the never-ending "let's improve star wars thread"

[astroboy]

I love arguing over star wars.

I'm gonna start this off with suggestions for improving Jedi.

Two major things:

1. Jabba doesn't live on taptooine. He lives in a space station at the centre of densely dangerous space (think "reaver space" from serenity. Or Vger. Or the walled city of kowloon) not only would that be a cooler place to infiltrate, it would solve a lot of the problems of the prequels

2. There is not death star 2. Not every goal has to be about destroying a big weapon. They've already done that. Instead, the rebels will be destroying the empire slave network. This battle will centre around the wookie home world.

If there was ONE thing I would change about ESB it's this:

I would add this line said by han: "Bespin. It's a pretty long haul, but I think we have enough fuel and food to get there. Well princess, I hope you don't get easily bored"





Now, if I were to propose a much more drastic choice in the OT.....

A lot of the problems with jedi is that there isn't anything for anyone to do, except luke. That whole movie could be about his confrontation with Vader. Everyone is is kind of a pale imitation of their former selves. So here is what I propose: kill Luke at the end of ESB...and have Leia bare witness

Here me out.

This would fuel Han and Leia for a proper return of the Jedi. Han would rise to the occasion as a true general of the rebel alliance and Leia would become the true Jedi who will take down Vader and the emperor.

What I like about this is that the true hero is not who we first suspected. Luke was impatient. He was not in control. This would be his downfall. Also, there would be a real reason for Leia to be his sister (frankly, it always seemed that they did that to avoid a love triangle)


Thoughts? Other ideas?

Bring it forth and we can tear it down!

 

[Edwardowan]

I don't even know where to begin... there isn't much in Jedi that couldn't be improved or re-written... it could have gone in so many directions.

less of a muppet-fest would be nice. Han's rescue could have been more intense... hundreds of rebels storm the palace, big firefight ensues, Chewie and Lando fly in on the falcon to blast out of there with the team... they could be called Sarlacc Team Six

the bunker battle could have been more intense with a real "entire legion of my best troops" count. the placing of the bombs could have been done more along the lines of Force 10 from Navarone... once the bunker and shield generator are destroyed they find themselves trapped, surrounded by imperial troops and needing to be rescued. Big firefight switching back and forth between Luke's battle with Vader and the Emperor and the continuing battle on Endor with some assistance from the ewoks. Leia wasn't on that mission.. she remained in command of a rebel command ship... ... Rebel troops are falling and Han and Chewie ar now out of ammo... suddenly the Falcon swoops down all guns blazing and its Leia! She rescues Han, Chewie... (the falcon was never sent to destroy the Death Star... just leave it to tiny X-wings or a-Wings since I always felt the falcon was just to big a ship to be sent into the guts of that thing.)

that's just one of a million ways to have made the big battle bigger, faster and more intense!

 

[Mr_Creepy]

No prequels.

 

[Darth Lars]

This thread should be merged with this one.

 

[Jaitea]

But the thing is....Return of the Jedi exists & the Sequel films will build on that story.....The Prequels were made and maybe the Sequels or Spin-Off films will reference them.....there were perhaps silly decisions made in those films,....but they were made and they connect

J

 

[Edwardowan]

But the thing is....Return of the Jedi exists & the Sequel films will build on that story.....The Prequels were made and maybe the Sequels or Spin-Off films will reference them.....there were perhaps silly decisions made in those films,....but they were made and they connect

J

agreed. whats done is done.. the story is what it is. I'm good with it... anyone can point their own ideas into the plot of any film to suit their interests... its canon, its ancient history at this point and all we can do is look forward to the sequel to Return of the Jedi! and that is The Force Awakens!

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

There are some things that need tweaking, I think, through the entire OT. They stand as they are (Jedi just barely), but little things -- that largely already exist -- could make the first two just that little bit better.

STAR WARS

I understand and agree with George's rationale for dropping all the Anchorhead/Biggs stuff. It does interrupt the clean through-line of the narrative of ships to droids to Tatooine to Luke to Ben to Han to Death Star. But at the same time, I think it is rewarding in other ways to include those scenes. Show how Luke is viewed by his peers. Establish Biggs' character. Flesh in more details about what's going on in the galaxy and where Tatooine stands (Empire nationalizing trade in the core systems, Biggs not going to wait around to get drafted, only a matter of time til the Empire turns its attention to the Outer Rim, etc.). I like the new sandcrawler and Ben's hut and Falcon taking off shots from the Special Edition, but the rest can go bye-bye. Especially the Jabba scene, and especially-especially Boba Fett. Oh, and Han shoots only. Never mind this "first" malarkey.

