Who is darth Vader to YOU? Jones, Prowse, Christensen?

[Michael Bergeron]

Wow...I didn't realize that sounded as snarky as it does when I typed it OB (my quote, not yours). I was enjoying the discussion & hope my asking about the title didn't come off as insulting. If I did, I am sorry.:facepalm

:lol No worries mate. :thumbsup

If I had a nickle for every time something I typed was taken the wrong way I'd be a very rich man!

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I was only sharing my experience of how 2 kids viewed the Vader saga as a whole. I wasn't trying to lift one portrayal above another, but come on. Take the blinders off & realise it's the same character.

Yeah, maybe I just don't see the character that Obi-Wan describes in Star Wars in the selfish whiny brat with a large ego who goes around murdering left and right while being a Jedi. Though the character Obi-Wan describes was doing wrong, you still got a sense that he didn't stoop to being a innocent women and child killer - otherwise Obi-Wan wouldn't be talking so kindly about the Anakin he knew. That's just beyond repulsive.

And the Alderaanian ship was seized during a time of civil war, suspected of being traitors, so not in that sense, innocents. There was no war when Anakin killed the sandpeople - he just got mad because his mom died - or when he murdered unarmed Geonosians when barging in on their sleeping quarters, just because they had captured Obi-Wan trespassing. Yup... that absolutely gives you the right to just kill everyone... sure. They are supposed to be Jedi, not Sith.

I neither feel sorry for the character and feel sickened by the way he's shown to be redeemed at the end by doing something he should have done 20-30 years ago by killing Palpatine. The same way that I don't feel sorry for selfish, whiny brats in real life who blames the world for them doing bad things.

 

[NAZGÛL]

The Vader ghost is looking like Anakin when he was good right? How could he look like anything else but the young Anakin before he turned/died/became Vader? It dont understand the angry fans prefering him looking like something he never looked like.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Old Anakin that Luke talks to is good. He's let go of his hate. So, if the thought is that the ghost is showing the last time Anakin was good... then... it's still Sebastian Shaw. End of story.

If you go the other way... then not only is Anakin a selfish, whiny brat with a huge ego who kills everyone because he feels like it, he also gets redeemed and his ghost being his young self, while Obi-Wan and Yoda are left as ghosts looking like their old selves for eternity. Talk about another kick in the groin for those two who sacrificed everything... only to see Anakin take the price even when becoming a Force ghost. Yup. If Lucas is teaching us anything it is that those who absolutely DO NOT deserve it GET IT and those who do deserve it get shafted, even in the afterlife.

 

[NAZGÛL]

Old Anakin that Luke talks to is good. He's let go of his hate. So, if the thought is that the ghost is showing the last time Anakin was good... then... it's still Sebastian Shaw. End of story.

Then he should have looked like this:

Not like this:

Anakin never looked like that happy old man. He ceased to be Anakin when he was still young.

"Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed."

If you go the other way... then not only is Anakin a selfish, whiny brat with a huge ego who kills everyone because he feels like it, he also gets redeemed and his ghost being his young self, while Obi-Wan and Yoda are left as ghosts looking like their old selves for eternity. Talk about another kick in the groin for those two who sacrificed everything... only to see Anakin take the price even when becoming a Force ghost. Yup.

Yoda and Ben looks like they did when they died, as do Anakin.

If Lucas is teaching us anything it is that those who absolutely DO NOT deserve it GET IT and those who do deserve it get shafted, even in the afterlife.

Lucas show us that you can redeem yourself and that its never to late to do whats right. Anyway, would it all be ok and fair as long as Anakin looked old as a ghost?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Anakin didn't die as a youth. Sorry. Just because Obi-Wan uses that analogy to explain why Anakin isn't acting like the Anakin he thought he knew anymore, doesn't make him dead.

Symbolically it doesn't make sense to show young Anakin as the ghost at the end. Even IF that is the place people see that as being the last time he was good. It wasn't. He ceased to be Anakin when he was young, but he became Anakin again when he was old and let go of his hate... and then died. So... young Anakin isn't the last time he's "Anakin". Should they have shown him all scarred and **** as a ghost? Well, they didn't show him in his Vader costume or any of the other costumes Anakin had been wearing, EVER. So that's wrong too.

