Vader ESB 'hero' cape/robe details

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by kurtyboy, Feb 1, 2006.

  1. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Did the cape have a satin trim all around the edge and if so, how wide was it?
    How wide was the leather collar?
    Was the robe pleated?
    Did the robe also have a satin lining?

    Any other details I should be aware of?
     
  2. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    The satin trim (at least I personally think it was satin) was just on the bottom of the cape. I would say it was 2 inches.
    The collar looks to be about 1.5inches wide.
    The ESB robe was pleated.
    The robe in ESB did not have a satin lining as far as I can tell...


    :cheers,

    Thomas
     
  3. KevVader

    KevVader Sr Member

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    ...there are some shots where it definitely looks like there could be about a 1" border along the side hems of the cape. Could also be reflection as well....hard to say tho...

    I peg the collar width at about 1 3/4"....also the inner robe length to be about to the bottom of the ankle...pretty sure that the inner robe wasn't lined. If so, I'd love to see a cap....
     
  4. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    So, border or no border? Along just the bottom or sides too? Satin border or is it just a row of stitching?

    Anyone got pictures showing a satin lining on the robe?

    Cape wrap around, is it 230° and not 270°?

     
  5. mikajedi

    mikajedi Well-Known Member

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    Hi marcus,
    I don't know If you have this pic, but I send it.
    I have to say that's difficult to give you some answers about this cape, but I would like also to know more about it.
    [​IMG]
     
  6. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    That's the inside of the cape you're seeing.

    Check the scene near the end of ESB when Vader walks down the stairs after the Millenium Falcon escapes into hyperspace. I don't have the screen caps handy but the satin lining is pretty obvious and just on the bottom. Also check when Vader says to the bounty hunters "There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon". He does a turn and the camera follows the bottom of his cape. You'll see it there as well. I don't have the screen caps handy here at work :).

    :cheers,

    Thomas
     
  7. Darth Kahnt

    Darth Kahnt Sr Member

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    Yes Thomas is correct. I remember those scenes vividly.
     
  8. KevVader

    KevVader Sr Member

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    [​IMG]

    ...similar to this shot....I don't think it's the sating lining hanging down...I think it's a sewn border made from the same satin as the lining.

    Yes, a lot of shots seem to show the lining from the interior of the cape folded over and giving the impression of a border along the side hems. This would be because the lining has not been top-stitched into the body of the cape.

    However, it does seem in some shots that there may be a satin border along the side hems where the lining may have been folded over the width of the hem (1" or so) and then sewn.....I'll try and find a reference shot....

    ....as a side note, take a look at the pic that Mika posted and notice how low over the cod that the buckle sits....If there is one thing that I've learned is that the only consistent thing about the OT Vader costumes is their inconsistencies. :p
     
  9. TMP

    TMP Sr Member

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    The bottom is Satin lining not the satin of the cape it self.. This is not leather.
    The colar is leather.
    Inside the down the cape it is leather to make weight down the capes side.
    The cape has the satin on the inside. And yes in allot of senes you se the edge folding outwards.
    The robe got the satin inside.
     
  10. TMP

    TMP Sr Member

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    This our cape and robe is.

    Robe Details
    [​IMG]

    Robe folding
    [​IMG]

    Cape details
    [​IMG]


    Robe split
    [​IMG]


    The cape do have a satin folding on the end of the cape.
    The interior is satin.
    There is leather down the cape to make heavier and stronger.
    The colar is made of leather it is aprox 1.5 inch at the ends and it goes to max 2.5 inches in the center of the back.
    The robe to my knowlege does not have the folding on the back.
    The robe has a split from waist and down.
     
  11. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Anyone got ESB photos showing the satin lining on the robe?
     
  12. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Bump. Anyone got pictures that show the satin lining on the ESB hero robe??
     
  13. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    What about how the cape is constructed? Made from how many sections and how are they stitched together?
     
