T-TRACK GRIP PROJECT

[ssdesigner]

Originally posted by Anakin Starkiller@Mar 18 2006, 04:54 PM
So did this project die again?

If anyone's listening, I'd really like to finish some of my lightsaber projects. :love

Dan

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Agreed

-Ss

 

[Prop Runner]

Hey guys. Sorry for the delay - was waiting on a package... I'd like to thank Laszlo for sending me his T-track samples all the way from England - they arrived on Friday and I've had a chance to discuss them with Gino and a couple of other people who know their saber grips.

Here Laz's samples shown in profile:

Each one is different both in profile and dimensionally, but they all look like an ABS composite, possibly with polycarbonate. As you can all see, the average width is just under 1/2 inch and the average height is just over 1/4 inch. The lower left sample definitely has a groove going down the center, while the two upper samples show signs of sink, which is when cooling plastic shrinks at the thickest junction inward, so in essence the sinks behave like grooves. These three samples have either curved or angled bottoms. The lower right sample's bottom is totally flat with 4 rows of embossed depressions resembling freeway lane markers to allow glue to adhere better. That tells me that the T-track was squeezed through a smooth upper roller and a lower embossing roller as it was extruded.

I'll be comparing these profiles to the screen-used T-tracks posted elsewhere in the thread and will whip up a 3D CAD model sometime tonight or tomorrow and post the dimensioned cross-section. Once we can agree on the profile and dimensions, I'll be quoting the extrusion tooling and production cost with my source and providing Gino the files so he can quote with his, and whoesver vendor is cheaper will get the contract. Laz's samples will then be mailed to the vendor so they can determine the exact material composition set the extrusion speeds and temperatures accordingly.

So stay tuned.

- Gabe

 

[Darth Lars]

Ah. Note the sink in the top of the fin on the top left and bottom right samples. As far as I can see the original T-track also has sunk fin-tops such as these, not perfectly round.

 

[Prop Runner]

Originally posted by Darth Lars@Mar 21 2006, 04:44 AM
Ah. Note the sink in the top of the fin on the top left and bottom right samples. As far as I can see the original T-track also has sunk fin-tops such as these, not perfectly round.

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Johan, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by sink at the top of the fins - I'm not seeing anything unusual on the tops of the fins... Do you mean a bit of a flatness on top, as opposed to a circular profile? If not, could you please illustrate in a sketch?

Thanks,

- Gabe

 

[Imperialknight]

This site might be useful as research to you guys any and every automobile trim and molding available in England. Stormtrooper Bucket mold also. http://www.classiccar-trim.com/phdi/p1.nsf...ocument&part=15

 

[Darth Lars]

Originally posted by Prop Runner@Mar 21 2006, 01:55 PM
Do you mean a bit of a flatness on top, as opposed to a circular profile?

Precisely. I don't think it is not perfectly circular or perfectly flat. A curve that maybe was supposed to be circular but got flattened into a more elliptical shape.
That is what I see, anyway...

 

[laszlo]

Great stuff Gabe - can't wait to see this project finally take off.

Thanks for the energy for this one.

 

[bobasfett]

I have been talking with Gino on this as well and I have access to an original ESB resin E11 blaster. The width of the t-track in the casting is all over 1/2" and the casting is smaller than the real world sterling due to shrinkage and thus the t-track is smaller as well.

If you are of the opinion that the t-track used in ESB was the same as ANH and taking into account the shrinkage mentioned, it would mean the original t-track is larger than 1/2" wide at the base. This is wider than the samples pictured.

Any thoughts??

 

[Prop Runner]

Originally posted by bobasfett@Mar 21 2006, 01:25 PM
I have been talking with Gino on this as well and I have access to an original ESB resin E11 blaster.  The width of the t-track in the casting is all over 1/2" and the casting is smaller than the real world sterling due to shrinkage and thus the t-track is smaller as well.

If you are of the opinion that the t-track used in ESB was the same as ANH and taking into account the shrinkage mentioned, it would mean the original t-track is larger than 1/2" wide at the base.  This is wider than the samples pictured.

Any thoughts??

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Yes, I do.

First of all, the T-tracks used on the E-11 in this photo are completely diferent than the ones used on the Luke and Vader sabers below it:

Furthermore, the Vader ROTJ T-tracks above are not the same as the Luke ESB Ranch T-tracks (somebody please correct me if I'm mislabeling the sabers):

In addition to the <0.5 in. base width, as noted earlier by Gino, the E-11 T-tracks have no fillet rounds at the base of the fin (see the sharp transition lines) and the top edges of the base are rounded, just like the top of the fin (given away by the reflected flash). Gino - can you confirm my conclusions on your casting?

The Vader T-tracks have filed ends, and I'm not convinced the fins have that much of a draft angle. When taking a macro photo from such close proximity, perspective gets incredibly distorted by the lens optics and what in reality might be parallel can appear ot be tapered. Also, the top of the fins appears consistently round, with no flatness in the middle, and there's a distinct fillet radius on both sides of the fins where they meet the base. This is very much an exception to the rule, as all of Laz's samples have no fillets between the fins and the base. Does anyone have the same photo above but without the red and green lines?

The ESB Luke fins look parallel to me, do not have filed ends, and appear to have a no radius where they meet the base, although I cannot say for certain because of all the reflections off the dust and debris. Also, the top of the fins look perfectly round, with no flatness in the middle.

