in the film, which would be the first in a saga film (Kylo blocking Luke in his version of the flashback doesn't count).
Anyway, plenty more to say, but I'm at work and the boss will probably think I've been writing a long email so think I need to produce something....
I enjoyed and appreciated the overall direction the film took in terms of plot and I think that wider audiences will probably find a lot to enjoy. I was entertained for most of the two and a half hours, so happy with that and am actually able to look forward to the next film from where they left it.
However, there were lots of problems, most of which have been mentioned already and many of which were apparent during the film (as opposed to ones that only become clear after you think about them for a while), so that was something of a disappointment.
I'll make a list of annoyances and questions, since that seems popular, but still found enough to like to not despair of it (maybe for another post)!
That opening 'comedy' routine between Poe and Hux was so cringe-worthy and really set a bad tone for me. It went on for too long and Gleeson plays Hux way too cartoonishly for me. It set the tone for some of the other 'funny' parts which were just off the mark. I did like the porgs though...
Poe vs. the Dreadnought was also disappointing, with some of the flight dynamics which I find a bit jarring compared to previous installments. Too reminiscent of BSG...
As was the escape the FO fleet plot. BSG did it better (granted that a TV format is probably better for building tension). My thoughts throughout were that a couple of star destroyers could jump ahead and cut them off, or even they could use TIE bombers (which they even showed in DJ's holograms later). They could have written something in like 'Let's head towards that star (or black hole or something) so that they can't jump ahead of us.
Ackbar went out like a punk. Eurgh.
I'm glad Leia got to use her Force powers. Even if it had been just to survive would have been fine, but to float? I think the Poppins description is apt.
Didn't really have much of a problem with the portrayal or mindset of Luke. I think maybe there should have been a purpose to him being there on that particular island - I mean why go to the first Jedi temple if you plan to cut yourself off from the Force and 'to die'. I was hoping that he might have come up with something a little more radical from his discoveries about the Force. Nevertheless, I guess this shows how conflicted he is and uncertain about what his role and the fate of the Jedi should be, so was able to enjoy it.
I could have done without the giraffe milking. I'd have liked to have him just sit at the top of the mountain meditating for days on end while Rey watched, kinda bored. The fish-chicken-nuns were inexplicable and kind of took away from the whole hermit vibe Luke had going on.
I'm afraid I didn't get the Rey-mirror scene. It kind of felt like it was from Harry Potter. Was it meant to show that she was simply herself and not a product of any particular forces. Or maybe that she wasn't going to find the answers she wanted?
I did like the Kylo-Rey dynamic as I watched it, but afterwards did think that while Luke wanted to redeem Vader because he was his father, I'm not sure why Rey thinks she can redeem Kylo, especially after her initial hostility and anger towards him for killing Han.
The Poe-Holdo storyline with the mutiny was fine as it at least gave Poe something of an arc, but it would have been much better if Holdo had told Poe the plan to get to Crait and the conflict could have come naturally from disagreeing about what the right way to be a leader is rather than simply being kept in the dark.
I liked Rose and Finn together, they had a good dynamic, but their plotline ultimately amounted to nothing so I feel like it could have been used more productively. Canto Bight made the same mistake as Maz's cantina and didn't include any species from the pre-TFA movies which would have made the galaxy feel more cohesive. Some of the Farnier (?) riding CGI was pretty bad. DJ was fine though would have liked to have seen him make a reward-based decision to save Finn and Rose from the mega-destroyer once it was clear it was going down. He just disappeared though once he was paid.
All the Snoke - Kylo - Rey scenes were good. Snoke was good in close-up, but I thought some of the full-body shots looked a bit ropey. I thought that surely Snoke knew what was about to happen, but apparently not. The fight with the guards was fun. I'd have liked Kylo to be a bit more convincing so that there would be the possibility of Rey joining him, but it was good enough.
The cruiser ramming the mega-destroyer at lightspeed in order to save the transports seemed such an obvious retread of the opening scene of JJ-Trek that it can't have been a coincidence.
