Things you're tired of seeing in movies

[jkno]

The same sound for a creaking door. The Wilhelm scream of doors.

 

[joberg]

I would bet Halle Bailey was cast primarily for her strong (and safely multi-Grammy-nomination-validated) singing voice. Her race probably did indeed help, but I doubt any of us would’ve been surprised if the role had gone to another popular musician, black or otherwise. When it comes to recent musicals, the main casting demographic seems to be popular musicians who can passably act / popular actors who can passably sing. Truth be told, the best performer for the role was never going to be picked, because they’re almost certainly working in musical theater.

One flaw I see in this debate around recasting race is that the issues of what stories Disney should tell and who Disney should cast often get conflated. I’m all for Disney creating new stories; as far as I’m concerned, the whole live-action remake saga is a giant unnecessary cash grab at the corporate level. But… they’re clearly going ahead in any case. So if they’re going to be producing these for the foreseeable future, then is it fair for black performers to have almost zero chance of landing a major role outside of playing an animal?

I mean, just try to name three black human/humanoid characters from Disney theatrical animated feature films prior to this decade. Can anybody?
[It says something that even the most obvious one spent the majority of her screentime as an animal.]

That doesn’t make The Little Mermaid or any other individual film automatically in need of altered casting. But taken together as a whole, across nine decades and over 40 films that prominently featured humans/humanoids, it’s pretty inescapable that white performers have disproportionately benefited.

In my view, if we’re going to get a pointless forced rehash of Disney’s animated catalog, the least they can do is make the casting ever-so-slightly less exclusive when a character's race is flexible (and really, does a mermaid's race matter?). Of course the studio will smugly pat itself on the back; no one does self-congratulation like Hollywood. But I’d rather that than the alternative of literally doubling down on the blaring absence of black animated Disney characters.

The Princess and the Frog

 

[joberg]

I wouldn't go that far. I imagine her race worked in her favor this time but it wouldn't have been enough by itself.

If the 1989 movie had been live-action, would Halle's race have worked against her back then? IMO it probably would have. Most of the US population was white and that's what they were aiming at (because, money). But I wouldn't call the 1989 casting decision "racism". IMO that's the wrong way to look at it. Just like it I don't think it's that simple with the remake casting.

That R-word has its place. But it's a heavy instrument and IMO we need to be careful about swinging it around. (We don't like it when Hollywood's P.R. machine weaponizes & abuses the term, do we? They try to disqualify fan criticisms as prejudices.) Today's race-related issues are usually not simple. Multiple factors.

And the almighty dolllar is so pervasive in everything. Studios don't always make the most profitable decision, but they are usually in a habit/pattern that they BELIEVED was very profitable when they started down that road. IMO their mistakes (straying away from max profits) usually have more to do with simple inertia than some big sinister political agenda. A studio the size of Disney is a huge ship and it takes years to make it turn.

White people: 78.8% of the total population.
Black or African alone: 13.6% of the total population.
U.S. Census Bureau July 2021

 

[Cephus]

There's no question that individuals in Hollywood try to weaponize cries of racism & sexism. Sometimes whole P. R. departments do. But that doesn't prove there's a larger agenda beyond making money. The industry has gotten fixated on the idea that leaning hard into wokeness is a money-maker.

It's partially because of the standard corporation thing about chasing new customers. Talk to anybody who has been a buyer of some product for decades (Harley Davidson, Star Wars, brands of clothes, sports leagues . . . anything) and they will tell you similiar stories. The idiots in charge are driving off thousands of real existing customers in pursuit of new ones that they won't get. Companies LOVE to lose money doing that. Not only Hollywood and not only recently.

Except we do know that they're doing that because they'll put out a movie that fails miserably and then, once they know there's no money there, they'll double down on it and put out another movie or TV show that's exactly the same! You'll see them proactively accusing everyone that they know is going to hate their movie of racism because they know it'll be unppoular. Hell, they'll do it in the show!

These companies SHOULD be about making money, but today, it's all about virtue signaling. It's why most of these companies are in such dire financial straits. It's because they haven't prioritized profit, or they think that the minuscule woke community will actually come out and see their movies, which has never happened in the history of the woke disaster.

 

[bwayne64]

What's the ole sayin' " you can't fix Stupid " and wokism is deep, dark stupid ! It's like the fungus in the Last of Us. You step on it and it wakes up all the infected for miles. It's just another symptom of post modern thought. There are no absolutes except that you're a racist, misogynist, homophobic, Islamophobic, shifty, wife beater wearing, Archie Bunker watching, neanderthal ! Whew had to take a breath, lol.

 

[Cephus]

You can't fix stupid but you can sure the hell point it out and laugh at it. You can sure the hell refuse to give money to stupid people. It might not fix it immediately, but sooner or later, the shareholders are going to start complaining about the lack of money and things are going to change, or these companies are going to go under, to be replaced by others that hopefully aren't that stupid.

 

[Tommy]

The Princess and the Frog

My challenge was to name three black human/humanoid characters from Disney theatrical animated feature films prior to this decade.

You'd have to know Princess and the Frog pretty well. But even if so, the options drop off very quickly beyond that single film.
[And again, the main character is arguably more green than black.]

White people: 78.8% of the total population.
Black or African alone: 13.6% of the total population.
U.S. Census Bureau July 2021

I'm not finding 78.8%; I'm seeing 75.8% in the July 2021 figures. But either way, that's counting Hispanic/Latino. When it comes to non-Hispanic/Latino, European white, they only make up 59.3%. It's true that Hispanics/Latinos were not differentiated in the 1940 census, but a 1950 estimate based on surnames put the Hispanic/Latino population at less than 2%, so batguy was still correct.