Are there any more close-ups of screen-used T-track mounted on sabers that I can take a look at? As of this moment, I really don't see how I could model the T-track in a shape everybody would be happy with... :confused But based on all these variations, here's the composite profile and size I came up with:

I added a teeny-weeny flatness on top just for Johan.

Now if some people want a bent bottom, rounded base edges, or fillets where the fin meets the base, I seriously suggest we put it up to a vote, because I can't imagine there will ever be 100% agreement.

I'm more than willing to tweak the thickness, height, and taper of the fin, the fin edge round radius, and the width & thickness of the base, but in the end it will never match the original 100% so at some point we have to be happy and not go all Serafino on this thing.

So click open your Illustrators, Photoshops, and MS Paints, and do your worst to make me look like a blind idiot.

- Gabe

 

[Darth Lars]

I am convinced that it is the same T-track profile on the Vader ROTJ, Vader "Barbican", Vader "Severed hand" saber and Luke "Ranch" saber.

The fillet rounds are not exactly the same on every T-track even on the same saber, and not even on both sides on the same track. I would say up to 1.5 mm in radius.
I believe that as a result of shrinkage during manufacturing, the fin has narrowed down the base - reducing the taper and increasing the fillet. But the shrinkage has not been even.
I think I would prefer a fillet of 1.0 mm radius.

I see the bottom groove is about half as deep as the base is thick, and about half as wide as the base is wide.

 

[Prop Runner]

Johan, read my sig: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Could you please post photos of all 3 saber T-tracks and label them? I was convinced once before, but only after conclusive evidence.

FYI, I guarantee you that shrinkage WOULD NOT account for any visible discrepancies if the T-tracks from the different sabers were all extruded from one dye. Shrinkage is only a few %, and on a part this size, would be measured in hundredths of a millimeter.
- Gabe

 

[lonepigeon]

Johan is right the fillet rounds do vary even on the same piece of t-track.
The edges of the base might be a bit more square on the Vader ROTJ, but still rounded not completely sharp.
Can someone dig out some better reference of the Vader ROTJ without the premarked red outlines?

As for the ANH E-11, here's a way better pic to go from:

The "Ranch" ESB Luke saber:

As you can see curvature at the base of each fin varies quite a bit. The bottom two look sharpest while the others have obvious curves. Also you can see the fin edges are not parallel as theorized by the last pic posted.

I think it's all the same stuff too. It's just not precision made and the roundness of the base of the fin and the outside edges of the base vary greatly.

 

[Prop Runner]

Thanks for posting those pics, Chris.

Has it occurred to anyone that they might have used different (but very similar) T-tracks on the same saber? I mean, if you cut one in half, the fillet rounds at the base of the fin are NOT going to look any differently if you place them side by side...

Anyway, I've tweaked the model based on some of the feedback:

Keep the comments and critiques coming.

IMPORTANT NOTICE:

I'm considering a temporary leave of absence from the RPF for personal reasons. Rest assured, this project (from my end, at least) is still very much a GO. If anything, I'll have more time and energy to devote to it as a result. Gino is still leading the project, and he and I will remain in constant communications. Plus, if I do take a break, you'll still find me posting over at Prop Circle.

Thanks, and please no PMs, as my box is nearly full. I can always be reached by e-mail at proprunner@aol.com or on AOL/AIM as Prop Runner for a chat.

Sorry for the needless drama.

- Gabe

 

[lesternessman]

that's awesome. Your attention to detail is staggering.

 

[laszlo]

Gabe - to me that last render looks spot on.
Hope others are happy with it too

 

[CTF]

The "Ranch" ESB Luke saber:

Woah. Someone is actually holding that Ranch saber.? I didn't think you were allowed to? :confused Cool pic.

 

[Darth Lars]

Here is a pic of the "Barbican" Vader, where the difference in "fillet round" between the left and the right side can be seen clearly. (original pic by g-force)

You can also see the channel on the bottom is quite deep and wide on this track.

Gabe: I'm sorry I did not make myself properly understood about the "flatness" on the tip. I meant that I think that the top is not circular, but elliptical. Like you take a circle and squeeze it. Of course, I could be totally wrong... :$

I have scaled the width of the base to 13.5 mm and the total height to 7.0 mm. I estimate that the width of the base of the fin would have been precisely a third of the width of the flat base if there had been no round fillet or sink.
I hope that there is someone with access to an original part that would be able to provide us with actual measurements.

lonepigeon: Great pic.

 

[Darth Lars]

Here is my interpretation. I don't have any fancy CAD program so I made a pencil drawing, which I scanned and cleaned up a bit. All measurements are in millimeters, and should not be considered more accurate than +/-0.5 mm :$

I did not define the edges of the base too much as they vary a great deal. The fin could shrink a bit more in the middle. I agree now that the top should be circular, or at least close to it. Please criticize.

 

[Darth Lars]

I compared my profile with PropRunner's, and although I don't have his measurements I found that we got the same basic proportions for base width/height of the base and fin.
The difference are that my profile has a larger bottom groove and the taper is wider. Other than that, the grip would have the same height as the BlasTech grips when on a saber.

I think that the differences between different real grips are plastic shrinkage artifacts from manufacturing. That, the taper was supposed to be wide, but got straighter and with a larger "fillet round" only because the fin shrunk inwards.

The question is what people here want? More taper-straigher grips or less taper-more roundness?

 

[Darth Lars]

Bump

Please don't let this project die.