  14. ob1al

    ob1al Sr Member

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    Just to note re. the lining - the Star Wars archives book has a Vader costume picture on page 14 showing a section of lining hanging down further than the cape. It looks as if the lining is not sewn around the bottom hem of the cape, just left loose.

    Interestingly, the cape and inner robe also appear to be shorter than usual - could this be a 'stunt' robe which Bob Anderson wore?

    Sorry I can't post a scan, perhaps someone has the photograph to hand?
     
  15. Durasteel Corporation

    Durasteel Corporation Well-Known Member

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    I dont buy that it was a satin edge.....satin is the worse edge material to use as it frays and splits so easily.

    It was most likely very thin garment leather, more than durable and shiny.



    Purist: There were probably several capes used in the film.

    Idealist: And if I might add, Im sure Vader had a closet full.

    Realist: a leather edge can be sewn on easily, has a shine, and is very durable and Id bet money thats what we are seeing.
     
  16. KevVader

    KevVader Sr Member

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    ....not if the satin is hemmed......

    I'm not too sure about the leather....even the softest leather won't flow as well as a fabric....

    However, I do agree that there must have been several variations of the cape used throughout the OT....
     
  17. Darth Phaeton

    Darth Phaeton Well-Known Member

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    There are NO edge trim what so ever on the ESB Cape, the one you see in the pic where Vader leaves the bridge is just dust/dirt, nothing else. Any one that has done a little vader trooping no this, the Cape gets dirty on the bottom.
    The robe has NO satin lining, but is pleated at the level of the chest box.

    Dan
     
  18. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    On the ESB poster of Vader flanked by two troopers on a red background there doesn't appear to be any satin trim down the sides of the cape or a satin lining on the robe.

    This is most likely a hero cape/robe set since its used for publicity and they almost touch the floor.
     
  19. Darth Phaeton

    Darth Phaeton Well-Known Member

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  20. KevVader

    KevVader Sr Member

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    [​IMG]

    ....you're saying that's dust on the bottom of the cape?

    I don't think so, Dan...

    The crew had to keep the floors of the sets very clean as the floors reflected everything. I'm sure some dust made it's way to the floor at some point....but there's no way that's just dirt/dust on the bottom cape edge....
     
  21. vaderdarth

    vaderdarth Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    No trim on the lower edge of the cape...............it's the satin lining layer showing under the wool layer.........which is why it's irregular in height from left to right. It fools alot of people.

    Dave :)
     
  22. Darth Kahnt

    Darth Kahnt Sr Member

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    Man, the lining sticks out quite a bit if thats the case.
     
  23. Durasteel Corporation

    Durasteel Corporation Well-Known Member

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    See I dont really buy into the satin lining showing under the wool Dave because we are seeing at least 3 or 4 inches of shiny material. Because we are seeing so much shiny material, it seems to me that that would indicate either a crappy tailoring job (talk about someone forgetting to trim the satin) or it was intentionally left long. I buy the fact that we might see a hair of shiny material under the vertical length of the cape, ie, the sides as it curls over a bit, but even then we never see more than a half inch to an inch....and this is at least 3 to 4 inches of material. The shiny material follows the same exact route the wool does, so the argument that the the darker wool is someone cinched higher as its on the outside just doesnt add up.

    Now a satin edge would be silly. It would fray and tear up within several hours.


    A leather edge makes sense.


    I should note that I have a 3 or 4 inche leather edge sewn to my cape and being a Prowse sized guy....appreciate it as the leather edge does exactly what youd expect....looks shiny and wont fray.


    Again, its entirely possible and almost certain that LFL had several capes.

    We know there was as least some kind of stunt cape and tunic as well as armor.

    I would be suprised if there werent various capes...capes are easy to make for a studio.

    I think if we work through the motions, there is enough room to presume some capes had edges, others didnt....and for those that appear to have a bottom edge, leather makes more sense than satin (trust me).