Meanwhile, the black population hasn't changed much; it was 9.8% in 1940. I doubt anywhere near 10% of Disney animated characters are black.

 

[simiouno]

Women being shoehorned in to male rolls ! Why not keep it traditional ? My favourite Actor was Woody Strode nobody can replace him !

 

[joberg]

My challenge was to name three black human/humanoid characters from Disney theatrical animated feature films prior to this decade.

You'd have to know Princess and the Frog pretty well. But even if so, the options drop off very quickly beyond that single film.
[And again, the main character is arguably more green than black.]


I'm not finding 78.8%; I'm seeing 75.8% in the July 2021 figures. But either way, that's counting Hispanic/Latino. When it comes to non-Hispanic/Latino, European white, they only make up 59.3%. It's true that Hispanics/Latinos were not differentiated in the 1940 census, but a 1950 estimate based on surnames put the Hispanic/Latino population at less than 2%, so batguy was still correct.

Meanwhile, the black population hasn't changed much; it was 9.8% in 1940. I doubt anywhere near 10% of Disney animated characters are black.

White alone, percent	 75.8%
Black or African American alone, percent(a)	 13.6%
American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent(a)	 1.3%
Asian alone, percent(a)	 6.1%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent(a)	 0.3%
Two or More Races, percent	 2.9%
Hispanic or Latino, percent(b)	 18.9%
White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent	 59.3%

 

[joberg]

 

[simiouno]

View attachment 1668357

the one time in history where this could sell very well !

 

[Tommy]

White alone, percent	 75.8%
Black or African American alone, percent(a)	 13.6%
American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent(a)	 1.3%
Asian alone, percent(a)	 6.1%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent(a)	 0.3%
Two or More Races, percent	 2.9%
Hispanic or Latino, percent(b)	 18.9%
White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent	 59.3%

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but I'm not clear what you're trying to illustrate...

If it's the fact that 59.3% +18.9% = 78.2% rather than 75.8%, that's because some Hispanic/Latino people are black.

In any case, white demographics are a bit beside the main point: that 10-13% of Disney animated film characters should have been black all along.

 

[batguy]

My original point was that the US pop has changed (less "white") since Disney's early stuff. I don't think that's debatable, not as a true/false.

And the effect of that shift pales in comparison to the effect of Disney pivoting towards the worldwide market.

I'm trying not to push this discussion into more heated territory than necessary.

 

[Lightning]

the fact remains that somewhere on the order of 10-13% of Disney animated film characters should have been black all along

Not really, because very few animated Disney movies star humans and are set in the United States. Snow White is set in 16th Century Germany, what do those demographics look like?

 

[JediMichael]

As far as Arial now being black for the live action movie...seemed like a surprising choice at first...but after hearing so much from both sides on that choice, I've decided that my biggest issue is that her hair should at least be a much more brighter red.
And if anyone were to say that its not realistic to be that bright..........SHE....IS....A.....MERMAID.......end of story.

 

[Tommy]

Not really, because very few animated Disney movies star humans and are set in the United States. Snow White is set in 16th Century Germany, what do those demographics look like?

By my count, using this list (minus anthologies, live-action hybrids, distribution-only and sequels) up through the last decade, at least 42 prominently feature named humans/humanoids:
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs; Pinocchio; Cinderella; Alice in Wonderland; Peter Pan; Sleeping Beauty; One Hundred and One Dalmatians; The Sword in the Stone; The Jungle Book; The Rescuers; The Black Cauldron; The Little Mermaid; Beauty and the Beast; Aladdin; Pocahontas; Toy Story; The Hunchback of Notre Dame; Hercules; Mulan; Tarzan; The Emperor's New Groove; Atlantis: The Lost Empire; Lilo & Stitch; Treasure Planet; The Incredibles; Meet the Robinsons; Ratatouille; WALL-E; Bolt; Up; A Christmas Carol; The Princess and the Frog; Tangled; Mars Needs Moms; Brave; Wreck-It Ralph; Frozen; Big Hero 6; Inside Out; The Good Dinosaur; Moana; Coco. [I probably missed a couple]

It's true than many are set outside the US. While racial demographics are a bit tough to pin down worldwide, the very rough estimates I've found place it currently around 12-15% black. Whichever way you slice it, if across 42 stories it's a struggle to come up with more than a half-dozen characters representing a 10-13% subset of your own audience, then either the story selection or the execution are skewed. Even the one human-featuring film set in Africa doesn't have black characters!

 

[greenmachines]

Phone companies reserved the 555-0100 through to 555-0199 for fictional use. If real numbers were used in movies, people would call it and disturb others (or did crank calls)

8675309

 

[Laspector]

How caves always seem to have flat floors.

 

[p51]

How about in sci-fi shows and movies, any location on a planet surface or in a big city is called "Sector ___"?
Seriously, nobody names anything in the future? Dr Who was notorious for this, a single-digits sector number for a massive location. Even the locals would sometimes have to ask, "Could someone show me where that is?" if they had never been there or not lately.
At least call it a 4 or 6-digit grid like the military does with their maps, something you could quickly punch into whatever equivalent of a GPS you're carrying.

 

[dascoyne]

How about in sci-fi shows and movies, any location on a planet surface or in a big city is called "Sector ___"?
Seriously nobody names anything in the future? Dr Who was notorious for this, a single-digits sector number for a massive location. Even the locals would sometimes have to ask, "Could someone show m where that is?" if they had never been there or not lately.
At least call it a 4 or 6-digit grid like the military does with their maps, something you could quickly punch into whatever equivalent of a GPS you're carrying.

It makes even less sense to divide outer space into quadrants.