This Y Wing pic is confusing me - What's going on here?
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Trekkie313
Active Member
Reminds me of a Pod-Racer.
richkilmer
New Member
The Mallasch referred to here was my uncle James (Jim) Mallasch. He took my sisters and I to the opening of Star Wars (I was 7) at Mann Grauman's. It was awesome. He passed away in 1988. Its sad that I don't see his name referenced on any other sites on the work he did. He was a freelance model maker.
I've been causing a bit of commotion about the pyro X-Wings on another thread, and thought I should do the same with the Y-Wings with a few thoughts I've had. The three pyro shots of the Y-Wings from ANH are a bit of mystery as to what ships were used. The consensus is that the death of Gold 5 above the Death Star is the triangles model, which the remains of still exist and were recently seen in a Profiles in History auction. And the only other known Y-Wing model is blue/gray, which some people believe was destroyed in one of the pyro shots, while others think was given to Alan Ladd Jr. So either the conclusion that most people draw is that there were one or two other pyro Y-Wings built, but there is a lack of pics of these models from that time period.
While watching the pyro footage of Gold 5 a few times, I noticed a few things. First of all, that we see a charge blow off the port engine of triangles with the supports and nozzle flying off, but we don't see the damage to that engine that is evident in the Profiles pics:
Gold 5 also does not immediately explode into a fireball like the other models, instead is drops out of frame after loosing the engine. Then the fireball appears, but the direction of the explosion comes from the bottom left corner of the screen and does not have any recognizable Y-Wing parts in the fireball. The fireball appears to be a separate filmed element composited over the Y-Wing footage. The shot is identical to how it is scripted in the fourth revised draft script, with the TIE fighter in the background, over the surface of the Death Star, the engine coming off, and the ship dropping down afterwards. But there is no fireball at that point, the script has Gold 5 communicating with Red Leader as he spirals down and crashes into the Death Star. It looks like they may have abbreviated Gold 5's death by adding the extra fireball element in to speed up the pace of the action. If triangles wasn't completely blown up at this point, it could have easily had its engine reattached to be used in another pyro shot.
That fully accounts for all the pyro shots if triangles and blue/gray are pyroed for the deaths of Gold 2 and Gold Leader. There would be no need for any mystery undocumented pyro models to exist. This assumes that it wasn't blue/gray given to Alan Ladd Jr, but TIE Killer, which was passed onto the current anonymous collector at some point. That is unless there is a source that can confirm that Alan Ladd Jr still has the model given to him by Lucas. If that is the case, then there is still another mystery pyro unknown to us.
Looking at the pyro scenes for Gold 2 and Gold Leader, I think Gold Leader best matches up to the damage we see on triangles in the Profiles pics and video. When Gold 2 bites it, the port engine flies off spinning in the foreground and the wing to it is still attached, while the wing on the Profiles pic of triangles is missing and replaced with clear plexiglass. The engine is also intact as it flies off screen, while half of the engine on triangles is missing on the Profiles pic. The cockpit and fuselage on Gold 2 also separate, with the fuselage falling out of frame while the cockpit continues its forward motion, while triangles appears to have the cockpit and fuselage still connected in the Profiles pics. However when Gold Leader dies, the engines are still attached up until the shot cuts away, but the model is noticeably on fire at that point and may have suffered more damage as it continued to burn after the cut in the footage. Triangles is missing a big chunk of the dorsal fuselage right behind the droid socket, and Profiles added a removable featureless piece to fill in the void as can be seen in the video interview. When Gold Leader blows up, the cockpit and fuselage are still attached, but the cockpit bobs up and down as it travels like it is only partially connected which is consistent the large chunk of triangles that is missing.
That's my explanation for what we see on film and from the known pics. Anyone have a different explanation?
I am confused on the engine lights for the lights. I was under the impression that only the hero Y-Wing TIE Killer had the lights installed, and that the pyros triangles and blue/gray did not have lights. We do see the lighted engines on TIE Killer in the approach on the Death Star with the black droid in back. But there is a shot through the cockpit of Vader's TIE Advanced just before he shoots down Gold 2, where three Y-Wings are in view and all three have engine lights. Did triangles and blue/gray have lights too, or was this TIE Killer composited three times in the frame? I had assumed that the surviving Y-Wing (Gold 7 in the EU) was TIE Killer because we see the engine lights. I haven't matched any other features of the surviving Y-Wing yet due to the size in the frame and the motion blur, is it possible it could be either triangles or blue/gray if they have lights too?