Moving on to Crait, I'm not sure what their battle plan was in those tiny speeders against all the walkers and the cannon. They didn't seem to be armed. It seemed that the only way they were going to take it down was to crash into it, yet Poe and Rose clearly didn't want Finn to do it. Maybe they'd have been happy to let rebel pilot #5 bite the bullet on that one if they hadn't already died. Throughout the film the Resistance pilots seemed to die quite trivially (as opposed to ANH or TESB where each pilot death meant something).
Interestingly, I thought that since Luke was a projection for his fight with Kylo, there was actually no lightsaber on lightsaber duel in the film, which would be the first in a saga film (Kylo blocking Luke in his version of the flashback doesn't count).
Anyway, plenty more to say, but I'm at work and the boss will probably think I've been writing a long email so think I need to produce something....
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RedVader1978
New Member
What you are seeing is die hard fans vs fans who like force awakens and those who embraced the new saga. Its the same war. Prequels and old trilogy. Now people can't complain its out of Lucas hands. And going in a new direction like star wars die hards wanted
I have absolutely no problem with the new characters being brought into the mix and I like Rey/Kylo/Finn/Poe as the new characters moving forward.
This movie lost all credibility with its weak retelling of ESB and too many serious plot holes and WTF moments.
The humor did not bother me as much as others, but once Leia got shot into space, the movie started downhill and was going to be really hard to turn around.
Mark Hamill said he did not like what Rian did with his Luke character in this movie and boy was he right. Luke was a whining old man bitch who gave up on everyone because of Kylo’s dark side and he ran away like a scared little bitch instead of standing up to him and Snoke for 15 years?!? Yeah right. That is just plain stupid and a waist of a potential great movie for Luke Skywalker. The supposed myth and great legend of the galaxy.
You realize Disney never shows Luke fighting in a great lightsaber battle like ESB and ROTJ or even the Rey:Kylo fight in TFA. Luke just ducked Kylo’s saber and back’s away stalling him. There was no big compelling final Luke battle. It would have been way better if Luke actually raised his X-Wing out of the water and actually showed up to save the day and then sacrifice himself.
Luke’s story was a complete failure to everyone including Mark Hamill. I’ll bet in time when all the hype dies down, Mark disowns how Rian wrote his character in this film and admits it should have been done differently and way better. A Sad life and ending for the hero of the OT. At least Harrison got his way with his Character Han being killed off and in an interesting unexpected way. Good for him.
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This movie lost all credibility with its weak retelling of ESB and too many serious plot holes and WTF moments.
The humor did not bother me as much as others, but once Leia got shot into space, the movie started downhill and was going to be really hard to turn around.
Mark Hamill said he did not like what Rian did with his Luke character in this movie and boy was he right. Luke was a whining old man bitch who gave up on everyone because of Kylo’s dark side and he ran away like a scared little bitch instead of standing up to him and Snoke for 15 years?!? Yeah right. That is just plain stupid and a waist of a potential great movie for Luke Skywalker. The supposed myth and great legend of the galaxy.
You realize Disney never shows Luke fighting in a great lightsaber battle like ESB and ROTJ or even the Rey:Kylo fight in TFA. Luke just ducked Kylo’s saber and back’s away stalling him. There was no big compelling final Luke battle. It would have been way better if Luke actually raised his X-Wing out of the water and actually showed up to save the day and then sacrifice himself.
Luke’s story was a complete failure to everyone including Mark Hamill. I’ll bet in time when all the hype dies down, Mark disowns how Rian wrote his character in this film and admits it should have been done differently and way better. A Sad life and ending for the hero of the OT. At least Harrison got his way with his Character Han being killed off and in an interesting unexpected way. Good for him.
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DarthLee
Sr Member
If its true that TFA and TLJ are geared toward the younger crowd. Im not sure the younger crowd can follow it. It somewhere in between, not cartoon enough for younger, but not deep enough for older. Its like confusion.
Its not Peter Pan, but not LOTR. I dont know where to class it. Certainly not OT or Pre.
Its not Peter Pan, but not LOTR. I dont know where to class it. Certainly not OT or Pre.