    EDIT: garment leather is the ideal thickness. Very thin, rather like a thin leather jacket. It flows very well (is very flexible), but helps to keep the cape from blowing up too high and does not add real weight to speak of at that point.
     
  24. KevVader

    KevVader Sr Member

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    ....well, unless you're rock climbing with the cape on, a hemmed satin edge will hold up just fine.

    I use garment leather for the collars of the cape that I offer.....and yes it is thin and flexible. But to get the shiny appearance of the leather it needs to be tanned and treated. This treatment is a very thin coating which protects the leather. It also makes it stiffer than untreated leather. It just doesn't flow as well as a fabric...also if you look at the screen caps, the edge shown is very shiny...looks like a satin to me.....

    I will agree tho that if it is the lining hanging out that much, then LFL sure hired some crappy seamtresses/tailors to make the capesets....
     
  25. ob1al

    ob1al Sr Member

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    Here's the image I'm talking about from the archives book; look at how much silk lining hangs down on the left hand (as we look at it) side:

    [​IMG]

    Sorry about the quality, I took a photo of the book as my scanner is knackered.
     
  26. marcvs66

    marcvs66 New Member

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    Yep - Dave's definitey right on that one... I agree 100% - it's just the lining sticking out... no leather-edge [cape wouldn't drape right and there really is no purpose/need to protect the edge of the cape]... sloppy craftsmanship is the answer - as so often seems to be the case in the SW movie/prop-making universe.
     
  27. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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  28. TMP

    TMP Sr Member

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    Take a look at the clip were Vader Kneels in front of the Hologram.
    It is a SATIN Trim going arround. Its not the satin folding down from the inner cape. This is Stiched. If it folded outwards while kneeling the material under whould be uneven. Also the way the cape hangs the trim arround if it was just hanging whould be uneven. It is NOT leather going arround.
     
  29. TMP

    TMP Sr Member

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    ob1al... What is wrong with the photo you show?
    That is the Stunt cape and robe.

    In fact in the scene at Hoth the cape and robe is even shorter.
    Dont take a photo from a book. Take a photo from the movie.
     
  30. Durasteel Corporation

    Durasteel Corporation Well-Known Member

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    woah hold on thats a huge jump in logic. :) A shine can be created with a nice garment leather just the same as satin. Actually, some satins can absord light as well. I regularly buy leather and work with a leather repair fella. There are plenty of thin, flexible leathers that could create the same shine as """satin""" Lots of historical leathers were thin and covered armor. There shine was quite evident.

    As for sloppy tailoring I find this a weaker argument simply because by ESB, the LFL budget was much bigger and Vaders costume was clearly overhauled. A crappy edge would have been noted in the ILM costume reviews in which the costumes were worn and the actors moved and posed to review the costume. A three or four inch overhang would have been caught, Im pretty sure. ;)


    try cement or many other urban environments...or sets that contain edges... ;)


    you guys need to think about set-lighting. Its not the same as holding a piece of leather in one hand, and a piece of satin in the other and saying a-hah, we have a shiny winner. Set lighting is essentially the dual between intentional light and shadow. Ive been on a handful of sets and done costumes attesting to this balance. I guess what Im saying is simply that while NONE of us can prove what the hell the edge was....

    ....it is going a bit far to assuredly declare it satin.



    As for this photo...I suspect it could be a stunt cape. Very short.
    [​IMG]

    That actually brings up a good point...given the sheer paucity of reliable photos, I think all this is rather moot.

    My advice to anyone trooping, get a garment leather edge. DO NOT risk your expensive wool scraping---even every so often --- on the ground or an edge. If you spent all that money on a good cape, dont let it get scuffed. Unlike Darth Vader, most of us dont have two dozen capes in the hypercloset.
     
  31. TMP

    TMP Sr Member

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    The Red background photo is a Promo Photo.

