The Official Boycott Star Wars Bluray thread

Ethically, I think a "work for hire" is fairly tricky and fact-specific because it's, by nature, a collaborative effort.

I dunno; what with film being a commercial art, I'm not sure I see the problem with artists contracting their services to a rights-holder. Everyone knows what they're doing, so I really don't see the ethical issue. John Williams isn't going to produce a score absent the film produced in the first place. Does Harrison Ford ethically own his performance? He's an artist, too. :)
 
Ok , Ill try to understand the Lucas doesnt own the rights argument.

Are you against all changes done since the release? Should a filmmaker be able to clean up his film before a rerelease? Can he or she delete misstakes like microphones showing? If yes, who decides which ones?

There were different cinema versions with different sounds when Star Wars was first released. Would they all be considered property of the public?

Basically what I ask is who, if not Lucas, decides on changes in his films?

Well, that's the tricky part, innit?

I'm not sure there's an easy answer to your questions, either. This is also where the philosophical/ethical side of things breaks down, and you have to start getting down to practical decisionmaking, usually with the law getting involved somehow to determine who has final rights.

In American copyright law, if memory serves, a true collaborative work where both authors are treated as equal copyright holders gives both authors the FULL rights to the material to do with as they please. In other words, if we write a book together and are truly co-owners of the copyright, you have the right to license the reproduction of that work, as do I. Neither one of us trumps the other. With a work for hire, legally speaking, the person doing the hiring (IE: Lucas) gets the rights and the person who's been hired (IE: Williams or McQuarrie) owns nothing, regardless of the actual creative contribution by the person doing the hiring.

Wanna know why Todd McFarlane can make a bunch of toys of Spawn characters, but never makes toys for his version of Spider-Man? Right. Because Marvel owns Spider-Man, and owns all the work McFarlane did during his run on Spider-Man. Doesn't matter how little the corporate investors had to do with his designs, the storylines, etc. The corporation owns the rights to all of that (legally).


My point about the ethics being tricky gets to the underlying argument about who the author is. For ethical purposes, I think a true collaborative effort is indistinguishable from a "work for hire" arrangement, regardless of whether there's an employment/independent contractor relationship between the parties. Both people -- the employer and the employee -- are (potentially, anyway) authors of the work.

So who has the rights to muck with it? I dunno, honestly. It's a tough question. You could argue that they all have equal rights, which would mean that (ethically) McQuarrie could rerelease his own version of Star Wars, as could Williams, as could Lucas, as could any number of people. Or you could say "that's really stupid" and argue that only one of them should be able to do it -- the person who made it all possible or perhaps the "vision behind the vision," namely Lucas himself.

I also think, however, that it's not so easy as, for example, 2011 Lucas would have us believe, were he to argue that "The artist" has the sole right. Oh really? Well, which artist? When you're dealing with a film or some other collaborative work, which artist's rights trump the other artists involved in the project? Or does everyone have equal rights?

Or maybe the artist ISN'T paramount. Maybe the artist is just one part of the equation, and the audience's experience comes into play as well. After all, isn't art a shared experience between artist and audience? Doesn't the audience's interpretation and experience help MAKE the art and give it meaning? These aren't easy questions, certainly not at a philosophical level, so glib answers like "They're MY stories" don't (for me, anyway) resolve the issue at least on an ethical/moral level.


Maybe a better way to think about it is that the artist is the best guardian of the shared experience between artist and audience, but as such has a duty to respect the experience of the audience itself -- that experience being essential to the nature of art. When you have multiple artists involved, perhaps those multiple artists should equally respect each others' collaborative efforts and not really muck about with their collective work without some form of internal agreement amongst themselves.

So, if you've got a 35mm sound edit, a 70mm sound edit, a 16mm sound edit, etc., those might be fine, assuming that the collective group of artists who made the film have signed off on it.


