Just saw this on FB. That was a fun interesting time, especially before the movie came out, as that hype was an absolute killer.
The Phantom Menace Re-Release May 2024
- Thread starter Jodo
- Start date
I respectfully disagree both thematically and pragmatically.
Having a "past trauma" undermines the power of the dark side as a corrupting force. Sure, you can add that element but, I find it more compelling that even a stalwart hero can be seduced by darkness rather than be driven there by a festering psychological wound. Furthermore, it would make Luke's temptation to the dark side and subsequent rejection of it more significant as a testament of will where as now you could say, "Well, Luke didn't have the kind of baggage Anakin had so he was able to beat it." The past trauma angle reminds me of the "Obi-Wan was a bad teacher" narrative which again undermines the power of the dark side as well as undermines Anakin's own agency. It also didn't do Kenobi any favors.
Then there's the simple issue of character portrayal. No matter how you slice it, it feels weird seeing Darth Vader as a child. Heck, it feels weird seeing children in Star Wars in general. Anakin as a child and Anakin as an adult might as well be two different characters as they have nothing in common personality-wise. You can blame the writing and direction for that I suppose but really, when you have two different actors at extremely different stages of their lives, the character won't feel cohesive from movie to movie. Just start him off as an adult for the sake of familiarity. You can still introduce a traumatic motivation if that's your desire.
By the way, for a slave, Anakin sure seemed like a happy-go-lucky kid. I'm not sure what the Jedi did to turn him into such an angry young man. His future looked quite bright to me. I guess it was that sinister plan that ruined that caring young man
.But seriously, I can't square away that the "YIPEE!!!" kid became such an arrogant prick in AOTC. It just feels disjointed. I realize there are sweet kids who turn into teenage monsters but in the case of Anakin, he went from a happy slave to a miserable Jedi. You'd think he'd only be happier as a Jedi. Honestly, what did they do to him???
JPH
Sr Member
I think or Anakin's situation.I respectfully disagree both thematically and pragmatically.
Having a "past trauma" undermines the power of the dark side as a corrupting force. Sure, you can add that element but, I find it more compelling that even a stalwart hero can be seduced by darkness rather than be driven there by a festering psychological wound. Furthermore, it would make Luke's temptation to the dark side and subsequent rejection of it more significant as a testament of will where as now you could say, "Well, Luke didn't have the kind of baggage Anakin had so he was able to beat it." The past trauma angle reminds me of the "Obi-Wan was a bad teacher" narrative which again undermines the power of the dark side as well as undermines Anakin's own agency. It also didn't do Kenobi any favors.
Then there's the simple issue of character portrayal. No matter how you slice it, it feels weird seeing Darth Vader as a child. Heck, it feels weird seeing children in Star Wars in general. Anakin as a child and Anakin as an adult might as well be two different characters as they have nothing in common personality-wise. You can blame the writing and direction for that I suppose but really, when you have two different actors at extremely different stages of their lives, the character won't feel cohesive from movie to movie. Just start him off as an adult for the sake of familiarity. You can still introduce a traumatic motivation if that's your desire.
By the way, for a slave, Anakin sure seemed like a happy-go-lucky kid. I'm not sure what the Jedi did to turn him into such an angry young man. His future looked quite bright to me. I guess it was that sinister plan that ruined that caring young man
But seriously, I can't square away that the "YIPEE!!!" kid became such an arrogant prick in AOTC. It just feels disjointed. I realize there are sweet kids who turn into teenage monsters but in the case of Anakin, he went from a happy slave to a miserable Jedi. You'd think he'd only be happier as a Jedi. Honestly, what did they do to him???
As a kid, he was a slave, but he liked to tinker and worked in a junkyard where he was able to make pods and C3PO. It was stable, he had a loving mother. Watto wasn't his father, but you can tell he liked him. Watto was strict but rewarded him when he was good.
And then the jedi "freed" him.
Now Anakin has to cut all ties and stability to this world for The Force. He leaves his mom, she gets killed. He gets his first love and it appears that the jedi used her to betray him.
What was worse? Being a slave with food on the table and a steady, stable life or a life of endless duty as a jedi?
We went from slave with friends and family to slave. I think that would break most people.
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I watched not too long ago a documentary on the other boy who tried for Anakin
Night and day difference…
Wish I remembered the name of the documentary..
I respectfully disagree both thematically and pragmatically.