Towards the end is where the Special Edition really dropped the ball. Starting with not fixing the feeble practical effect when Vader cuts down Obi-Wan. Kudos to AdiWan for putting in the hyperspace effect seen through the Falcon's cockpit windows after the ship is supposed to have jumped. The radio drama had Luke testing in simulators while the techs and general staff were going over R2's data and planning the attack. I'd like to see something to that effect to justify why he's in the senior of the two X-Wing squadrons, rather than plunked in a rookiee suicide sled. And the rest of Red Leader's line/that scene needs to be put back in:

RED LEADER: I met your father once when I was just a boy, he was a great pilot. You'll do all right. If you've got half of your father's skill, you'll do better than all right.

And I want to see more extensive hangar facilities -- fighters in partially-dismantled state, repairs ongoing, wrecks being salvaged... Something to account for all the pilots who didn't fly out to meet the Death Star that we see during the award ceremony. And show all thirty Rebel fighters. I'm sort-of going with Red and Blue at a full dozen ships each, and Gold at half-strength with six. And take the time to match the studio miniatures (none of this entire-squadron-with-Red-2's-markings-and-Luke-flying-and-R2-D2-in-the-droid-socket garbage) and come up with unique weathering for the previously-unseen ships. Maybe even use the red-marked Y-Wings to pad out Red Squadron and the blue-marked X-wings to start Blue Squadron... We already see that Y-wings are just as fast as X-wings.

The shuffling of scenes and general refinement of the films after the first one, I'd like to see John Williams go back and re-score this one. Most of the music cues are fine, but some need a little tweaking. One thing in particular is ironing out the distinction between Darth Vader's Theme, the Imperial March, and the Emperor's Theme. Imperial forces get the March, in space or on the ground, while Vader and the Emperor have their own themes. Much as I like the Imperial March, it gets used in place of Vader's theme throughout Empire and Jedi. If necessary, write a new theme for Vader if the original is too weak. But don't borrow another theme created for a different use.

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

Mostly perfect, just as it was released. I like the Special Edition for cleaning up the matting problems on Hoth and for the space sequences, but leave out the expanded wampa stuff. I also like the idea of restoring the shot sequence for the Hoth battle, where Hobbie sacrifices himself to take down Veers' walker. I'd like to add a line or two about the Rebels having run into wampas earlier (and what killed that tauntaun) and speculating that's what attacked Luke. Rather than restore the scene where the wampas break into the cave while the Empire's attacking. But I do want the bit with C-3PO tricking the Imperial troops into going into the holding pen where the wampas are being kept...

I like the Special Edition treatment of Cloud City, opening up the walls like that. But more work needed to be done with reflections and such. I want the extended montage of Luke training on Dagobah restored, probably intercut with goings-on on the Falcon to show that both are taking weeks or months. And restore the Emperor's conversation with Vader, and Vader's order to his subordinate to pre-Special Edition state. "Bring my shuttle" was perfect. And the 2004 DVD Special Edition version of the Emperor/Vader conversation is just painful.

And, if possible, restore the fight between Boba Fett and IG-88 on Cloud City to claim the bounty on the Falcon, prior to the ship arriving.

RETURN OF THE JEDI

Well, to start, this needs to be four films, not one. Tone down George's fondness for cheap laughs and slapstick, and Jabba's palace might have been genuinely creepy. I dn't know why so much time passes between Empire and Jedi. It should be months later at the most. Not a year and a half. Let most of the film be Lando and Chewie and Leia and the droids setting up and executing their plan, only to be thwarted. Leia thaws Han, but they're captured, and Lando is trying to figure out what move he could possibly make when Luke comes in, much he way he did, with no fanfare, and saves the day, much to everyone's astonishment -- including the audience's. Give him proper Jedi robes instead of that black outfit. No Boba Fett. Let the sandstorm scene be the denoument. ANd the coda is them getting word that the fleet has assembled because the Alliance has just learned that the Empire is building a new superweapon. Luke says he'll join them in a while, he has somewhere to go first, and Leia urges him to not be long.

