The Official Star Wars Question Thread

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Bigdaddy

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Oh that's so cool. I love concept art! Obi-Wan has such a high fantasy look about him. Like he'd fit right in with Jackson's LOTR films.

Going back to Luke in black. Mark had a disagreement with George with how Luke was being written. And as I understand it, it started when Mark was having his costume fit. Mark noticed that he was wearing black, and had a glove, and a dark cloak. So he asked George what was up. And apparently George told him, that it was meant to show that Luke was struggling with the Dark Side.

Now I don't think there's a hard and fast rule that says 'black/dark clothes = bad or evil'.(Augustinian monks wear black habits, they're not evil, and we know that Jedi garb was partially inspired by monks habits) We see plenty of Jedi wearing dark shades of brown and gray. And Barris Offee wears black (though she might be a bad example considering she bombed the Jedi temple and framed Ahsoka).

But with that said, symbolism is a big thing in Star Wars. So when we see Luke's clothing go from light colors, to mid tones, to black. And those colors follow his arc through the story. I'd be inclined to think that there's something else going on. Plus we see similar things with Anakin and Rey.
Can you quote a source for the test fit conversation you're referencing? I watched the video posted and it sure sounded like George saying that the black was more Jedi like.
 

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Joek3rr

Sr Member
Can you quote a source for the test fit conversation you're referencing? I watched the video posted and it sure sounded like George saying that the black was more Jedi like.

I hate to say this. But I don't remember exactly. I seem to recall it was an interview with Mark, that was posted on YouTube, but alas it was before I had a YouYube account, and so I couldn't save for later reference.

However, Mark talked about a bit in 2018 when he was asked about his disagreement with Rian.

Hamill admitted that he had "lots of really terrible ideas" for Episode VIII, at which point he shifted the question with an interesting tidbit: he had a similar beef with George Lucas and Return of the Jedi's plot before that began filming. "I read [the script for] Jedi and thought, 'Wait a sec! I thought I was heading toward the struggle of heading to the Dark Side. I'm in black. I have a glove. I see a trend here.'"

and the source for that Mark Hamill on Skywalker disagreements, fear of starring in a new Star Wars film
 

Bigdaddy

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I hate to say this. But I don't remember exactly. I seem to recall it was an interview with Mark, that was posted on YouTube, but alas it was before I had a YouYube account, and so I couldn't save for later reference.

However, Mark talked about a bit in 2018 when he was asked about his disagreement with Rian.

Hamill admitted that he had "lots of really terrible ideas" for Episode VIII, at which point he shifted the question with an interesting tidbit: he had a similar beef with George Lucas and Return of the Jedi's plot before that began filming. "I read [the script for] Jedi and thought, 'Wait a sec! I thought I was heading toward the struggle of heading to the Dark Side. I'm in black. I have a glove. I see a trend here.'"

and the source for that Mark Hamill on Skywalker disagreements, fear of starring in a new Star Wars film
Okay, so you're referring to Mark reminiscing about his impression 36 yrs later rather than video footage of George talking about Luke struggling with the darkside at the test fitting. Thanks, just wanted to be clear.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Okay, so you're referring to Mark reminiscing about his impression 36 yrs later rather than video footage of George talking about Luke struggling with the darkside at the test fitting. Thanks, just wanted to be clear.

I wish I could remember this video. I recall Mark quoting George. I want to say it might have been from one of the Celebrations. But then again, I might be imagining this, all. I've probably watched 50 or more videos with different interviews and such. It all gets kinda mashed together in my head, lol.
 

patrickivan

Sr Member
I have a question. Who the hell is this mike Zeroh (bad word that kinda sounds like the French word: droite), that is flooding every feed I go to with his videos? I NEVER go to his sites. I never read his stuff out side of ONE article on a public computer (and it was nonsense).

I heard it's all just made up nonsense, and it HAS to be since he seems to pump this stuff out like water from a perpetual flooding basement.

NO ONE can have the kind of insight he claims to have. Am I over reacting? That's rhetorical. I know I'm overreacting LOL.
 

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Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
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Mark had a disagreement with George with how Luke was being written. And as I understand it, it started when Mark was having his costume fit. Mark noticed that he was wearing black, and had a glove, and a dark cloak. So he asked George what was up. And apparently George told him, that it was meant to show that Luke was struggling with the Dark Side.

