T-TRACK GRIP PROJECT

[Prop Runner]

Does anyone have the definitive T-track profile in AutoCAD or some other 2D application with dimensions? I'd be happy to get a quote for an extrusion die and high-durometer neoprene rubber sections cut with a stamping die that gives the round ends. It's doable, but there would be an upfront tooling cost and then a batch cost for X quantity of precut sections. I could order batches for saber lengths with the rounded ends and extra-long cuts for the E-11s with standard cut ends.

Neoprene is a synthetic rubber used for a wide variety of wire and cable jacketing applications, industrial hoses, o-rings, gasket material, shoe soles, etc. The physical properties are similar to those of natural rubber, but with better resistance to oil, chemicals, heat, weather, and aging. It does not support combustion and resists abrasion and cutting. Unlike ABS or aluminum, it will bend with negligible deformation, and soften when exposed to a heat source.

If GINO, Steve, or someone else has the file and hasn't initiated a run yet, I would hold it in confidence and provide the the sender with a quote from an off-shore vendor, which would significantly reduce costs. My e-mail address is proprunner@aol.com. Otherwise, I'd be happy to create a file based on photo references and dimensions already posted here and I'll post it here for public critique.

- Gabe

 

[laszlo]

Gabe - T - track is plastic - why have it made in rubber?

 

[GINO]

Gabe,
I have been waiting for someone to step up.
I have to try to dig up the file since my hard drive crash.
If I find it, I'll let you know but I'd only be interested if it was extruded ABS like the originals.

 

[Darth Lars]

I would only be interested in grips made from some kind of black plastic.
I was going to build/sculpt a prototype to have cast in black-tinted resin for my own lightsabers, but if someone provides accurate black plastic T-track I would be in on that.

 

[Tyler Durden]

I believe a few Fett guys might also be interested in some accurate t-track for their ROTJ blasters.

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

I think that some sort of PVC might be better for the t-track. I know that Laszlo has found some of the original stuff, so perhapse he could supply some of the material so that we could match the material of the reproduction to the original.

Dan Stokes
DDStokes@aol.com

 

[GINO]

I would bet that it was a form of extruded polystyrene (ABS) that was used on the original t-track. It can come pre-colored (black) in little pellets that are then melted down and run through the die.

It would be cool to see this done. For the first time EVER would we be able to have film accurate grips on our sabers, blasters, etc...

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

I think that there is really no point in doing this project unless they are going to be as accurate as possible. If the real t-track was plastic, then the replica was plastic. If the real t-track bottom was flat, then the replica bottom should be flat.

If someone wants idealized grip material made from rubber with a curved bottom, there are already several suppliers for such material.

Dan Stokes
DDStokes@aol.com

 

[kurtyboy]

Didn't the t-track vary from movie to movie? Which one is being worked on here?

Originally posted by Anakin Starkiller@Feb 26 2006, 07:14 PM
I think that there is really no point in doing this project unless they are going to be as accurate as possible.  If the real t-track was plastic, then the replica was plastic.  If the real t-track bottom was flat, then the replica bottom should be flat. 

If someone wants idealized grip material made from rubber with a curved bottom, there are already several suppliers for such material.

Dan Stokes
DDStokes@aol.com

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[Prop Runner]

With all due respect to those who believe the originals were made of hard styrene or ABS, neither materials can do this:

Forget about the bend - look what happens to it when it enters the barrel shroud hole: it compresses, deforms. Plastic doesn't compress, it cracks. Rubber deforms. That pretty much nails the material for me.

Unless the prop makers recast the originals in rubber?

If Mark Hamill had blisters from gripping the material, I'm even more convinced it was hard neoprene, because the surface texture would be somewhat abrasive, which would be more likely to cause blistering than a smooth surface.

Also, if you extrude it with a concave bottom, it'll work great on sabers and wouldn't even be noticed on blasters. Not sure why anyone would insist it be flat. :unsure

And if some people want it shiny, just spray the damn thing with clear coat.

Food for thought.

- Gabe

P. S. Still waiting for a file...

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

Gabe, While certain plastics would crack, others wouldn't, it might also be that the prop makers used a heat gun to bend the t-track on the blaster. The material that Laszlo has found seems to be the right stuff, it is a type of plastic with some give to it. That is why I suggestested some type of PVC.

From all I've learned, I don't think that the material was a particularly brittle plastic, but at the same time it appears to ceratinly be more rigid then the type of rubber that Yodashouse and Parks make their grips out of.

Laszlo has found some vintage t-track whioch appears to be made out of a type of plastic that does deform.

If Laszlo would go for it, I would suggest that whoever ends up undertaking this project should use a sample of the real stuff as a basis for choosing the material to replicate from.

The point that I was trying to make above was that, we shouldn't look at this project as an idealized t-track. There have been far too many of those.

I think that Gino's profile looks pretty dead on thus far, and I would prefer that we keep the replica as accurate as possible rather then produce a product that sacrifices acuuracy in favor of something that is easy to work with.

Dan Stokes
DDStokes@aol.com

 

[bobasfett]

I could be wrong, but I thought the story was that it was plastic. They (the prop builders) heated it in order to bend it into the holes. Doing that, I guess it could be plastic instead of rubber.

