Here's the neatest summary about IX I've found yet on line from Empire. Really no spoilers at all, I was surprised by some of the newer cast members, but like many here I haven't really been interested enough to follow it. Matt Smith's role ????
If they make TLJ a dream sequence and ignore it for the rest of the saga (plus a fourth movie) episode IX could be saved. I don't even see anything to put in the trailer to make people care again.
Rey has no arc, no story just nothing and is just annoying. Finn is a running gag. Poe is a cliche and the rest... well nothing.
RJ destroyed Luke, the Force, the physics and even the fact that there's no script worse than The Room.
I've no problem with JJ. And it doesn't matter who has to direct IX. They've to work with a huge mess and I cannot imagine anything good coming out of this.
For me, the good thing about this disaster, is that it's so bad and disjointed that it's really easy to not consider it canon. Whatever was meant to happen, the ST isn't telling that story.
I agree with Solo4114 in that the OT had to be undone to continue the story and include the OT heroes. But they did so in such a boring way. The FO destroyed the Hoznian system, home of the New Republic. And we're here like, so? It wasn't like Cosruscant was blown to bits. You know, the capital planet we've known about for years? This new seat of NR power held zero connection to the audience, so it's destruction felt like a way to force people to care, and we didn't. We hadn't witnessed the rise of the NR, after the fall of the Empire, so there was no emotional impact.
Picking up the story where they did left far too many gaps in the emotional connection with the viewer.
Undoing the success of the Rebellion is one thing, and yes, it was necessary. But the way in which they did it was an abject failure, in my opinion.
I see your example re: the Hosnian system as less a problem with things being "boring" and more a problem with not handling world-building effectively. In ANH, they blow up Alderaan. We have zero reason to care about it (other than the same reasons to care about Starkiller -- a massive weapon of destruction capable of wiping out entire planets in a single shot). But the critical difference is that ANH is (for most of us) the start of a story. It's the first chapter, so ANH is doing all of the world building in front of us. We come in to it as blank slates and just accept what the movie gives us. You don't have that with literally any other film in the Star Wars series. Every film is building on what came before it (not just chronologically, but in terms of released films overall). Every film is counting on our understanding of how the universe works.
This, to me, was always the essential failing of TFA, and it's what you identified yourself: they left too big a gap in information for the viewers to create an effective emotional connection.
As I see it, TFA could've gone two ways in very broad strokes. You could do a "nostalgia/baton-hand-off" story that involves the OT characters closely, and has them passing the baton to new heroes who will feature in future stories. Or, you start as a blank slate, assuming the viewer is completely new to the franchise, and is picking up the story for the first time. It feels to me like TFA tried to do both at once, and that decision meant that you'd be spending time for new fans on old characters they don't really care about (especially given the production order of the OT and PT -- where a lot of fans in their teens and 20s are probably more connected to the Clone Wars era characters), and where the old fans are sitting around saying "Wait, WHAT? What the hell is going on?! Who is the Resistance and what's it got to do with the Republic? What the hell is Hosnian Prime and -- oh, wait, never mind. It's blown up now. But who's the First Order? Where'd they come from? Who the hell is Snoke?! WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?!?!"
I think they needed a lot more exposition in TFA, which would inevitably slow the movie down, which probably means they should have abandoned the trilogy format, which has never been conducive to telling the best possible versions of these stories anyway.
>Ahem.<
Anyway...yes, we have zero reason to care about Hosnian Prime or a lot of stuff that happens in the new film, because the film did a lousy job of explaining things and left folks spinning their wheels. Now, admittedly, the action of the film doesn't require any explanation of those things. It's irrelevant to the characters and their choices. Spending time on explaining them would be almost like breaking the 4th wall and would be more for the audience's sake. But, in my opinion, the film needed a good bit more to explain this stuff and "set the table" for the new trilogy.
There were plenty of ways to continue the Skywalker saga (though completely unnecessary IMO) without making the events and triumphs of the OT meaningless. Without rehashing the same beats from the OT and still pass the torch to new characters. I never got the impression that ROTJ was a "happily ever after ending", just a happy ending.
The direction they took was the easiest way to "reboot" and still pull in the OT fans. It worked a bit for TFA but TLJ walked the little bit of story they had right off a cliff.
I'm actually not so sure. I mean, you're really just debating degrees of failure. The Rebels from the OT and the OT heroes defeat the Empire, set up the Republic, and hooray! Now something has to come along and upset the apple cart or you don't have a new story with any stakes. Whether it was a true "happily ever after" ending or just a basic happy one, something unhappy has to intercede to screw things up in a big enough way for the audience to care. And if you're relaunching the franchise, that probably means something that looks a lot like the new Empire, and some new dark side red-saber-usin' bad guy in charge of things for the NuEmpire. Maybe you have that all fall apart in front of us during the first film in an ST. But then you're still undoing the victory of the OT heroes. It just might've been a clearer, cleaner, more positive (albeit temporary) victory.