Parsing through what I've been able to of the after-the-fact interviews and recollections -- from when the movie came out to today -- Mark's concerns were when he read the script and saw his own costume concept art. Stuff like this:

31737683657_b59880ff78_o.png


And Barris Offee wears black (though she might be a bad example considering she bombed the Jedi temple and framed Ahsoka).

Enh. Retcon. She wasn't intended to "go bad" when she was added as a background character in AOTC. And I'm not particularly thrilled with that take on why the character wasn't back in ROTS (even Luminara's screen time was all but eradicated for the latter). So the black there is, again, not deliberate foreshadowing.

But with that said, symbolism is a big thing in Star Wars. So when we see Luke's clothing go from light colors, to mid tones, to black. And those colors follow his arc through the story. I'd be inclined to think that there's something else going on. Plus we see similar things with Anakin and Rey.

Yes, and. He wanted to present himself to Jabba as a Jedi Knight. He scavenged stuff from Obi-Wan's home to make his lightsaber. And it's Tatooine. Since they all dress like that there, he could easily have found something approximating Old Ben's robes if that's what Jedi look like. Anakin's a whole kettle of fish I won't get into again. But in general I have seen a lot of ball-dropping from the mid-'90s on. Much on George's hands.

I don't think thats what George said though. He says it's similar to the one Mark wore in the first film, (which it isn't) He then says, "it's just a black version, that's a little more Jedi like". Granted I'm listening to this on my phone, so I might not be hearing correctly. But I believe George is referring to the additions of the tabard and obi. Something that had only been worn by Alec Guinness up to that point.

Except, when you can watch it on a bigger screen, that's the post-Vader-capture version of the costume. No tabard or sash, placket hanging open showing the light facing. George is addressing what Mark is wearing there -- black tunic, fitted pants, and knee boots.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Parsing through what I've been able to of the after-the-fact interviews and recollections -- from when the movie came out to today -- Mark's concerns were when he read the script and saw his own costume concept art. Stuff like this:

View attachment 975366



Enh. Retcon. She wasn't intended to "go bad" when she was added as a background character in AOTC. And I'm not particularly thrilled with that take on why the character wasn't back in ROTS (even Luminara's screen time was all but eradicated for the latter). So the black there is, again, not deliberate foreshadowing.



Yes, and. He wanted to present himself to Jabba as a Jedi Knight. He scavenged stuff from Obi-Wan's home to make his lightsaber. And it's Tatooine. Since they all dress like that there, he could easily have found something approximating Old Ben's robes if that's what Jedi look like. Anakin's a whole kettle of fish I won't get into again. But in general I have seen a lot of ball-dropping from the mid-'90s on. Much on George's hands.



Except, when you can watch it on a bigger screen, that's the post-Vader-capture version of the costume. No tabard or sash, placket hanging open showing the light facing. George is addressing what Mark is wearing there -- black tunic, fitted pants, and knee boots.

Is he wearing just the tunic, pants and boots? I couldn't tell for sure. It looks like he was looking down at some concept art spread on the floor.

And yes while Tatooine wear is robes and such, like what Owen wears. But the obi (sash) and tabard are unique to to Obi-Wan and Luke.

And considering the color. I would agree with that it was meant to make Luke look Jedi like. Except Obi-Wan and Yoda both wear earthen tones. And since part of the plot of ROTJ revolves around Luke's struggle with the Dark Side. I'd say his dark clothes are meant to represent his condition. And after his rejection of the Dark Side, his tunic falls open to reveal a light color beneath.

And George understands how every little element(costume, hair, lighting, color, sounds, music etc) of a film should help tells the story. A person's clothes(color, quality, cut and style) and hair tell volumes about a person.
 

DaddyfromNaboo

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I don’t know if your being sarcastic or not lol but I going to post what I know so far
So I forgot the name of the trails, but the padawans face off against one another in a dueling competition

This is where Jedi knights and masters watched and if they like or see potential in a certain padawan they can ask the council for permission to train them

The left over padawans who are not picked are enlisted in other programs for the republic

Some study to be navigators on ships. Some become cooks in the Jedi temple (if my memory serves me right even though they weren’t picked by a Jedi they stay in the temple the rest of their life’s) some become janitors of the temple, or even librarians

This is all the now canon explanations, though they didn’t go into detail about rejected padawans making clothes, if ...

Now if THAT really is canon it depresses me even more than the introduction of midichlorians.
 

Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Now if THAT really is canon it depresses me even more than the introduction of midichlorians.
EU. I don't know how much of that, if any, has made it into the new canon. But it was more complex than that. It was more a matter of younglings getting sorted according to aptitude before they were apprenticed as padawans, and went to the appropriate disciplines for their personalities. Healing, botany, academics, etc. And, occasionally, padawans or knights would "wash out" and discover they were better suited for other duties.
 

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Joek3rr

Sr Member
Bwahahahaha, oh gosh is it too early to award the “best joke of 2019” title?

You may laugh. But it's true. George understands that all the little things that some may think to be inconsequential, are very important. In particular, the way a things look. George is such a visual director. He can tell more story with just the way things look, then he can with dialogue and performances. He's so good with this, I bet, you could tell the whole story of first 6 films, using only a handful of pictures from each.

This is not to say that he is without his faults. By is own admission he's not a good writer of dialogue or a director of actors. But he knows what makes a good story, (comes from his love of Joseph Campbell's mono-myth), he knows that each individual element that makes up a motion picture, should be able to convey the story on it's own.
 

sztriki

Sr Member
You may laugh. But it's true. George understands that all the little things that some may think to be inconsequential, are very important. In particular, the way a things look. George is such a visual director. He can tell more story with just the way things look, then he can with dialogue and performances. He's so good with this, I bet, you could tell the whole story of first 6 films, using only a handful of pictures from each.

This is not to say that he is without his faults. By is own admission he's not a good writer of dialogue or a director of actors. But he knows what makes a good story, (comes from his love of Joseph Campbell's mono-myth), he knows that each individual element that makes up a motion picture, should be able to convey the story on it's own.
Sure mate. I know better than starting an argument when you’re mind is set on something anyway.
 

Halliwax

Legendary Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I have a question. Who the hell is this mike Zeroh (bad word that kinda sounds like the French word: droite), that is flooding every feed I go to with his videos? I NEVER go to his sites. I never read his stuff out side of ONE article on a public computer (and it was nonsense).

I heard it's all just made up nonsense, and it HAS to be since he seems to pump this stuff out like water from a perpetual flooding basement.

NO ONE can have the kind of insight he claims to have. Am I over reacting? That's rhetorical. I know I'm overreacting LOL.

Heeeeehhh Mike zeroh.......

He makes videos of every single rumor out there.. claims each one is a reliable source, and then contradicts himself and every next video...

He was a very small channel until rian Johnson on social media personally attacked him

His channel then got much more attention and still gets way more attention then it should..

I’m a huge fan of hellogreedo, he does some great skits of this guy
 

Inquisitor Peregrinus

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
And yes while Tatooine wear is robes and such, like what Owen wears. But the obi (sash) and tabard are unique to to Obi-Wan and Luke.

And considering the color. I would agree with that it was meant to make Luke look Jedi like. Except Obi-Wan and Yoda both wear earthen tones.

Touching back on this... Ben and Yoda were also supposed to be in hiding, at a time when being a Jedi was a great way to get very dead very fast. Before the PT screwed the narrative up beyond all belief with showing us Yoda, as well as Anakin's fall (complete with costume foreshadowing), we were supposed to discover that was Yoda the same time Luke did. Wouldn't have worked if what he was wearing identified him as a Jedi.

As for Ben's sleeveless kimono and sash, I can rationalize with the best of 'em. Kept those pieces from his outfit and used a color-remover on them? Bleached out over years in the desert? When scrounging local garments, just went with what felt comfortable and familiar? Combination of all of that?

And since part of the plot of ROTJ revolves around Luke's struggle with the Dark Side. I'd say his dark clothes are meant to represent his condition. And after his rejection of the Dark Side, his tunic falls open to reveal a light color beneath.

And George understands how every little element(costume, hair, lighting, color, sounds, music etc) of a film should help tells the story. A person's clothes(color, quality, cut and style) and hair tell volumes about a person.

He also goes with multiple layers of meaning -- sometimes deliberate, sometimes instinctive. And sometimes he is utterly oblivious to implicit meaning in what he goes with. It really is a crap-shoot. The lightsabers were originally all silver-white. During post-production, he had ILM give Ben's and Vader's their blue and red tints, respectively, so it was easier to tell them apart in the duel. And Vader wears black partly because he's the bad guy, but also because he's a Jedi ("You, my friend, are the last of their religion.")...