Having a "past trauma" undermines the power of the dark side as a corrupting force. Sure, you can add that element but, I find it more compelling that even a stalwart hero can be seduced by darkness rather than be driven there by a festering psychological wound. Furthermore, it would make Luke's temptation to the dark side and subsequent rejection of it more significant as a testament of will where as now you could say, "Well, Luke didn't have the kind of baggage Anakin had so he was able to beat it." The past trauma angle reminds me of the "Obi-Wan was a bad teacher" narrative which again undermines the power of the dark side as well as undermines Anakin's own agency. It also didn't do Kenobi any favors.
Then there's the simple issue of character portrayal. No matter how you slice it, it feels weird seeing Darth Vader as a child. Heck, it feels weird seeing children in Star Wars in general. Anakin as a child and Anakin as an adult might as well be two different characters as they have nothing in common personality-wise. You can blame the writing and direction for that I suppose but really, when you have two different actors at extremely different stages of their lives, the character won't feel cohesive from movie to movie. Just start him off as an adult for the sake of familiarity. You can still introduce a traumatic motivation if that's your desire.
By the way, for a slave, Anakin sure seemed like a happy-go-lucky kid. I'm not sure what the Jedi did to turn him into such an angry young man. His future looked quite bright to me. I guess it was that sinister plan that ruined that caring young man
But seriously, I can't square away that the "YIPEE!!!" kid became such an arrogant prick in AOTC. It just feels disjointed. I realize there are sweet kids who turn into teenage monsters but in the case of Anakin, he went from a happy slave to a miserable Jedi. You'd think he'd only be happier as a Jedi. Honestly, what did they do to him???
THIS!!!!!!!!
I liked watching a lot of the making stuff for this film. It does make you appreciate it a lot more, despite its obvious flaws.
Ron I don't see why there can't be room for both. I don't mind that Vader had always been a bit nasty, and that nastiness came to full bore when he finally broke bad. I'm ultimately not a fan of how it was conveyed but the idea I like. As I always understood it, the dark side was just metaphor. The series has always been from the Jedi's POV and the dark side was just what they called using the force for selfish (and evil) means. Succumbing to the dark side was just their way of saying "relinquish self-control and give in to your base desires." The Force doesn't corrupt, rather it can feed notions that do. After all, the means to physically manipulate reality by thought alone, of course is dangerous.
With the context of the six movies, I think the concept has gradients to it rather than being starkly binary; it's a sliding scale 'light side' and 'dark side.' Qui-Gon doesn't care about upholding Jedi ideals of absolute paragon thinking, Dooku wants to use his powers to affect change. It doesn't work in their time because the environment is too stifling. It all still frames Luke as being extremely important because he makes it work. He uses his abilities, despite not being the strongest and best, to affect positive change because he has people he loves and they love him back.
I think the unfortunate thing of the PT was that it made the Jedi Order look like the real bad guys rather than just in need of reform. I mean, that was kind of the point of the PT, the Jedi of this time have lost their way so much that they chase the best Jedi they've had in generations into the hands of the devil. They take a slave child, free him, fill head with all these ideas of chivalry and honor and do-good; only to tell him he has to dissociate from society and humanity for the rest of his life and treat him like a pariah (because he joined their order on a technicality) the whole time. It's utterly dehumanizing and it makes them all look like catty pricks. Who wouldn't cheer to see the whole Jedi community go up in flames if they're all like this?
With the context of the six movies, I think the concept has gradients to it rather than being starkly binary; it's a sliding scale 'light side' and 'dark side.' Qui-Gon doesn't care about upholding Jedi ideals of absolute paragon thinking, Dooku wants to use his powers to affect change. It doesn't work in their time because the environment is too stifling. It all still frames Luke as being extremely important because he makes it work. He uses his abilities, despite not being the strongest and best, to affect positive change because he has people he loves and they love him back.
I think the unfortunate thing of the PT was that it made the Jedi Order look like the real bad guys rather than just in need of reform. I mean, that was kind of the point of the PT, the Jedi of this time have lost their way so much that they chase the best Jedi they've had in generations into the hands of the devil. They take a slave child, free him, fill head with all these ideas of chivalry and honor and do-good; only to tell him he has to dissociate from society and humanity for the rest of his life and treat him like a pariah (because he joined their order on a technicality) the whole time. It's utterly dehumanizing and it makes them all look like catty pricks. Who wouldn't cheer to see the whole Jedi community go up in flames if they're all like this?