The second trilogy should have been about Han realizing how much these people risked to save him, even Lando, and quits waffling on being part of the Alliance. He and Lando step up to leadership roles. Our Heroes set out to try to get info about where this new weapon is being built and what it might be. A nice, taut suspense thriller in operatic mode. The second half of Return of th eJedi makes up the last two films -- but separately. The planning/briefing stuff and the execution of the attack. The revelation that the new superweapon is, in fact, operational, Luke realizing it was a mistake to go along and turning himself in, Vader taking him to the Emperor on Imperial Center, and the last film being the darkness-versus-light struggle Luke goes through, alone and in the dark, before finally winning through and saving his father in the process.

All the stuff that got way too condensed into the one film we got.

And I've said elsewhere about how the Prequels need to be a similar six-movie arc centered around Obi-Wan, and ending with the audience not having seen Yoda or knowing that Anakin became Vader or that Luke has a twin.

--Jonah

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

But the thing is....Return of the Jedi exists & the Sequel films will build on that story.....The Prequels were made and maybe the Sequels or Spin-Off films will reference them.....there were perhaps silly decisions made in those films,....but they were made and they connect

agreed. whats done is done.. the story is what it is. I'm good with it... anyone can point their own ideas into the plot of any film to suit their interests... its canon, its ancient history at this point and all we can do is look forward to the sequel to Return of the Jedi! and that is The Force Awakens!

Right on both. I don't want to change any major story points. We'd get to the same place at the end of the Saga to this point -- we'd just get there along a slightly different path, the audience having been shown slightly different things and had other things kept from them at different points.

--Jonah

 

[mattycsi]

And I've said elsewhere about how the Prequels need to be a similar six-movie arc centered around Obi-Wan, and ending with the audience not having seen Yoda or knowing that Anakin became Vader or that Luke has a twin.

--Jonah

Totally agree. They should have been made in a way that you could watch them in episode order and still get the big reveals of the OT. The PT kills a lot of suspense in ESB, cuts the legs off it in fact. Jedi also.

 

[Jaitea]

Right on both. I don't want to change any major story points. We'd get to the same place at the end of the Saga to this point -- we'd just get there along a slightly different path, the audience having been shown slightly different things and had other things kept from them at different points.

--Jonah

So are you writing an alternative story for fun?

J

 

[Jeyl]

Drop the whole "light side" and "dark side" thing. I never bought it.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

So are you writing an alternative story for fun?

Not so much "for fun" as because my sense of storytelling, honed over a lifetime and through deep study of the craft, demands these movies not be left in the sorry state they are. *chuckle* I admit I borrow heavily from the EU, but I feel less creatively bankrupt for that now, after seeing what's going on in Rebels and TFA and all the EU references they're working in. I fix the timeline, I fix the "forbidden love" thing to just be that Padawans are forbidden relationships or possessions until they prove themselves able to handle them without attachment. I have other, more subtle things, driving Anakin to the Dark Side -- inspired mostly by his conversation with Amidala in the meadow on Naboo in AOTC, about how nothing ever gets done and someone should make everyone agree. I like the challenge of making it a background enough process you don't notice it happening on first viewing, but then after getting to the second cycle, the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, and find out what happened, you can go back and see it in his mind in what he says and how he says it.

Drop the whole "light side" and "dark side" thing. I never bought it.

That's some of what I put in the extra room I have to work with by uncollapsing Jedi out into four films. Obi-Wan and Yoda, at different points, basically say the Jedi spent so long focusing on not being Sith and the Sith on not being Jedi that they polarized to unhealthy and unsustainable extremes. The Dark Jedi and Sith Lords wallowed in excess, while the Jedi denied natural impulses past the point of asceticism. I spent a while some years ago stripping away all subjective valuation around "good" and "evil" until I got to this:

The universe began, whenever and however it did. Since then, entropy has been increasing. This is not a bad thing. It's just how the universe works. Systems break down, constructs erode and crumble. All an individual being can do is work, with whatever they have on whatever scale they can affect, to either retard entropy or accelerate it. The Force is just a primal thing, somewhat like the Phoenix in X-Men -- a quasi-sentient plane/embodiment/manifestation/whatever of all the life-energy of the universe, through all time. Not infinite, because the universe isn't infinite, but still way bigger than we can wrap our heads around. It is the Creative Impulse. That which inspires the painter to paint, the architect to design, the child to build with blocks or Legos, people to have children, or form governments, or any endeavor that brings something into existence that was not there before.