While watching the pyro footage of Gold 5 a few times, I noticed a few things. First of all, that we see a charge blow off the port engine of triangles with the supports and nozzle flying off, but we don't see the damage to that engine that is evident in the Profiles pics:
Gold 5 also does not immediately explode into a fireball like the other models, instead is drops out of frame after loosing the engine. Then the fireball appears, but the direction of the explosion comes from the bottom left corner of the screen and does not have any recognizable Y-Wing parts in the fireball. The fireball appears to be a separate filmed element composited over the Y-Wing footage. The shot is identical to how it is scripted in the fourth revised draft script, with the TIE fighter in the background, over the surface of the Death Star, the engine coming off, and the ship dropping down afterwards. But there is no fireball at that point, the script has Gold 5 communicating with Red Leader as he spirals down and crashes into the Death Star. It looks like they may have abbreviated Gold 5's death by adding the extra fireball element in to speed up the pace of the action. If triangles wasn't completely blown up at this point, it could have easily had its engine reattached to be used in another pyro shot.
That fully accounts for all the pyro shots if triangles and blue/gray are pyroed for the deaths of Gold 2 and Gold Leader. There would be no need for any mystery undocumented pyro models to exist. This assumes that it wasn't blue/gray given to Alan Ladd Jr, but TIE Killer, which was passed onto the current anonymous collector at some point. That is unless there is a source that can confirm that Alan Ladd Jr still has the model given to him by Lucas. If that is the case, then there is still another mystery pyro unknown to us.
Looking at the pyro scenes for Gold 2 and Gold Leader, I think Gold Leader best matches up to the damage we see on triangles in the Profiles pics and video. When Gold 2 bites it, the port engine flies off spinning in the foreground and the wing to it is still attached, while the wing on the Profiles pic of triangles is missing and replaced with clear plexiglass. The engine is also intact as it flies off screen, while half of the engine on triangles is missing on the Profiles pic. The cockpit and fuselage on Gold 2 also separate, with the fuselage falling out of frame while the cockpit continues its forward motion, while triangles appears to have the cockpit and fuselage still connected in the Profiles pics. However when Gold Leader dies, the engines are still attached up until the shot cuts away, but the model is noticeably on fire at that point and may have suffered more damage as it continued to burn after the cut in the footage. Triangles is missing a big chunk of the dorsal fuselage right behind the droid socket, and Profiles added a removable featureless piece to fill in the void as can be seen in the video interview. When Gold Leader blows up, the cockpit and fuselage are still attached, but the cockpit bobs up and down as it travels like it is only partially connected which is consistent the large chunk of triangles that is missing.
That's my explanation for what we see on film and from the known pics. Anyone have a different explanation?
I am confused on the engine lights for the lights. I was under the impression that only the hero Y-Wing TIE Killer had the lights installed, and that the pyros triangles and blue/gray did not have lights. We do see the lighted engines on TIE Killer in the approach on the Death Star with the black droid in back. But there is a shot through the cockpit of Vader's TIE Advanced just before he shoots down Gold 2, where three Y-Wings are in view and all three have engine lights. Did triangles and blue/gray have lights too, or was this TIE Killer composited three times in the frame? I had assumed that the surviving Y-Wing (Gold 7 in the EU) was TIE Killer because we see the engine lights. I haven't matched any other features of the surviving Y-Wing yet due to the size in the frame and the motion blur, is it possible it could be either triangles or blue/gray if they have lights too?
jedimaster
Sr Member
Deleted for my own sake.......
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ILMwannabe
Active Member
I don't think that any of the two Y-Wing hero models (Gold Leader & Gold Two) were destroyed for ANH - they weren't built to be destroyed. Pyro models were built differently - they had undercuts so that they would fragment the way they wanted them to, at least in theory. If you blow up a "hero", not only are you throwing away hours spent on additional detail work, but the model will not "break up" in a realistic way. The difference in construction and purpose has been documented in several books.
I checked out the video for the auctioned Y-Wing and it does not look like Gold Five ("Pops" - "triangles") to me. Based on what is left, it just looks like pieces of a blown-up pyro coupled to a leftover Y-Wing pyro cockpit and body.
Lights were usually added to the "hero" models only (Gold Leader, Gold Two). The Red Y-Wing did not have lights. However, lights can always be added later by skilled modelers. Blue Leader originally did not have lights, but they were added when it became Red Two. Again, the information comes from pictures which have surfaced, many posted here.