This is why I do not loathe these movies but am just complaining about very specific moments. Portraying the exact moments when each path choice brought the prequel characters to their ultimate OT line would be unfathomably difficult. George was using the tools he had, including other humans, to portray emotion that was readable, legible, to the common denominator viewer, the varied masses. We all interpret things differently and reading someone elses emotions and choices, when viewed first hand, is no different. The discussions could be endless over what one actor might have portrayed vs was supposed to portray while intentionally being driven to over emote (by George) in order to hand feed the audience with milestones. "This line is supposed to show the audience why Anakin begins to mistrust the Jedi" and similar. So we not only see the failures to do what George wanted but, truthfully, we could also then fall back on thinking it IS what George asked for and he just doesn't get out enough to understand modern man vs historical legendary people. He obviously thinks humor is still slapstick.
I have seen real life instances where the same horrendous tramatic event caused one person to become stronger, another to completely crumble and another to become outright intolerable. They all pointed at the same event as being life altering.
Geronimo had very very similar circumstances to Luke's where the family is killed by the troops. He pointed to that event as his main reason to forever hate the Spanish, especially the military and went full "Saw Gerrera", after. Speaking of someone in the real world who had Jedi like ability, Geronimo fits rather well.
Given the opposite, family killed by rebel forces or just randomly, Luke (as written) was intent on JOINING the empire's military and would have.
Luke's family was killed by the empire. Anakin's mother was killed by chaotic tribesmen outside the control of the empire. Anakin sees the jedi ignoring his mother's plight but sees strong government control as what could have saved her, had the empire only had a stronger presence in that sector.
I do not see this movie as a storyline failure or even a failure at all, I love the film. I believe George did what no one else could, with what he had as tools.
I have seen real life instances where the same horrendous tramatic event caused one person to become stronger, another to completely crumble and another to become outright intolerable. They all pointed at the same event as being life altering.
Geronimo had very very similar circumstances to Luke's where the family is killed by the troops. He pointed to that event as his main reason to forever hate the Spanish, especially the military and went full "Saw Gerrera", after. Speaking of someone in the real world who had Jedi like ability, Geronimo fits rather well.
Given the opposite, family killed by rebel forces or just randomly, Luke (as written) was intent on JOINING the empire's military and would have.
Luke's family was killed by the empire. Anakin's mother was killed by chaotic tribesmen outside the control of the empire. Anakin sees the jedi ignoring his mother's plight but sees strong government control as what could have saved her, had the empire only had a stronger presence in that sector.
I do not see this movie as a storyline failure or even a failure at all, I love the film. I believe George did what no one else could, with what he had as tools.
EXACTLY. I almost wrote something along these lines but didn't have the words for it; thank you!!I respectfully disagree both thematically and pragmatically.
Having a "past trauma" undermines the power of the dark side as a corrupting force. Sure, you can add that element but, I find it more compelling that even a stalwart hero can be seduced by darkness rather than be driven there by a festering psychological wound. Furthermore, it would make Luke's temptation to the dark side and subsequent rejection of it more significant as a testament of will where as now you could say, "Well, Luke didn't have the kind of baggage Anakin had so he was able to beat it." The past trauma angle reminds me of the "Obi-Wan was a bad teacher" narrative which again undermines the power of the dark side as well as undermines Anakin's own agency. It also didn't do Kenobi any favors.
Then there's the simple issue of character portrayal. No matter how you slice it, it feels weird seeing Darth Vader as a child. Heck, it feels weird seeing children in Star Wars in general. Anakin as a child and Anakin as an adult might as well be two different characters as they have nothing in common personality-wise. You can blame the writing and direction for that I suppose but really, when you have two different actors at extremely different stages of their lives, the character won't feel cohesive from movie to movie. Just start him off as an adult for the sake of familiarity. You can still introduce a traumatic motivation if that's your desire.
By the way, for a slave, Anakin sure seemed like a happy-go-lucky kid. I'm not sure what the Jedi did to turn him into such an angry young man. His future looked quite bright to me. I guess it was that sinister plan that ruined that caring young man
But seriously, I can't square away that the "YIPEE!!!" kid became such an arrogant prick in AOTC. It just feels disjointed. I realize there are sweet kids who turn into teenage monsters but in the case of Anakin, he went from a happy slave to a miserable Jedi. You'd think he'd only be happier as a Jedi. Honestly, what did they do to him???
The one thing I will say is that I think Anakin should have been a bit older when he fell to the Dark Side, and well into his 50's when Luke saved him.
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I remember all the toy stores and Walmarts looking like this..
Exactly it!!
.... and realizing that the Special Editions were only the 20 year mark for the first original film thats now creeping up on 50 years......
CopperRevan
Master Member
Totally agree!!I respectfully disagree both thematically and pragmatically.