Another way to think about it is a question on when a change fundamentally alters the underlying nature of the work or the "meaning" of the work. This is where, for example, a digital erasing of a boom mic shadow wouldn't be objectionable, but Greedo shooting first would be. That, of course, opens PLENTY of additional changes to debate in a grey area (IE: are Vader's new "NOOOOOOOO"s a change to the underlying "meaning" of the work? How about putting rocks in front of R2? What about the continual messing with Obi-Wan's dragon scream?), but it at least provides some sense of guidance.


Anyway, like I said, these aren't easy issues. It's never easy when you start getting into these kinds of ethical debates on something as subjective and complicated as art. I guess my own view is that sort of hybrid of "artist as caretaker for the public." Which I suppose is why I have the attitude of "I don't care what changes he makes, as long as he releases some kind of largely untouched archival version that at least is high enough resolution to not look pixelated or blurry on an HDTV."
 
I picked up the digitally remastered original trilogy on VHS back in 1997, and I have the 3 prequels on DVD. They all look cool on my home theatre screen. What else could I want ? It hasn't even crossed my mind to get the orignal trilogy on DVD yet.
 
I honestly didn't know about that. I was just using the basic concept of a guy who was doing "works for hire" then went off and started creating his own stuff to hang on to the rights. The Angela issue actually sort of goes to the heart of the "Work for hire" point I was making -- if it's a "work for hire" the person doing the hiring owns it. Therefore, him claiming that Angela was a "work for hire" by Gaiman (regardless of the legitimacy of that claim) would give him full ownership and completely strip Gaiman of all legal rights to the property.

The ethical questions on the use of the character, though, remain. But then, as I do with plenty of other issues, I treat legal questions as separate from morality/ethical questions. Sometimes there's overlap, but not necessarily.
 
In Sweden at least, those buildings are marked as historical by experts, just not random people at the internet giving themself the right to judge. If you decided to paint your house, you are intitled, and would not like people telling you what to do, or even better saying they want to hurt you for it?


The difference is that when you decorate/paint/furnish/etc. your house, you don't do it for the purpose of pleasing the public, whereas movies are made expressly to please and involve the public. Once they're involved with it to the point that many fans of SW have become involved, to then change some pretty fundamental aspects of the story, not just a stray matte line or an actor's exposed arm here and there, is pretty bad practice.
 
Well, that's the tricky part, innit?

I'm not sure there's an easy answer to your questions, either. This is also where the philosophical/ethical side of things breaks down, and you have to start getting down to practical decisionmaking, usually with the law getting involved somehow to determine who has final rights.

In American copyright law, if memory serves, a true collaborative work where both authors are treated as equal copyright holders gives both authors the FULL rights to the material to do with as they please. In other words, if we write a book together and are truly co-owners of the copyright, you have the right to license the reproduction of that work, as do I. Neither one of us trumps the other. With a work for hire, legally speaking, the person doing the hiring (IE: Lucas) gets the rights and the person who's been hired (IE: Williams or McQuarrie) owns nothing, regardless of the actual creative contribution by the person doing the hiring.

Wanna know why Todd McFarlane can make a bunch of toys of Spawn characters, but never makes toys for his version of Spider-Man? Right. Because Marvel owns Spider-Man, and owns all the work McFarlane did during his run on Spider-Man. Doesn't matter how little the corporate investors had to do with his designs, the storylines, etc. The corporation owns the rights to all of that (legally).


My point about the ethics being tricky gets to the underlying argument about who the author is. For ethical purposes, I think a true collaborative effort is indistinguishable from a "work for hire" arrangement, regardless of whether there's an employment/independent contractor relationship between the parties. Both people -- the employer and the employee -- are (potentially, anyway) authors of the work.

So who has the rights to muck with it? I dunno, honestly. It's a tough question. You could argue that they all have equal rights, which would mean that (ethically) McQuarrie could rerelease his own version of Star Wars, as could Williams, as could Lucas, as could any number of people. Or you could say "that's really stupid" and argue that only one of them should be able to do it -- the person who made it all possible or perhaps the "vision behind the vision," namely Lucas himself.

I also think, however, that it's not so easy as, for example, 2011 Lucas would have us believe, were he to argue that "The artist" has the sole right. Oh really? Well, which artist? When you're dealing with a film or some other collaborative work, which artist's rights trump the other artists involved in the project? Or does everyone have equal rights?