Personally. I like it how it was originally. It does not connect to a selfish, whiny, arrogant, mass-murdering brat. It connects to the scarred, flawed man Luke saw when he took off the helmet.

 

[Tobot]

I'm going with a combination on prowse and jones, as that's what we get on screen.
you can't take away that prowse contributed the visual elements that we see, every little mannerism and bit of prescence thats there is him. Jones provides the audible aspects and no more.
To say that you could have put any large man in the suit denys prowse everything he contributed.
Just my opinion as that's what this threads all about, but no one will ever put their finger on it because in part its magic ;-)

*Edit* In my opinion everything they did in the prequels took something away from vader instead of enriching him

 

[NAZGÛL]

Anakin didn't die as a youth. Sorry. Just because Obi-Wan uses that analogy to explain why Anakin isn't acting like the Anakin he thought he knew anymore, doesn't make him dead.

Thats Lucas writing. The ghost scene fits well with this. The old one doesnt after showing the Anakin story in the prequels. We know he never got that old before turning to this:

Symbolically it doesn't make sense to show young Anakin as the ghost at the end. Even IF that is the place people see that as being the last time he was good. It wasn't. He ceased to be Anakin when he was young, but he became Anakin again when he was old and let go of his hate... and then died.

He never had the time to grow to the person we see in the original scene. We would have to make up something about the force changing him to something new, a "what if he grow old and was good" look. Thank God we dont have to as the scene was replaced with the logical one. Symbolically it works just fine.

So... young Anakin isn't the last time he's "Anakin". Should they have shown him all scarred and **** as a ghost? Well, they didn't show him in his Vader costume or any of the other costumes Anakin had been wearing, EVER. So that's wrong too.

Having a standard set of Jedi Robes is not a far stretch. Why would one person only have one set of clothes? But why would he, and he alone get a totally new appearence, that he never could have looked? Very far stretch.

Personally. I like it how it was originally. It does not connect to a selfish, whiny, arrogant, mass-murdering brat. It connects to the scarred, flawed man Luke saw when he took off the helmet.

Sure, I can respect that, but then there is a big stretch to why he looks that way. I have no problem seing that a selfish arrogant mass murdering person like Vader wasnt a perfect flawless person before he was seduced. I think you might miss the points in why Anakin lost to the dark side though. He loses because of love and passion.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

He loses because Lucas wrote him as a selfish, whiny brat. Good for you that you enjoy that characterization and feel a sense of closure when he's redeemed. I do not. Never will. To me Anakin in the prequels were never "good" - except when played by Jake Lloyd. The rest is just watching an arrogant ******* become more arrogant and starts murdering people left and right and gets pretty clean away with it too even though he tells it to someone. I don't feel the need to follow the exploits of that kind of character so his inclusion at the end is just a sickening reminder of the selfish, whiny brat who murdered people before going bad.

If they'd went with the "good" Anakin, then it should have been Jake Lloyd as the ghost.

 

[NAZGÛL]

Well thats you choosing not to see the films as intendeed. You have every right to do so, but you might miss the points of the films.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Seeing as a continuation of this is OT to the thread and will just deteriorate into yet another PT vs OT debate that I have no interest in (and I assume most others don't either), I'll leave it be at this.

*Edit* In my opinion everything they did in the prequels took something away from vader instead of enriching him

 

[Darth Lars]

This may be painful for some to hear but Christensen and Sebastian Shaw are the only one's to play Vader without a mask (that I'm aware of). They're the only one's that we can put a human face to for Vader.

For me, Vader is not Vader until he gets the mask. Christensen and Shaw played only Anakin Skywalker, not Vader.

When Anakin fought Obi-Wan on Mustafar, there was still a chance that he would turn back to the light side. For me, he was still Anakin at that point. When Luke removed Vader's helmet, Vader was gone and Anakin had come back.

With the mask came the breathing, the voice and the mannerisms. Muir, Burrt, Jones and Prowse each contributed with one component, and Vader would not have been Vader without any of them.

Symbolically it doesn't make sense to show young Anakin as the ghost at the end.
[...]
Personally. I like it how it was originally. It does not connect to a selfish, whiny, arrogant, mass-murdering brat. It connects to the scarred, flawed man Luke saw when he took off the helmet.