Having a "past trauma" undermines the power of the dark side as a corrupting force. Sure, you can add that element but, I find it more compelling that even a stalwart hero can be seduced by darkness rather than be driven there by a festering psychological wound. Furthermore, it would make Luke's temptation to the dark side and subsequent rejection of it more significant as a testament of will where as now you could say, "Well, Luke didn't have the kind of baggage Anakin had so he was able to beat it." The past trauma angle reminds me of the "Obi-Wan was a bad teacher" narrative which again undermines the power of the dark side as well as undermines Anakin's own agency. It also didn't do Kenobi any favors.
Then there's the simple issue of character portrayal. No matter how you slice it, it feels weird seeing Darth Vader as a child. Heck, it feels weird seeing children in Star Wars in general. Anakin as a child and Anakin as an adult might as well be two different characters as they have nothing in common personality-wise. You can blame the writing and direction for that I suppose but really, when you have two different actors at extremely different stages of their lives, the character won't feel cohesive from movie to movie. Just start him off as an adult for the sake of familiarity. You can still introduce a traumatic motivation if that's your desire.
By the way, for a slave, Anakin sure seemed like a happy-go-lucky kid. I'm not sure what the Jedi did to turn him into such an angry young man. His future looked quite bright to me. I guess it was that sinister plan that ruined that caring young man
But seriously, I can't square away that the "YIPEE!!!" kid became such an arrogant prick in AOTC. It just feels disjointed. I realize there are sweet kids who turn into teenage monsters but in the case of Anakin, he went from a happy slave to a miserable Jedi. You'd think he'd only be happier as a Jedi. Honestly, what did they do to him???
What did they do to him?
They didn't grant him the rank of Master...so he threw a tantrum and became Darth Vader...as we hear him rebel to the sound of this song in the back ground...lol
Anakin's wound -
If the films don't show us any character/experience factors that help lean him towards the dark side, then he is not sympathetic as a character. He had every reason to stay good but he turned evil because he's just a bad guy. It seems pointless/wrong for him to be redeemed several movies later.
You could argue that the Dark Side is so powerful it can corrupt anyone. But then why didn't it get Luke? Was he just luckier than his father? Does the Dark Side have ups & downs like solar flares?
If Anakin's character flaws were not a pivotal factor in turning him dark then his story is not really a human tragedy. It's a disaster movie. He might as well have gotten infected with a 'Dark Side' virus like something out of a zombie movie. At that point these characters are just reacting to stuff falling out of the sky. Their traits & choices are not really shaping outcomes.
If the films don't show us any character/experience factors that help lean him towards the dark side, then he is not sympathetic as a character. He had every reason to stay good but he turned evil because he's just a bad guy. It seems pointless/wrong for him to be redeemed several movies later.
You could argue that the Dark Side is so powerful it can corrupt anyone. But then why didn't it get Luke? Was he just luckier than his father? Does the Dark Side have ups & downs like solar flares?
If Anakin's character flaws were not a pivotal factor in turning him dark then his story is not really a human tragedy. It's a disaster movie. He might as well have gotten infected with a 'Dark Side' virus like something out of a zombie movie. At that point these characters are just reacting to stuff falling out of the sky. Their traits & choices are not really shaping outcomes.
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I could totally let this play in the background for a hour. Maybe have some flybys with the doppler effect as well.
Just because it can corrupt anyone does not mean it will; the thing is that anyone who is not careful and allows themselves to dabble with evil or does not take it seriously (scoffing at warnings, ignoring clear signals, etc.) can find themselves falling into what they thought they were "too good for".
But some do heed the warnings and take it seriously. Luke is an example in this case: he was headstrong and a bit cocky like his father, but unlike him, he took the danger seriously enough in time to escape it (albeit not without cost). He realized the path he was about to take and rather than follow his father, let himself fall to what he thought would be his death. It did turn out that he would live, but he decided that Vader's way was not compelling enough to follow.
You don't need to know someone's past to know their character; you simply need to watch what they do over time, and see who they are as they make choices and treat others. We do this everyday with people we meet, become friends will, even fall in love with. Eventually we may find out about their lives, but we don't need an entire biography to see their character
Lastly: our character defines how we will react in any given situation, Dark Side or "disaster movie". And events like disasters leave their marks on people in very tangible ways, both physical as well as emotional. We can end up changing and even becoming a different person due to events, seeing things through "a different lens" than we used when we started. I prefer to see Anakin in that light; a good Jedi who ventured a little too close to the Dark Side, events went sideways and he was seduced slowly, whittling away at his defenses and lulling him into a false sense of "being in control", until it overtook him and snuffed out the rich, vibrant man he once was.
THAT is more of a tragedy in my book; the trainwreck that others around him would have watched slowly happening, yet did not/ could not stop.