Or maybe the artist ISN'T paramount. Maybe the artist is just one part of the equation, and the audience's experience comes into play as well. After all, isn't art a shared experience between artist and audience? Doesn't the audience's interpretation and experience help MAKE the art and give it meaning? These aren't easy questions, certainly not at a philosophical level, so glib answers like "They're MY stories" don't (for me, anyway) resolve the issue at least on an ethical/moral level.


Maybe a better way to think about it is that the artist is the best guardian of the shared experience between artist and audience, but as such has a duty to respect the experience of the audience itself -- that experience being essential to the nature of art. When you have multiple artists involved, perhaps those multiple artists should equally respect each others' collaborative efforts and not really muck about with their collective work without some form of internal agreement amongst themselves.

So, if you've got a 35mm sound edit, a 70mm sound edit, a 16mm sound edit, etc., those might be fine, assuming that the collective group of artists who made the film have signed off on it.


Another way to think about it is a question on when a change fundamentally alters the underlying nature of the work or the "meaning" of the work. This is where, for example, a digital erasing of a boom mic shadow wouldn't be objectionable, but Greedo shooting first would be. That, of course, opens PLENTY of additional changes to debate in a grey area (IE: are Vader's new "NOOOOOOOO"s a change to the underlying "meaning" of the work? How about putting rocks in front of R2? What about the continual messing with Obi-Wan's dragon scream?), but it at least provides some sense of guidance.


Anyway, like I said, these aren't easy issues. It's never easy when you start getting into these kinds of ethical debates on something as subjective and complicated as art. I guess my own view is that sort of hybrid of "artist as caretaker for the public." Which I suppose is why I have the attitude of "I don't care what changes he makes, as long as he releases some kind of largely untouched archival version that at least is high enough resolution to not look pixelated or blurry on an HDTV."

I can see big problems if every hired artist working on a film should have a say, eventhough its a nice thought in theory. Seems like pretty much everyone working on SW thought it was a weird film that would flop. Lucas didnt and he was right. If Lucas would listen to everyone, there would be no SW.

Even if I wouldnt have done the changes Lucas have, I respect Lucas rights to do them. Im positive that I want filmmakers making films they like, and that care less what other people think.

The problem I see in much of todays culture is streamlined products only aimed to please as many as possible. And making some kind of cultural censorship as it seems many wants here is the wrong way IMO. I dont want cowards making films, I want people doing what they feel is right.
 
The difference is that when you decorate/paint/furnish/etc. your house, you don't do it for the purpose of pleasing the public, whereas movies are made expressly to please and involve the public. Once they're involved with it to the point that many fans of SW have become involved, to then change some pretty fundamental aspects of the story, not just a stray matte line or an actor's exposed arm here and there, is pretty bad practice.

IMO the greatest film makers dont do it to please the public, they want to create art. What fundamnetal story changes do you mean?
 
So are we moving from films being like houses to the Oscar jury deciding which films arent allowed to be tinkered with? :confused

We can move to whatever point you wish to.
I thought your last point was that some official group had to decide what was significant enough to preserve, and a bunch of intenet hacks were not that group. Threrfore I attempted to provide you with alternative "groups to decide"

No?
 
Last edited:
I agree that Lucas has the right to make his changes. However, to completely withdraw the original, and leave in its place a film made with technologies spanning a gap of 20, 30, 40 years, means he's well on the road to forfeiting the film's place in history. The presence of modern but commonplace technologies (cgi was commonplace in '97, motion-control in '77 was revolutionary) makes the director's original historical achievement harder to discern. Just as long as Lucas understands this. (Perhaps he does, and is just ego-less when it comes to historical achievement. Which would be a virtue, I suppose, but it's very bizarre....)

If we grant Lucas his changes and his claim that only the latest edition is Star Wars, then the question "in what year was Star Wars released?" becomes very problematic. Lucas' revisionism simply compels us to say the year of release is not 1977 but 2011, that earlier releases were mere works-in-progress. Thus he takes the film outside history, and keeps it outside with each new revision.
 