"Light" is working to maintain what is created as long as possible, but allowing it to deteriorate and be replaced when it is time for such. "Dark" is working to undermine, sabotage, destroy, and otherwise unmake, for nothing more than the sake of unmaking. And it is a trap, as eroding the environment around you will have a deliterious effect on you, as well. In the films so far, Qui-Gon was probably closest to the grail -- walking the line and never straying too far toward chaos or order. What the EU called a "Grey Jedi".

--Jonah

 

[Wes R]

Have the ewoks die off in a nasty way, as per the legend of the Endor extinction. Have something bad happen to Jar Jar (though in one of the games he is frozen in carbonite) just for fans. Since Lucas is out of it that fixes one big issue. They should instead of declaring the EU never happening officially declare it an alternate universe like comic book companies do. Not everything starwars needs a videogame tie-in, honestly the Atari 2600 games were better than some of the new ones. Honestly if i had my way i'd get some of the cast of the trilogies and do the Dallas waking up from a nightmare thing where it was all a nightmare lol

Have the Jedi realize there's a large gray area between the light and the dark that they tend to ignore but end up having to face. Honestly looking at the prequels the jedi aren't much better than the sith, they're arrogant and everything Obi Wan isn't in the original movie. It reminds me of a cop show where the department isn't corrupt but they're lazy and comfortable except for a few naive cops who think they're making a difference.

 

[Wolfsburg]

In a nutshell...

As far as the OT goes...

Leia should've never been Luke's sister. I would've rather the "other" Yoda mentions at the end of TESB been left open than it be Leia. It also doesn't even make that much sense, since Obi-wan would've already known, if it had been Leia. He wouldn't need Yoda to tell him that.

No Ewoks......but if they MUST be kept, they should've been more vicious and perhaps even Gremlin-like. The movie establishes they will eat humans so the potential was there for them to be utterly terrifying! Lol! Minimally, I think a wide shot showing millions of blood-thirsty Ewoks surging like ants through the trees towards the elite Imperial troops would've better enabled me to believe such troops could've been defeated by teddy bears.

Boba Fett doesn't die. Or at least is given a more worthy death.

As far as the PT goes...

Far less political and far more more Obi-wan/Anakin centric

No Jar Jar Binks

No Qui-gon Jinn. His character should've essentially been rolled into Obi-wan.

Darth Maul (or a similar Sith apprentice) should not have died in the first movie. Perhaps defeated by Anakin and/or Obi-wan in Ep. II or III

The trilogy should've started with an adolescent Anakin as Obi-wan's friend and pupil. No need to know where Anakin came from, imo. Just doesn't matter. This is about his fall.

The backdrop of the entire PT should've been the Clone Wars

Palpatine should already be Chancellor in Ep.I

No mention of midichlorians

Owen Lars should've been one of the PT group of heroes, along with Obi-wan, Anakin, Padme and the droids.

Tarkin should've been a major up and coming member of the Chancellor's/Emperor's inner circle.

Bail Organa should have had a much bigger role from the start, Alderaan royalty and prominent general during the Clone Wars. One of the good guys and ally to Obi-wan and friends.

Mon Mothma should've had a bigger role.

Naboo should've been Alderaan.

Jedi just disappear when they die; no need to make such a big deal of it. It's just something they do. I never understood why GL wanted to make such a big thing of this and then do such a poor job going anywhere with it or explaining it.

Anakin and Obi-wan should've actually acted like they were friends and liked each other. Ep.III tried to do this a bit early on but it was too little, too late in my opinion.

In my version of the PT, despite Anakin and Obi-wan's clearly established camaraderie, Anakin is an increasingly cocky hotshot (pilot and Jedi) and thinks he can handle the "mysteries" of the darker side of the Force. He likes the power and starts behaving more and more questionably to the point of doing "whatever it takes" to get things done. Increasingly disturbing behavior and atrocities ensue during the war and behind the scenes, behind Obi-wan's back initially. The power of the dark side is addicting, like a drug. No emo whining or mommy issues. Anakin's relationship with Padme, established in Ep. I or earlier, becomes increasingly strained and they are ultimately estranged. A shame because she is pregnant. Ep.II ends in a cliffhanger with Anakin finally falling to the dark side. Ep.III is primarily Obi-wan travelling the galaxy trying to track Anakin down, in a desperate attempt to save his old friend. Make it look like he actually made an effort, as referenced in ROTJ. After perhaps a few brief encounters, this obviously would culminate in Anakin's defeat by Obi-wan...or so everyone thinks. The Empire is established at some point and black armored Darth Vader later appears. The Jedi purge begins.

