Well I think the PT utterly failed in explaining exactly what being a Sith really means or why they are so powerful and unique. However, I assume Qui-gon could tell Maul was a Sith via some visual cue or fighting style (maybe yellow eyes are unique only to Sith or something) when he reported to the council that he believed the attacker was "a Dark Lord of the Sith". We know from TPM that the Jedi believed the Sith were extinct but that wouldn't rule out other darksiders. The Sith were just a particularly dangerous and threatening sect (for reasons that largely remain unexplained). Unless lightsabers are solely ceremonial, I assume there was still a practical reason why Jedi carried them and were so good at saber to saber combat. I think it could be chalked up to more than simple training.
The PT introduced the notion of "bringing balance to the Force" and the "chosen one" stuff, which I always thought was stupid because it never made any sense as it was explained. However, I wonder if that could've been intentionally nonsensical. Maybe the Jedi were mistaken and too self absorbed to correctly determine what the prophecy actually entailed. I think that could be where the ST is going with things. The only way there can be balance is to recognize that everyone has a darkside and not banish or ignore it. There can only be balance with equal parts light and dark. Maybe that's what Luke is coming to realize. George had said many years ago the ST would be more philosophical and explore the "shades of gray". Good and evil might not be so black and white.
Both issues can be traced directly back to George's style of writing and how the films were structured. Realistically, what should have happened is that Anakin works as the audience surrogate (the same way Luke was in ANH) to whom things must be explained. As Anakin is trained, he'd need to learn about the Dark Side of the force. He'd also need to learn who the Sith are, since they are the ones he faces. This would allow his tutor the opportunity to provide a bit of exposition to clear this stuff up. E.g., "The Dark Side is that part of the Force driven by anger, fear, hatred, and which ultimately leads to evil. The Sith were an order of the most devoted practitioners of Dark Side manipulation, who nearly enslaved the galaxy over 1000 years ago before they were defeated and utterly destroyed by the Jedi. Since that time, there have been other Dark Side users, but they have been wild, untrained, and ultimately defeated by the Jedi. The figure we fought, though, was clearly trained in what I am sure were ancient Sith arts." Then when Anakin says "How do you know" he explains that he has studied the Sith in the archives, but such things are only for the highest ranking and most closely trusted Jedi like Master Windu and Master Yoda." And that builds Anakin's growing resentment of not having enough power, yadda yadda yadda.
Now, it's not
directly relevant to the films (that the Sith are just one kind of dark side user), but you could work it into the films. Instead, Lucas' style has always been to, like, drop a reference to something and then...not really explain it. The new film had some of this, too. Referencing the Knights of Ren without explaining who they are. I expect they will be explained, though, precisely because of the whole "Wait, I thought the Sith were the bad guys?" issue that you (understandably) point out.
Yep don't know what I was thinking ?
If I ever run into someone wearing jackboots and an all black officer uniform who has found Hitlers skull, keeps it on a shrine and talks to it .
Who has his own personal gas chambers built .
Who goes to a Jewish school and wipes it out with a custom built Walter ppk looking side arm.
I will know better than to call him a Nazi .
He is not .
he is the new archetype of dark side practitioners that has emerged to fill the void left by the Nazis demise obviously !
Well, technically, we refer to such people as
Neo-Nazis, rather than Nazis themselves, but congrats on Godwinning the thread either way!
And Kylo's master.
who has Plagueis exact back story of secretly controlling events from the Shadow's for years, same expected physical wound's from surving Palpatines attack, and musical cues but of course is not Plagueis.
I'm sorry, but can you refer me to the Plagueis backstory that remains canonical? As far as I know, the only backstory we have -- the only
official backstory, anyway -- is the story Palpatine tells Anakin at the opera house. As far as I can recall, there was no mention of Plagueis generally manipulating the galaxy from the shadows for years, nor the precise manner of his demise, other than dying in his sleep. I mean, for all you know, Palpatine poured poison in his mouth, and there were no visible wounds. If all we have to go on are the EU novels, then you can't rely on them and we're back to the "but why'd they have to get rid of the EU?!?!" debate.
Give me minute I'm trying to get this strait in my head.
The writers *came up* with Snoke all by themselves. some have claimed they never even heard of Plagueis before they just happen to write snoke as exactly the same . they then have Ben training to be Jedi but who gets woo'd away by Snoke. is ordered to return to kill all the students. And is now 2nd in command of a rising empire seconded only by a leader who appears as a huge hologram dressed in a black robe.
Those writers presented there ideas.
which make perfect sense if it is the Sith continuing there reign .
But said here is the twist, you're gonna love this even though we completely retold parts of every star wars movie that came before this one to some extent our idea is , wait this is really good !
there not even Sith BOOM fresh and original .