The Greenish/Brownish Y-Wing which survived ANH (which Lorne Peterson identified as an unexploded pyro and which appeared in ESB) had lights installed later. They are the same type as the X-Wings, housed by heat sinks. The lights have since been removed, as seen by close-up pictures of when it has been on display in many cities.
When you see three Y-Wings in one shot in ANH, all with lights on, it doesn't neccesarily mean that they were all filmed at the same time. They often filmed them seperately. (Just like when you see two or more StarDestroyers in one shot). So I do not believe that Gold Five ("triangles") had lights. It may have survived, but then again it may have been blown up more than once! Curiously, in the famous picture of the ILM warehouse which was released in 1983, there is a Y-Wing in the background with a badly burned engine. At first I was hoping that it was Gold Five, but it turned out to be just a generic pyro - no special markings.
Lastly, I would consider Gold Five and Gold Three (the brownish/greenish one) "nice" pyros because they are/were very nicely detailed, almost a shame they were built to be destroyed.
Unfortunately, there is not much material that has been released on Y-Wing Pyros, beyond Gold Three and Gold Five.
I checked out the video for the auctioned Y-Wing and it does not look like Gold Five ("Pops" - "triangles") to me. Based on what is left, it just looks like pieces of a blown-up pyro coupled to a leftover Y-Wing pyro cockpit and body.
Lights were usually added to the "hero" models only (Gold Leader, Gold Two). The Red Y-Wing did not have lights. However, lights can always be added later by skilled modelers. Blue Leader originally did not have lights, but they were added when it became Red Two. Again, the information comes from pictures which have surfaced, many posted here.
The Greenish/Brownish Y-Wing which survived ANH (which Lorne Peterson identified as an unexploded pyro and which appeared in ESB) had lights installed later. They are the same type as the X-Wings, housed by heat sinks. The lights have since been removed, as seen by close-up pictures of when it has been on display in many cities.
When you see three Y-Wings in one shot in ANH, all with lights on, it doesn't neccesarily mean that they were all filmed at the same time. They often filmed them seperately. (Just like when you see two or more StarDestroyers in one shot). So I do not believe that Gold Five ("triangles") had lights. It may have survived, but then again it may have been blown up more than once! Curiously, in the famous picture of the ILM warehouse which was released in 1983, there is a Y-Wing in the background with a badly burned engine. At first I was hoping that it was Gold Five, but it turned out to be just a generic pyro - no special markings.
Lastly, I would consider Gold Five and Gold Three (the brownish/greenish one) "nice" pyros because they are/were very nicely detailed, almost a shame they were built to be destroyed.
Unfortunately, there is not much material that has been released on Y-Wing Pyros, beyond Gold Three and Gold Five.
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Correct. The consignor has told me that it was a combo of leftover clean castings, Pyro debris, all from the 1976-77 time period. He even went so far as to snag some SatV parts, trim some L'eggs eggs, and cut some Plastruct in case he decided to build a non blown up version.
I think people are making a fundamental assumption - that any particular photo of a Pyro ship being prepped can be matched to a given scene in the movie. It is entirely possible that the take they were prepping for, for whatever reason, was a reject. The debris was swept up and the next "victim" was brought in from the model shop. Believe me, if the ILM guys could have gotten the Pyro footage on take one, they would have. It was far more trial and error than I think we realize.
I applaude the detective work, but I caution that you may not be able to find the answers....
Gene
JMChladek
Sr Member
Didn't they also do some mocked up pyro shots of some Y-Wings for "The Making of Star Wars" documentary (which was filmed after ANH came out)? That would take care of a pyro or two as well if they went ahead and shot a whole sequence.
ILMwannabe
Active Member
Mocked-up explosions for "The Making Of"? Gee, I never heard of that Jay.
I always thought the ones they show in that "Making Of" film (Y-Wings and TIE Fighters) were the "outtakes" or "rejects" since they blew up way too fast (even for a high-speed camera) and without any big fireball or pizazz.
The shortage of hero Y-Wings after ANH continues to amaze me - didn't they know there was going to be a sequel if succesful? it is known that two heroes were made, but both were unavailable by the time the next movie (ESB) was made. One went to Mr. Ladd Jr. and the other is reported to be in "private hands", but it is not discussed much. Even the book "Sculpting A Galaxy" skirts around the issue a bit . . .
I agree it is difficult to match up pyros to scenes in ANH, but I think we got lucky with the Gold Five Pyro ("triangles") - the markings in all known photos seem to match what is on screen.