Originally posted by Prop Runner@Feb 26 2006, 09:08 PM
With all due respect to those who believe the originals were made of hard styrene or ABS, neither materials can do this:

Forget about the bend - look what happens to it when it enters the barrel shroud hole: it compresses, deforms.  Plastic doesn't compress, it cracks.  Rubber deforms.  That pretty much nails the material for me.

Unless the prop makers recast the originals in rubber?

If Mark Hamill had blisters from gripping the material, I'm even more convinced it was hard neoprene, because the surface texture would be somewhat abrasive, which would be more likely to cause blistering than a smooth surface.

Also, if you extrude it with a concave bottom, it'll work great on sabers and wouldn't even be noticed on blasters.  Not sure why anyone would insist it be flat.  :unsure

And if some people want it shiny, just spray the damn thing with clear coat. 

Food for thought.

- Gabe

P. S. Still waiting for a file... 

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[Prop Runner]

Sorry, guys. Call me the token skeptic - remember that I'm one of the few, the foolish, and the brave who challenged the fire extinguisher dispersion nozzle theory, which was at the time also considered established conventional wisdom and "proven beyond a doubt."

Somebody can make me a believer if he can take a heat gun to a piece of rigid ABS, PC, HDPE, LDPE, or styrene and make it do this:

Check out the small print in my sig - it takes a lot to convince me of any claim or assumption if there's no compelling evidence one way or another.

I always thought that the only reason the T-tracks stayed in place on the Sterlings was because they expanded inside the barrel shroud after they were inserted, as rubber would be expected to do. Is it possible some sliding door T-track WAS made of rubber? And what ever happened to the British lorry windshield wiper blade theory? Has it been debunked completely, or was it used on other props?

Sorry if I'm asking some of you to rehash old news - I'm on a learning curve here.

- Gabe

 

[bobasfett]

Gabe....
I don't blame you for reopening this conversation at all. I think it is best that we all come to some sort of conclusion (if possible) before a run is done. There were actually people who said the t-track used on the props was metal. I was never one to go along with this thinking. A soft plastic heated to bend seems plausible to me at least. But of course there are others on this board who are much more knowledgable on this topic than me.

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

Well I have worked with PCV in the past, and I can tell you that it bends very easily when heated. So I see no problem with the grips being made from a plastic with a similar flexibilty.

I became convinced that the grips were plastic by Laszlo. He has the real stuff and can testify to it's regititiy and flexibilty. It is a hard plastic that deforms when pressure is put on it.

Also, I doubt that the grips are rubber because the pics of the t-track used on Luke's ESB (Wampa cabe version) saber show that the grips can certainly break if too much pressure is applied.

I think that at this point it has been all but established that the material that Laszlo has found is the right stuff.

 

[GINO]

Gabe,
I am a true fan of the skeptic and unpopular theorys (especially in regards to props). So I totally respect your point of view.
For the longest time, rubber grips were the POPULAR going theory.
It wasn't until recently (within the last year and a half or so) that better photo reference has proven original pieces to use plastic grips on several sabers.

If you took a heat gun to extruded abs, you could easily turn it into marshmallow softness and it will squish and bend just like rubber. It actually takes on a rubbery property with just a little heat. All the original sabers that have been in exhibits had plastic grips (the exact same style and profile).

Also, in the pic of the blaster Gabe posted, you can see the two holes on either side of the center rib which are there to nail the track onto the cupboard. They appear every foot or so on the real stuff. They wouldn't have made sliding t-track out of rubber. I think that the prop makers casting real t-track and making rubber versions is unlikely.

As far as sabers go, I'm totally convinced that they are a thermoplastic. I'm not a blaster expert but would wager that they used the same stuff on the blasters as the sabers. Fett's Rotj gun uses resin t-track as well.


Also, I'm only interested in a balls out accurate profile. I despise anything idealized for myself yet respect others preferences as well. If it was up to me, it would not be idealized at all in any way as that is my preference.

 

[Prop Runner]

Thanks for the clarifications, guys.

Didn't mean to bust anyone's balls, but I was looking for hard, conclusive evidence, and your arguments ARE convincing.

Regarding the profile, in this photo the bottom of the track DOES appear to be curved in the middle, if not all the way to the edges:

Who can explain that? Is it possible they used a heat gun to soften them and pressed them in place to conform to the Graflex tube until they cooled and kept the new shape, or is that glue that got squished out the end and created a little glob that gives the illusion of a curved bottom?

And what's the reigning theory on how the ends were rounded - with a file?

- Gabe

 

[GINO]

The t-track is completely flat on the bottom except for a crescent taken out of the middle. This was there to allow a place for the adhesive to the cabinets without it squishing out from the sides when pushed down into place.

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

The bottom of the t-track appears mostly flat, with a channel running down the center. This appears to be a characteristic of t-track. The channel is for adhesive.

I would guess that the ends were cut with a knife or saw and rounded with a file. Each grip end appears slightly different, and I believe that the finishing work was all done by hand.

For the replica, I think that straight cut ends might be the best choice for the grips. That way we could finish off the ends by hand and try to match each grip's individual profile.

Dan Stokes
DDStokes@aol.com

 

[Darth Lars]

I am not convinced that there was a channel from the start. I don't think the grips look uniform enough. The channel is apparent on the Vader/Barbican, but not so much on the Vader/ROTJ saber. There are also gobs of glue sticking out. They could be filed /dremelled down on one saber and may not be on another.