So ultimately what your saying is the wook is right ?!?
They are trying to passed off the same old story as original?!?!?!?
I could accept the circular storyline if this is the same 20,000 year old battle between the Jedi and the Sith .
But to rehash the past story and then try to put your fingerprint on it by changing the name of the Villain's while leaving literally everything else the same is complete B.S.
Everyone keeps saying things like let's do something new . or it is expanding the universe.
but new or expanding is NOT a name change while leaving everything else EXACTLY the same now is it ?
Two things.
First, to be fair, we don't know the full story yet. All we have are the initial hints of a story, and a lot of people are simply filling in the blanks based on past stories and current assumptions.
Snoke's goal vis a vis the Force could be...nothing. Maybe he doesn't even
have Force powers himself, he's just really good at manipulating and BSing impressionable young chuckleheads like Ben Solo. Like many cult leaders, he may simply be a guy who knows how to influence people without actually having special magic powers. Towards that end, the Knights of Ren might simply Force wielders that Snoke has manipulated into working for him.
Or they may be a Dark Side faction with a wholly different philosophical stance than the Sith. We have no idea, but I expect the distinction will eventually be drawn. If that doesn't happen, then yeah, I agree that the use of Snoke and the Knights of Ren will have been pretty silly and pointless and will render them more like the Knights-Who-So-Recently-Said-"Sith!". But it's a little early to make that call, I think.
Which is fine, and could have been more dynamic than the PT, IF they do that.
But what you're suggesting is that they are different, which again, could be good.
Unfortunately, that's not what they've been showing. With Hans death they are explicitly showing the new "bad guy" version to be strait up evil. Sith with a different name.
Which, IF that's so, does retcon the PT, since they had absolutely no reason to assume Maul and Siduous were Sith, if other options are available. It also throws a wrench at RotJ, since we've already been asked to accept that becoming one is a direct result of being dark side. (The entire scene of the Emperor trying to bring out Luke's anger, even if its at him... Not to mention Vaders belief that it's too late, regardless of personal desire, as it's not something you call yourself, it's something you are as a direct result of being dark side).
Again... I'm ok with either... Make them fundamentally different: cool! Or make it just a name of an organization rather than an adjective, scrapping some of what happened in TPM: also cool!
Both together doesn't really work though. Not even if we really reeeeeeeeaaaaaaach for It.
And ultimately, the most logical option available is to stop being stubborn about it and have Ren eventually come to terms with the fact that they ARE a continuation of Sith ... Which frankly he pretty much says flat out that that's what he wants anyway.
I don't recall him saying that (not saying he didn't, just that I don't recall it). I thought he wanted to succeed where Vader failed. So, towards that end, he'd lift what he thinks works, and try to reject what he thought didn't work. Maybe Kylo Ren can't find any old Sith teachings and that'll be part of the new films -- him hunting for them. Or maybe it'll be something else. I dunno.
I don't think it's a retcon of the PT because the PT never really established who/what the Sith were, and therefore there's not that much there to really retcon in the first place. I do think that's kind of a failure of the PT, but at that point, the series could simply fall back on the EU to fill in the blanks. Now we're rebuilding all of that, so we don't have the backstory to rely on.
I don't know how they're gonna take this, but I do expect they'll distinguish the two bad guy groups at some point, the same way that the First Order is not the Empire.
The Star Wars franchise has never really been good at explaining what is meant by "balance" with regards to The Force; perhaps intentionally. I'm hoping they'll address this in the subsequent Sequel Trilogy movies and that the characters (or at least Luke) will come to realize "balance" is exactly as you've described it--not equal numbers of Light Side and Dark Side users that create a stalemate in their centuries-old war, but an understanding that true balance is achieved when each individual acknowledges, understands, and controls the "good" and "bad" to create harmony within themselves. Given the nature of the stories told within the Star Wars franchise (in all of it's manifest forms) that seems unlikely at this point, but I believe it would be the only way to truly define "balance".
Again, I chalk most of this up to Lucas' style of writing. He'd throw out a prophecy without even understanding it himself, or rather would use words that he thinks are totally unambiguous, but which can easily beinterpreted differently. Case in point, he apparently has said in interviews that "balance to the Force" meant "destroy the Sith." Because apparently destroying evil = balance? I think George would tend to toss around ideas without really having a clear, fixed backstory in mind, which I suppose makes sense when he considers even the stories he'd commit to film as "stories that I can mess with whenever I like."
It is a heartwarming end (OOT), and I loved it as a kid, none the less it's still cliché and makes no sense in the broader story. I don't see TFA as undoing it, rather it begins explaining why blowing up the Deathstar 2 and killing Palpatine was only a small step towards galactic peace on a very long road.
Remember the end of Watchmen? Nothing ever "ends."