    This is what i said about a helmet.
    To speak about accuracy its almost virtually impossible because people fall in love with one photo and say that is Accurate.

    Yes i agree if you want one like the Photo then that is what you should go for.

    But another guy looks at another photo and say HEY THIS IS ACCURATE..
    I want it like that.. Then he should go for that.

    I personally think i go for what i se in the movie in the majority of the scenes.
    I do not belive in promo shots, or exibits. I se the movie and i se the details that i se there. I do not go for one scene. I look at the largest % of what i se and got for that. If people want a half cape and robe that is a stunt then go for the stunt version. I go for what was intented to show and what was used the most in the movies.

    IN ANH,ESB ROTJ all have satin lining and satin trim in most of the scenes.
    I added the leather on the Trim on the vertical edge on my capes, but those can be removed if requested. But these are NOT visible for the eye. But it makes the cape hang nicer on the front.

    As far as the Robe... Nobody seam to accept what i say....
    But the Robe has a SPLIT on EACH side of the Legs. You can also se this in the movie but ALSO se this in the PROMOSHOT.. Look how you can se the Red background between his leg and Robe.

    I rest my case.
    If we speak about movie accuracy then please keep to the movie.
    If we speak about a photo accuracy then stick to the photo.
     
  32. TMP

    TMP Sr Member

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    Durasteel Corporation I agree and disagree.

    A leather trim arround the cape will make it more durable. BUT also more Heavy.
    It will then DRAG the cape more to the ground. This will cause extra stress to the leather. A leather trim will not flow like the movie version.

    If you have heavy material cape and robe i agree on leather might be the best.
    But not for accuracy. For lighter material satin whould be ideal because it will flow.
     
  33. Durasteel Corporation

    Durasteel Corporation Well-Known Member

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    a curious point. can you back this up?


    here is a photo in ROTJ showing the tunic swirling quite a bit....a relatively unformly outward swirl suggests its not two pieces or we would see the material flipping over. I am basing on houplandes and coathardees of the 14th and 15th centuries which are EXTREMELY VOLUMINOUS.

    [​IMG]
     
  34. vaderdarth

    vaderdarth Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Drew, the way you can explain it away is this............When I got my GF robes way back when.............I hemmed the cape and robe myself. I decided to experiment and hem the lining and cape fabrics separately along the bottom edge.....the only places they were sewn together were on the sides of the cape. I did this because when you lay the cape flat on the floor..........and get the two fabrics the same length..........and hem them together.................then hang it on a curved surface (mannequin) the lining becomes longer than the wool and it looks like a wad or bubble of fabric ..........definitely not screen accurate. So I thought, well, let me just leave them separate and see what happens...............and I had a buddy wear it after I hemmed it that way..........and the look of the two layers when worn is identical to the shots in ESB.

    I didn't just study photos to come to my conclusion. If that were satin or leather added to the wool........it would definitely be uniform all along the bottom edge of the cape which it clearly isn't.

    Peace,

    Dave :)
     
  35. Durasteel Corporation

    Durasteel Corporation Well-Known Member

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    Cape shots (in general):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Several good hints of an edge also appear here...the scenes were probably shot at the same time:

    [​IMG]


    This photo suggest a possible edge, which curiously, seems to drape similarly to my thin garment leather edge. Its rather odd that the cape is also so long.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Either way we slice it guys, its quite inconclusive in my opinion.
     
  36. Durasteel Corporation

    Durasteel Corporation Well-Known Member

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    Oh I definately agree that hands on experimentation helps alot...I sewed my cape as well.

    As for this photo:

    [​IMG]


    I have seen myself on camera before walking and my cape edge (which is quite straight) flowed and ebbed similarly to that photo above.

    The fundamental reason I am leary of excepting an the satin lining sticking out theory is simply that an costumer worth their weight in fabric would know better...and the oversight would surely have been caught in preproduction...UNLESS this cape was a quick fix due to some other cape being damaged.