Padme gives birth, doesn't die during the PT and lives her final years with Bail Organa and his royal family on Alderaan. Loyal friend Owen Lars selflessly offers to raise Luke, being potentially incredibly strong with the Force, out of the limelight as Luke's "uncle" on his home planet of Tatooine with his sweetheart Beru. Obi-wan keeps an eye on things for good measure. Yoda settles on distant and forgotten Dagobah, perhaps established as an ancient Sith planet but now teeming with life and the light. A good place for a powerful Jedi to hide despite having a few remaining and persistent "domains of evil".

Oh and Yoda is never seen fighting, at least not with a lightsaber.

 

[tubachris85x]

More snowtroopers. They're the only competent soldiers in all the empire

/thread

 

[astroboy]

agreed. whats done is done.. the story is what it is. I'm good with it... anyone can point their own ideas into the plot of any film to suit their interests... its canon, its ancient history at this point and all we can do is look forward to the sequel to Return of the Jedi! and that is The Force Awakens!

Now where is the fun in acceptance?

 

[SofaKing01]

HMMMM...

Empire was so dark... Jedi could have been equal too if not more dark.

As they were limited by technology, Jabba's Palace could have been filled with the dankest, most brutal vile scum of the galaxy. There could have been fights and even murders going on in the background... I also think Leia and Han could have been tortured... Wasn't Jabba the most ruthless vile gangster in all the galaxy?

I agree that the Endor battle could have been SO MUCH MORE in terms of action and suspense. The idea of the Ewoks being more vicious is a GREAT idea. Adding to their numbers would have been a little more convincing as well. Let's add a little more to "the legion of troops" by having TIE pilots napalming entire sections of the forest. We've had glimpses of how brutal the Imperial forces were, I don't think a little napalm would have been out of the question. There is a deleted scene where Palpatine orders to fire the Death Star on the moon - that would have been a great scene! And it reinforces their brutality.

The "journey" to the shield generator could have been much harder and filled with more traps and obstacles. While we all enjoy watching Han "beam" a box at an imperial officer knocking him over the guardrail, let's see more brutal hand to hand combat - kind of a Han Solo meets Die Hard 1.

Although the Emperor was a bit distracted with Luke and Vader, it would have been intense to see him realize that all the visions he had "foreseen" were NOT becoming reality. He could have become desperate (as mentioned is the above deleted scene) and shown to be much more brutal.

That's just my opinions...

 

[astroboy]

I really like the idea of owen Lars being one of the heroes of the prequel trilogy. He could have been great as anakin's brother. Maybe even a Jedi! His attitude toward war in ANH would have had an added layer to it

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Not a Jedi, but I would have liked to see him actually voicing his opinion that Anakin stay there and not get involved in the Wars. In my six-film breakdown of the Adventures of Obi-Wan Kenobi, the Clone Wars start in Episode III and end in Episode V, several conflicts over a span of a good decade. I have some Jedi seeing it as their duty to step up and serve, if they can do anything to prevent loss of life, shorten the conflict, negotiate resolution, or take the place of a non-Force-using soldier who stands less chance of survival... and some opted for a more pacifistic "it's not our place to fight a war" point of view. One point of character tension -- Obi-Wan and Anakin choosing to fight, Yoda refusing to (although still unseen), and Mace reluctantly getting drawn into it (lifelong struggle with his own potentially-destructive impulses).

In my version, the Ewoks don't exist/ They're the Wookiee's children, kept as hostages to force their parents to work on the Empire's new superweapon. It's a bit of a Lord of the Flies situation Our Heroes stumble into -- albeit less dysfunctional. My ground battle is a lovely thing, with the cowed Wookiees mingled amongst the Imperial troops and workers and, when they see their kids are freed from the compound and the Rebels are with them, they just go nuts and lay into the Imperial forces on all sides. George didn't want to use Wookiees by that point in the story because he'd spent two films establishing Chewie as an intelligent, tool-using, spaceship-flying being, and didn't want to show his people as primitives. Never occurred to him that maybe, as slave laborers, they'd be denied access to high-tech weapons. *sigh*

As for the Endor Holocaust, I don't want to give spoilers for my re-write...

--Jonah

 

[jcoffman99]

Luke and Han have to wear their stormtrooper uniforms after the trash compactor. Guess they wore their boots under the trooper boots.