Last edited:
I agree that Lucas has the right to make his changes. However, to completely withdraw the original, and leave in its place a film made with technologies spanning a gap of 20, 30, 40 years, means he's well on the road to forfeiting the film's place in history. The director's historical achievement becomes muddied and harder to discern. Just as long as Lucas understands this.

Copy that!

It's apt that you choose technologies for your objection.
What exactly did it win Oscars for again?
What was the thing about the film that his peers thought worthy of note..
 
We can move to whatever point you wish to.
I thought your last point was that some official group had to decide what was significant enough to preserve, and a bunch of intenet hacks were not that group. Threrfore I attempted to provide you with alternative "groups to decide"

No?

Well yeah, I ment to point out the problems with the comparing of historical houses with films. The problem is that a expert group would be needed and that is be a really bad idea. Do you mean it would work if some jury decided what artists were allowed to do with their films?
 
I agree that Lucas has the right to make his changes. However, to completely withdraw the original, and leave in its place a film made with technologies spanning a gap of 20, 30, 40 years, means he's well on the road to forfeiting the film's place in history. The presence of modern but commonplace (cgi was commonplace in '97, motion-control in '77 was revolutionary) technologies in the film makes the director's original historical achievement harder to discern. Just as long as Lucas understands this. (Perhaps he does, and is just ego-less when it comes to historical achievement. Which would be a virtue, I suppose, but it's very bizarre....)
However, it's only a very, very small percent of the audience that sees it this way.

Yes, there's some outcry over it right now... but, in the long run most folks will simply see this as 'Star Wars.' Just as the SE's did - there are those of us that recognize the differences and changes, but most of the public doesn't.
 
Well yeah, I ment to point out the problems with the comparing of historical houses with films. The problem is that a expert group would be needed and that is be a really bad idea. Do you mean it would work if some jury decided what artists were allowed to do with their films?

No. not at all.

For the sake of this argument, I'm putting forward the idea that some objects ( say a film or budda statue or flag for example ) become so significant to a culture that the ownership of that object is transferred.
 
IMO the greatest film makers dont do it to please the public, they want to create art. What fundamnetal story changes do you mean?

You are right; there is the desire of the artist to satisfy him/herself, their artistic impulse if you will. And of course, in the modern world anyway, the desire to make money from the pursuit. But neither of those pursuits are really fulfilled without engaging and involving the public, who in turn become very instrumental in the success or failure of the given endeavor. If GL, for instance, hadn't made a good deal of money on SW, it's a fairly foregone conclusion that none of the rest of them would have ever been made. I'm pretty certain that he wouldn't have spent hundreds of millions of dollars just to satisfy his urge to create...

As to fundamental changes... to my mind the Han/Greedo changeover was pretty fundamental. It changed the nature of Han as a character to one that was more pc. This wasn't a revision necessitated because of a lack of technology in the mid '70's; it was purely whim and unneeded. Darth's new "NOOOOOO" in ROTJ may not be as scene/context altering as Han/Greedo, but it definitely changes the feel of a scene where no change was needed. Again, whimsical and unnecessary.
 
All of these dialogue changes and addition CGI scenes in the Trilogy, but I bet the snowspeeder cockpits are still transparent and Luke's lightsaber doesn't turn off as he runs out of the wampa cave.

If you're going to "fix" stuff, fix the stuff that needs fixing.

:crossarms:
 
However, it's only a very, very small percent of the audience that sees it this way.

Yes, there's some outcry over it right now... but, in the long run most folks will simply see this as 'Star Wars.' Just as the SE's did - there are those of us that recognize the differences and changes, but most of the public doesn't.

Of course. They're simply not interested in such issues, in the same way that most people have no clue who built the Acropolis or when or why it's important. But Pericles' achievement is logged and understood by historians. Lucas is making it increasingly difficult for film historians to log his achievement. The fact that the historical aspect has no interest for the masses is irrelevant, since it's an issue for historians of film.
 
Back
Top