    The other reason is because a satin lining can be more rounded than a sewn on edge. Several of the photos show rather sharp L shaped angles suggesting added on edge.

    ?????????? :confused

    I wont lose any sleep over it though. Lets talk about warp and weft. :lol
     
  37. TMP

    TMP Sr Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    It shows the robe has a split.
    If you look closely on the ROTJ you se the same.
    I do not have a screen cap of it.. If someone else can do this please put this up.
     
  38. TMP

    TMP Sr Member

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    If you have a Satin Rim or a Leather rim going arround you can hem up the end of the satin lining more up. This way you avoid the visible drapeing like is refferd to. ;) Its very logic that there is a rim at the bottom and in the movie we all se this. But if it is leather or Satin can be discussed and i people can have different feelings and opinions. But one thing is for sure. The ROBE has a Split like my cape have.

    Think about it. its Very logic and smart.
    Full movement no resistant.
     
  39. TMP

    TMP Sr Member

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    BTW.... That ESB promo picture..
    What Version Stormtrooper armor is that on the left? A mix of Sandtrooper and Stormtrooper? Also if that is ESB... Were is the chain hook on Vaders Cape.
    Again promoshots i rarly look at for reffrence for a costume. I usually go for the movie. But of interest what version armor is that on the left side. It looks like they reversed the abdominal plate upside down if you compare it to the Version on the right.. And the version on the right is not the same armor as on the left. Two different helmets. One had flat lenses the other one has ovel lenses. Also note the buttons on the chest of the trooper armor one is Reversed _l shape The other is upside down. The helmets also look totaly different..

    I say. If we shal reffer to reffrence and speak about accuracy i preffer to stick to the movie scenes and the shots taken from the movie and the movie archives.
    Promoshots tend to be off. Because ESB did not have the cape on the inside of the armor. Ironic enought.. :lol :p :lol That suit is not ESB accurate :rolleyes
     
  40. HDPE

    HDPE Well-Known Member

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    The trooper on the left(when you look at the pic) with the high brow is 100% ESB.

    There was a discussion going on in another thread about the trooper on the right, his armor is ROTJ and his helmet is either a reconditioned ROTJ helmet or a strange hero helmet, odd as the promo shot is circa ESB :confused .

    Cheers
     
  41. Darth Kahnt

    Darth Kahnt Sr Member

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    The ESB Vader doesn't have a chain hook.
     
  42. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Yes it does.

     
  43. Durasteel Corporation

    Durasteel Corporation Well-Known Member

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    Actually these images could be a reflection off the boot or greave (shin armor).
    [​IMG]

    This ANH photo has a curious curve at the bottom of the white ""reflection"" so I am skeptical either way. And in all likelyhood the outside cape --even if catching air--would have blocked the light....no?? NEVERTHELESS, we are dealing with two totally differnt movies and costumes... Lets not forget that my geeky bretheren :D


    [​IMG]

    As for this photo...errr....this shot has been altered so many bloody times that its just dripping with photoshop paint. I have seen at least four versions, possibly six of this photo.

    I also submit that the robe tunic could be shorter on the sides as the shoulders vs. chest/back take up more surface area thus the robe does not sit as low on the sides, near the feet. I have noticed this problem with my own tunic experiments.

    I further submit to you that a houpelande pattern can incorporate VOLUMES of material, thus allowing for plenty of movement....no need for this split.

    [​IMG]


    * GOOD things to note though TPM :) (even if I disagree...and Im not saying I am either way, youve got a good eye) I see why you think there might be a split....but I also think there is good reason to counter that belief until more info surfaces...which it may never :unsure
     
  44. kurtyboy

    kurtyboy Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    ESB cape hook:
    [​IMG]
     
  45. Lordsandy

    Lordsandy Well-Known Member

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    On the stunt armour..........

    Maybe they added this durring the filming of ESB for the stunts and kept it for the Hero and Stunt armour used in ROTJ??
     