NO ONE was thinking of sequels during production... as far as the "making of" stuff, Gene has told stories about what they call "The faking of The Making of" which Lorne Peterson also talked about at WF last year, lol! It's all smoke and mirrors and "dramatizations of real events", lol!
Uuuugh....ok so blue/gray is a hero then. Earlier in this thread someone was saying it was pyro and that the Y cockpit on the table of models was blue/gray after it had been blown up as a way to explain why MOM, TIE Killer and triangles were there and no blue/gray. It gets really confusing reading through older posts amongst multiple threads, as people were debating different ideas, and then trying to figure out what everyone agreed on in the end. So anytime we see a Y from behind with lit engines, it could be TIE Killer or blue/gray, and probably can ID which is which by the presence or lack of TIE Killer's little bumperettes on the rear?
A lot of posters were identifying the Profiles in History Y-Wing as triangles, I took their word for it since I didn't see anyone contradicting them. I'm not sure what they were going by to identify it. If it's not triangles, then it must be documentation of at least one other pyro Y-Wing not seen in any of the pics at that time.
Given that information, then the order of construction must have been Red Jammer first, followed by TIE Killer hero, and blue/gray hero last. TIE Killer falling into private hands after shooting and blue/gray must be the model Alan Ladd Jr was given, since both would have survived but were not available to use for ESB. And probably triangles pyro was built before MOM tour pyro (going off the fact that MOM is missing canons and appears only partially finished), both sometime after Red Jammer and before blue/gray. Which is why they appear in the picture of the models on the table with TIE Killer, but not blue/gray. And the cockpit on the table may actually be blue/gray, but before it was assembled (and not after being blown apart). Given the footage of two different fireball Y-Wings in the finished film, there has to be at least one other pyro Y-Wing built after MOM, perhaps more, that remain undocumented (except for the Profiles pyro). Does that make sense?
ILMwannabe
Active Member
I believe so based on the photographic evidence. Aka Gold Two. It was mentioned somewhere here that it is not known if the Y-Wing heroes had pilots - but I examined the nice pictures of Gold 2 again in books (such as the picture book of the Lucasfilm Archives and others) and if you look carefully, you can see something orange and white in the cockpit of Gold Two, right where the pilot would be.
Yes. The only two Y-Wings which appear in the film that I know for sure have the U-Shaped tubes in the back were the Gold Leader ("TIE Killer") hero model, and also Gold Five (Pops/"Triangles"), again based on photographs that I have seen, most posted here.
And Gold Three (Brownish/Green Y-Wing seen at many museums) had lights briefly added for ESB and then removed. Also no tubes.
On a sidenote, I was reading "The Making of SW" book again (based on Lippincot's documents) and they did mention that when it became apparent that ANH was a huge hit, things began to dissappear at ILM and locks had to be put on the doors (not an exact quote but that was the gyst of it). Hmmmm . . . .
Hmmmmm........indeed. That seems like a plausible explanation as to why TIE Killer ended up in private hands.
I was just watching the shots of Gold 7 zipping away from the Death Star and then toward Yavin's moon, albeit on YouTube so the res was a little low. Looking at the shot toward Yavin's moon from behind, I think I see the tubes on the butt end of Gold 7 which would indicate that TIE Killer was used in that shot. I'm not near my DVD theatrical version and my HD TV, so I can't check that right now. Anyone else already verified that?
ILMwannabe
Active Member
Yes it is almost impossible to tell, but when I reviewed the famous 3/4 view picture of Gold Two's left side (which was published in several books) I found something "white and orange" in the cockpit, right where the pilot would be. Not conclusive evidence, but evidence nevertheless. Most of the hero X-wings in ANH had the pilots, so it would seem to follow. But I still haven't seen a picture of Gold Leader which clearly shows a pilot inside.
I also noticed recently that the Pyro Y-Wings built for ANH did not seem to have provisions for R2 units. The area where the droid goes appears to be solid. Also, the ANH pyros did not seem to have the complex and delicate tubing/piping which the heroes did. These details may help to tell them apart (at least in pictures from the ANH era).
I found a picture of Gold Three (the brownish/greenish one) with no tubing/piping and no R2 unit hole. Seems to prove that it was indeed a pyro before it was modified for ESB. Not only was a droid and pipes added, but engine lights were also added as well.