I absolutely agree. I have more arguments for Shaw:

Luke is the only one in the party seeing the ghosts. The images are in his mind and it would not make sense for him to see an incarnation of Anakin Skywalker that he had not seen before.

Shaw is also successfully projecting the image of being a proud father. That is something that Christensen did not do, and with his youth would not be able to do. Instead, Christensen looked embarrassed to even be there. It is as if he did not agree with Lucas for putting him in the new revision...

 

[TK9120]

I totally agree with this.

And to your point on the ghosts, it never occurred to me that Luke is the only one seeing the ghosts. He's seeing them as they looked to him. Makes perfect sense! So there's no reason for Christensen to be there.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Anakin in the prequels didn't change a thing about the character. He's the same guy that killed a ship-full of Alderaanians except for the princess in the 1st 10 minutes of ANH. It's just that now we know the depths of his fall. Same guy folks on here dress as, with no qualms, & I've heard noone complain about Shaw showing up in ROTJ to show Anakin's redemption.

I was only sharing my experience of how 2 kids viewed the Vader saga as a whole. I wasn't trying to lift one portrayal above another, but come on. Take the blinders off & realise it's the same character.

I had no problems with Darth's redemption before the PT came out. However afterwards was a different story, in the OT he's a bad guy, but we don't see just how EVIL he is until we see him as a young man. The character really has no redeeming qualities that I can see, (my 10 yr old brought this to my attention) he is selfish and without any humility or self restraint (vow of celibacy?), the ability to use the force is the only thing that seems to qualify him to be a jedi. I felt pretty bad for Sebastian Shaw getting booted from the end of the movie just so GL could "attempt" to connect Hayden's portrayal to the OT. I'm sure it was cool for him to have his grandkids see him as "the guy" under the mask at the end of such a timeless film. Speaking of that why didn't he replace Alec with Ewan? or Yoda with that lame puppet from PM? LOL. Mostly the inconsistencies are do to poor writing and not the actors portrayals. Makes me glad I hung onto the video tapes of the OT. I still love watching them like that, warts and all! RBCSW Obi Wan "you speacial edition MF!" funniest SW joke I ever saw!:lol

 

[MooCriket]

Well, if I was going to be a ghost...and had a choice I would not choose to be an old crusty ghost, I would want to look like my younger self. Anakin was always selfish and conceited, so why would he not choose to appear as a younger version of himself?

Just saying. And just because...JEJ is Vader.

 

[cboath]

At the same time, if he was supposed to have been redeemed at the end, the older, wiser shaw version would not want to associate himself or his memory with the twit he was in his youth.

Besides, as being visions for Luke, anything other than shaw would have luke thinking WTH are you? And not being all smiles and happiness.

The Anakin of TPM was pure hearted little kid. The Anakin of AOTC and ROTS was a spineless, selfish tool who was more easily manipulated than any person in history. Killing villages in AOTC, lying to everyone throughout, etc. Even in Mustafar he'd slaughtered tons of children from the Jedi Temple - ostensibly only to save his wife? This after killing the head of the Jedi Council only to save his wife? It doesn't make me think of him as evil, just as stupid and easily manipulated with no brain of his own.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Makes me glad I hung onto the video tapes of the OT. I still love watching them like that, warts and all!

On DVD there is the 2006 separate disc versions of the OT. ****-poor quality, but at least it's the real movies. Sadly, you HAVE to buy them with the crappy SE.

 

[Propaholic]

Don't get me wrong, I liked Hayden. You got a look at Vader when he was still a young adult, and you were able to see how he became Vader. Most people I think they don't like him because of the voice after he's in the suit, but you still have to think of course his voice is going to change as he became older. There might be other reasons why people don't like that version, but to me I think that's why people don't like that version of Vader.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

On DVD there is the 2006 separate disc versions of the OT. ****-poor quality, but at least it's the real movies. Sadly, you HAVE to buy them with the crappy SE.

I still cling to those discs! :lol

For the record on the other argument I'm with Too Much Garlic. When redeemed he was Shaw so he should be Shaw as a ghost. Everyone else looks like they did when they died so why not him?

If you want to slip some vain in there you can say that's why he added his hair back.

 

[NAZGÛL]

It doesn't make me think of him as evil, just as stupid and easily manipulated with no brain of his own.

And in the end he went from being manipulated by the Emperor to being manipulated by Luke.