  46. KevVader

    KevVader Sr Member

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    ...too dark....can't see it....
     
  47. KevVader

    KevVader Sr Member

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    ....as for the robe split.....I don't know....the PR photo with the troopers suggests that there would either be a split in the cape as well (doubtful) or the cape is reeeeallly short in the back to allow the red background to show through....it almost reaches the floor in the front but is short at the back?....weird pic....
     
  48. mikajedi

    mikajedi Well-Known Member

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    Even If the topic is about the ESB hero cape, the stunt version can be interesting.
    Even If there wasn't a cape hook on the hero armor, I think there was a cape chain.
    Anyway, here's a zoom on the stunt version we can see the cape hook with a chain.
    [​IMG]
    Here's another pic of bob anderson, we can also see the cape hook and the cape chain.
    [​IMG]
     
  49. TMP

    TMP Sr Member

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    If you watch the movie closely in slow motion you se allot of things.
    I shown in 3 shots a split in the robe. If you watch the movie you will se the split if you slow it down. I have my sources as well :rolleyes

    This is what we come down to:

    ESB has Satin trim on the bottom of the Cape.
    ESB Does NOT have Satin trim on the Bottom of the Cape.
    ESB Has Satin from the lining falling down.
    ESB Does not have satin from the lining falling down.
    ESB Has a Chain on the Cape.
    ESB Does not have a Chain on the Cape.
    ESB uses a ROTJ armor.
    ESB does not use a ROTJ armor.
    ESB Has a Split in the Cape.
    ESB Does NOT have a split in the cape.
    ESB has a Short Robe and Cape.
    ESB Has a Long Robe and Cape.
    ESB Uses a Rubber armor.
    ESB Dont use a Rubber armor.

    Anything more we agree on? :eek

    My advice.. If anyone want accuracy.. Go for all of the solutions because there is not ONE answer. :love Nobody will be satisfied. If you a person make a ESB from the red promoshot then that is WRONG.. :confused Why... Because it is not the same as the STUNT were they use another actor, another costume another armor and another helmet and the cape has a chain. But what makes the Stunt less or more accurate... :confused :confused (I am ironic and a bit sarcastic with allot of humor in this) WELL THE STUNT is NOT ACCURATE... The Other Version is.. :confused Now what version is that you might ask.. ( :lol THIS WHOULD BE THE BEST TIME TO BRING IN THE MONTY PHYTON ...Because NOBODY other than those LOGIC guys could make more sence to these issues than them.)

    And If you are 5.10 Tall and with a 32 Waist size Dont even DARE to speak about accuracy if you plan to wear it. :p hehehe

    The best idea is to say to anyone planing on wanting a accurate ESB costume or any type of costume is. I plan to make a accurate costume to THIS PHOTO or THIS SCENE. :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

    I hope I do not offend anyone but i am a pure realistic. :confused
    Because whoever makes anything.. Even if it is a cast of an original someone will always get picky. An exiting example is the ongoing discussion who has the best ANH Helmet. No offence to ANYBODY.. Rather backing up the propmakers. But like i said there... It all depends on what helmet it is cast of because there were several helmets used in that movie as well. Its Promo helmet, Hero, Stunt, and probably some more helmets in case they needed some extra. I do not belive all the helmets were identical. I can not confirm if it is a recast of another or who recasted who first. But what i do se is a ANH helmet with Wide neck and one with Narrow neck. Again i belive this is reflection of what version the propmaker have fallen in love with and done/ modified / Cleaned or just raw pull.
    Because like i said before someone falls in love with a photo and to them that is accuracy. We can not ignore the fact that there is one answer to everything.


    Ladies and Gentlemen, I rest my case.
     
  50. Darth Kahnt

    Darth Kahnt Sr Member

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    I see it faintly in that picture but as was already said they must have only put it on the stunt armor because it is not prominent through most ESB.

     

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