So yeah, Luke's black outfit was likely "more Jedi like" as Lucas said, as well as being indicative of his journey (Jedi sleeveless kimono -- cut short, annoyingly, to facilitate Mark's stunts -- and sash, when he was being a Jedi Knight; ditching it for the camo poncho when he was being a Rebel Commando; stripped to the basic black ensemble when he turned himself in to Vader; and "the light inside showing through" during his fight with Vader when the placket falls open).
 

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batguy

Sr Member
I've never understood all the fuss about the prequel Jedis wearing brown robes.

Why all the fears about Obi-Wan or Yoda getting discovered? As if nobody else would ever wear brown robes besides Jedis? Did the Empire have investigators running around the galaxy for decades, checking out every report of a person wearing brown robes? Half the planet of Tatooine was wearing variations of brown baggy clothes in ANH. Luke's outfit wasn't far off either, just different color & lengths.

Obi-Wan's Tatooine outfit is pretty unusual & distinctive in our world. But I see no reason to think it would draw a second glance in the SW world.

If anything was gonna get Obi-Wan discovered during his exile, it would be the lightsaber. He still didn't hesitate to whip it out in Mos Eisley. Probably because in a whole galaxy full of Jedis and other wild weapons, that's not especially weird either. Eccentric, but nothing more. Don't tell me that no lightsaber ever fell into the hands of a non-Jedi. And don't tell me that nobody else in that galaxy ever built a weapon that looked similar.

-------------

As for Luke's dark colors in ROTJ, I'm sure it was pure filmmaking decisions. Luke isn't the only character with colors reflecting their moral tones in the OT.

Look at ANH. Luke & Leia are pure/good and they wear white. Darth Vader is bad and he wears black. The Empire's officers wear dark gray. Han Solo is rough around the edges with a good heart, and he wears dark outer colors with an off-white shirt underneath. It's all right in our faces.

Obi-Wan is wearing earth-colored robes with a slightly lighter shade under the top layer. Again, it basically fits his mojo.

Lucas is a filmmaker first and foremost. Many other things he says are just explanations dreamed up after the fact.
 

Treadwell

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
It's just that when SW was first shot, Ben's wardrobe wasn't "Jedi robes". It was just like what a lot of people were wearing on Tatooine (Owen, people in Mos Eisley...). That's what makes it kind of weird to see them in the prequels (and on ESB Yoda and the ROTJ Anakin Force Ghost, for that matter).
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
John Mollo himself said he never intended Ben Kenobi's robes to be the standard issue typeology for the Jedi but the garb of a desert hermit. Long before the Prequels, I wondered if the Jedi wore more opulent clothing, uniforms or armor or some combination of the two. The robes Ben wore in ANH would be like the Star Wars equivalent of sack cloth which was traditionally worn by people in ancient times to express sorrow or remorse. Depending on the version you read in the Arthurian legends, Lancelot wore rags and lived like a beggar in the years after betraying Arthur with Gweneviere. Obi-Wan was almost like a fallen knight paying pennance for failing to instruct Anakin well enough. It evokes a medieval idea of duty and honor and by wearing the humble clothes of a "peasant" it fits thematically because if Ben laid aside his ornate Jedi garb for the rags of a nobody, then it would subconsciously express his humility. Though I am reading way too much into this so it's not like it's set in stone, but with that said there is mythological and religious precedent.
 

Ron

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
John Mollo himself said he never intended Ben Kenobi's robes to be the standard issue typeology for the Jedi but the garb of a desert hermit. Long before the Prequels, I wondered if the Jedi wore more opulent clothing, uniforms or armor or some combination of the two. The robes Ben wore in ANH would be like the Star Wars equivalent of sack cloth which was traditionally worn by people in ancient times to express sorrow or remorse. Depending on the version you read in the Arthurian legends, Lancelot wore rags and lived like a beggar in the years after betraying Arthur with Gweneviere. Obi-Wan was almost like a fallen knight paying pennance for failing to instruct Anakin well enough. It evokes a medieval idea of duty and honor and by wearing the humble clothes of a "peasant" it fits thematically because if Ben laid aside his ornate Jedi garb for the rags of a nobody, then it would subconsciously express his humility. Though I am reading way too much into this so it's not like it's set in stone, but with that said there is mythological and religious precedent.
You've articulated it perfectly! I believe you can apply similar reasoning as to why Yoda and Anakin are dressed the same as Obi-Wan in regard to an old warrior now embracing a humble existence.
 

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