Lastly, I know that they did try to use glass, but the reflections didn't work out well with the blue screen process. They wanted to use glass (that is why all of the ships have faceted windows like the Blue thunder helicopter, instead of curved canopies like the P-51 Mustang or F-14, F-15, F-16) but in the end, as far as I know, none of the models had any glass at all, until ROTJ.
I sent a the guy who runs the astromech website an update on the Y-Wing scale models based on what we discussed here. Here's the list I gave him:
Some updates on the Y-Wings from the RPF forum. ILMwanabe was confirming that blue/gray was a hero model and not a pyro, as well as shooting down the Profiles pyro Y-Wing as being triangles. He also confirmed your observations that the pyro Y-Wings have no droid slots. So the Y-Wing lineup at the current time is:
Red Jammer - never filmed, always had a gray plug in droid slot, currently in Lucasfilm archives
TIE Killer hero (Gold Leader) - pictured with gray/gold R2, in film with black R2, currently in private hands with the black R2 in it
blue/gray hero (Gold 2) - pictured with R2 w/ R5-D4 paintjob, in film with gray/gold R2?, currently in Alan Ladd Jr's possession with an unknown droid
MOM pyro (Gold 3) - no droid, refurbished for ESB where R2 was added, still in Lucasfilm archive with same silver/blue w/ red stripe R2
triangles pyro (Gold 5) - no droid, blown up in film, whereabouts unknown
Profiles pyro - may be made with parts from more than one exploded pyro, no droid but Profiles in History made their own and added it to the model
Does that sound like good information?
Some updates on the Y-Wings from the RPF forum. ILMwanabe was confirming that blue/gray was a hero model and not a pyro, as well as shooting down the Profiles pyro Y-Wing as being triangles. He also confirmed your observations that the pyro Y-Wings have no droid slots. So the Y-Wing lineup at the current time is:
Red Jammer - never filmed, always had a gray plug in droid slot, currently in Lucasfilm archives
TIE Killer hero (Gold Leader) - pictured with gray/gold R2, in film with black R2, currently in private hands with the black R2 in it
blue/gray hero (Gold 2) - pictured with R2 w/ R5-D4 paintjob, in film with gray/gold R2?, currently in Alan Ladd Jr's possession with an unknown droid
MOM pyro (Gold 3) - no droid, refurbished for ESB where R2 was added, still in Lucasfilm archive with same silver/blue w/ red stripe R2
triangles pyro (Gold 5) - no droid, blown up in film, whereabouts unknown
Profiles pyro - may be made with parts from more than one exploded pyro, no droid but Profiles in History made their own and added it to the model
Does that sound like good information?
I should expand on this one further. The Astromech guy sent me a blow up of the shot of Gold Leader with blue/gray and TIE Killer in the background, which has the droid in blue/gray a little more clear. It does look like it has a gray dome instead of a white dome, so it looks more like the gray/gold dome droid that we see in older pics of TIE Killer as opposed to the R5-D4 like paintjob on the R2 in the similar pics of blue/gray.
I was baffled by the droid in the Y-Wing that is fourth from the left on top in kk1's astromech collage.
Then I realized that it might be from the pic of a Y-Wing that looks similar to the pics of TIE Killer (Gold Leader) and blue/gray (Gold 2), but is not a pic of a ILM scale model:
The other pics of Y-Wing astromech droids are from left to right gray R2 in TIE Killer (Gold Leader), R5-D4 like R2 in blue/gray (Gold 2), black R2 in TIE Killer (Gold Leader), and the silver dome with blue & red trim R2 in MOM (Gold 3) that was retrofitted during ESB because it did not have a droid slot during ANH.
Then I realized that it might be from the pic of a Y-Wing that looks similar to the pics of TIE Killer (Gold Leader) and blue/gray (Gold 2), but is not a pic of a ILM scale model:
The other pics of Y-Wing astromech droids are from left to right gray R2 in TIE Killer (Gold Leader), R5-D4 like R2 in blue/gray (Gold 2), black R2 in TIE Killer (Gold Leader), and the silver dome with blue & red trim R2 in MOM (Gold 3) that was retrofitted during ESB because it did not have a droid slot during ANH.
ILMwannabe
Active Member
Sounds right to me!
I was baffled by the droid in the Y-Wing that is fourth from the left on top in kk1's astromech collage.
Then I realized that it might be from the pic of a Y-Wing that looks similar to the pics of TIE Killer (Gold Leader) and blue/gray (Gold 2), but is not a pic of a ILM scale model:
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