Darth Lars
Master Member
If you look closer, you will find that both Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic have categorised some negative and mixed reviews as positive.
You can't trust them.
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mattycsi
Master Member
I guess that helps show how undeveloped Luke was in Jedi. While the emperor was explaining his fully operational deat star to Luke, with his saber on the throne, Luke should've just turned it round and lit it with the force. Job done.
It was a weak and lazy death to a character that is supposedly in the same league as Vader and Palpatine.
No, this time there are more people like me, that liked and embraced the new films but see this film as an abomination.
joshvanrad
Sr Member
Jedi-72
Sr Member
Hadn't planned to, but I ended up seeing it. At least it didn't pay for the ticket. It was every bit as bad as I had expected. Problems too numerous to enumerate. But, a big one seemed to be simply NOT UNDERSTANDING Star Wars at a fundamental level. Right from the beginning with the damn prank call on the middle of what should be a dramatically tense scene. It' like they were trying to make it Guardians of the Galaxy and Poe was doing an impression of Rocket or Quill. Not for this movie. I felt little of the humor worked because it was almost ALWAYS at the wrong time. The biggest laugh was Luke's feel the Force joke.
I don't want to waste time pondering it, but it also seems that the Finn and Rose storyline was a complete waste of screen time. It achieved nothing and the if excised, wouldn't have changed a thing. End result of what was happening is the same. There was zero point for it.
Honestly, I was shocked at the near word for word throne room reenactment from Jedi. The entire film was 50/50 Jedi and Empire, just not as well done. On the bright side, Hamill was excellent. But, as a movie, awful.
I don't want to waste time pondering it, but it also seems that the Finn and Rose storyline was a complete waste of screen time. It achieved nothing and the if excised, wouldn't have changed a thing. End result of what was happening is the same. There was zero point for it.
Honestly, I was shocked at the near word for word throne room reenactment from Jedi. The entire film was 50/50 Jedi and Empire, just not as well done. On the bright side, Hamill was excellent. But, as a movie, awful.
joshvanrad
Sr Member
Imo, it didn't seem like any sort of recreation. If anything they listened to the criticisms that TFA was too much like ANH, so they made something so original it wasn't even Star Wars.
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Not sure how many caught it, but Rey took the Jedi books and hid them in the Falcon, theres a shot near the end where you see them in a drawer. Kinda explains why Yoda didnt care about blowing up the tree...
Also, didnt Luke say he'd give Rey 3 lessons... and I only remember him getting to saying #2?
Also, didnt Luke say he'd give Rey 3 lessons... and I only remember him getting to saying #2?
mattycsi
Master Member
RedVader1978
New Member
Kinda funny how rey and Yoda scammed Luke.
Jedi-72
Sr Member
If there was ever any question as to whether Rotten Tomatoes is bought and paid for. If Ghostusters didn't settle that, this should, with the huge gap between the "pros" and the audience. I know some people fall over with their skirts up over an RT score that is nothing more than rigged marketing tool, but this should convince people to stop trusting it.
DarthLee
Sr Member
At one time long ago in a galaxy far away, they were trusted 3rd part review. But now.. wow..
Thats how I ended up here.
joshvanrad
Sr Member
Just waiting for our daily update from Bryan on what our critic rating is on TLJ.
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Pyronaut44
New Member
Yeah this is the nail in the coffin for RT as far as I'm concerned.
I'm a little surprised at those calling out TLJ's detractors as being the old OT vs PT vs NT thing, it's nothing like that at all. Completely ignoring the 'Star Wars' in TLJ, it is objectively a poor movie, with pacing, acting and major plot issues.
If this was a new franchise it'd have got shat on by the general audience and critics alike.
I'm a little surprised at those calling out TLJ's detractors as being the old OT vs PT vs NT thing, it's nothing like that at all. Completely ignoring the 'Star Wars' in TLJ, it is objectively a poor movie, with pacing, acting and major plot issues.
If this was a new franchise it'd have got shat on by the general audience and critics alike.
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