The other issue is how to account for Luke? He's the real wildcard in this. Presumably he's more powerful by this point than he was in ROTJ, and he was pretty powerful in ROTJ anyway. So, how do you make him not steal the ST characters' thunder? You have to sideline him somehow, or he's gonna overshadow them. It's kind of the Gandalf problem. You need him running all over Middle Earth trying to figure out what's up with the Ring and Sauron and whatnot, or you need him stuck at the top of Orthanc or busy fighting off a Balrog or being dead and such, or else he'd be able to solve too many problems for the real heroes without them ever having to really break a sweat. So, that means either Luke is a jerk and doesn't want to help, or Luke is somehow tied up somewhere with something and can't help, or Luke is scared of helping or something. OR you make Luke a lot weaker than people expect him to be, which would piss people off in other ways.
The way I see it, there's really no way for the OT heroes to go on some last hurrah adventure that doesn't leave them all dead or diminished in some fashion IF you're going to have them hand things off to new heroes.
I agree with you Solo4114. No conflict, no story. That's writing 101, and sadly the course of human history too.
My overall point was that if Lucas or Disney, or whoever, is making more stories outside of the originals, then what are they really adding to the series from an artistic standpoint? In fact from what both of them have done, these additions have detracted from those movies because they have only rehashed what had been done far better by the originals. I know some may not agree but I think the articles I linked earlier made some pretty solid points to contrary.
Looking at the series in chronological order I'd say Star Wars kind of comes across as a downer. The legacy of the Skywalkers and the fates of the people in their lives are overshadowed by failure, greed, evil and death. The tone of the thing has shifted entirely and not for the better. Star Wars used to be uplifting and fun. No longer.
Well, to be fair, we still don't know what will happen with Ep. IX. Maybe it'll end on a more uplifting note. I kind of hope it doesn't end with the same degree of uplift as ROTJ, though, because that just rings false at this point. Also, I'm kind of hoping that the ST merely sets up another trilogy for these new heroes. I think Ben is ripe for a face turn of some kind, perhaps leading him to become some kind of antihero. Basically, I just don't see how you get to the end of Ep. IX and say "Ok! That's it! These characters are done now." They've barely introduced/utilized them, and it just wouldn't feel right if at the end of the film, the First Order was utterly defeated.
I guess this raises a question that I like to ask: If the failure is that the Skywalker saga was already bookended. Would this trilogy have worked better separate of the Skywalker lineage? Do you think we could have a continuation of the current saga without direct connection to the skywalkers, or would it have to be COMPLETELY its own storyline?
- I loved the character of Rey in 7. I thought she was an interesting protagonist and the mystery behind her was interesting. 8 took her powers into a territory that just wasn't interesting anymore. I want to see her struggle in 9. I want to see her up against a force you honestly believe could defeat her. I want a little peril in her arc.
She DID struggle in 9. She WAS up against a force that i honestly believe could beat her: Snoke. He DID beat her! every time she came at him, he flicked her away like a gnat. If it wasn't for Ren doing what he did, she would have perished right then and there.
And since when is it not interesting anymore when the hero becomes the hero? Were you bored when Luke triumphed over the Emporer? Oh, that's right... he had help on that score from Vader... just like Rey had from Kylo.
- I want to see Luke back (ugh... unfortunately as a force ghost) to be the moral guidance for Rey. He needs to be redeemed and I feel like his presence during her struggle would improve both of their arcs a ton.
I agree... and I think we will see this. I mean, we know he's in it... and it's reasonable to assume he will be a Force Ghost. I think it's also reasonable to assume he will be her moral guide.
- I want to see believable conflict between Hux and Kylo. I want to see Hux as the competent leader he was initially written as. I really want to see those two jockeying for the leadership role.
I don't really think that's likely to happen. after all, Hux was always Snoke's plaything... and seemed almost happy to be so. Hux hasn't any Force ability that we've seen, and seems to be terrified of (and maybe fascinated with?) those who do have it. He considered shooting Ren when he was unconscious, but as soon as he awoke Hux put that notion to rest. In reality he has no real way of overpowering Kylo, and now that Snoke is dead, there is no other authority for him to fall under but Kylo.
- Unfortunately, at this point I don't think there is any happy ending for Leia with the departure of Carrie. I think the most you can do to leave Carrie's legacy unblemished is to have Leia pass away. I kept hoping it would happen in 8 as a motivator for Kylo's sort of redemption, but it never came. It could at the very least shake him from being the prototypical villain that he seems destined to be at this point.
I am still hoping that he won't become that prototypical villain... that he will go another way. and if anyone can make that happen I reckon it's something to do with his Mother...whom he clearly still loves.
- I want to see the force tamed down a bit more. The force powers have been pretty wild in these last 2 movies, so I'd like it to be a little more refined and lessened. The force is cool because of its exclusivity and the mastery it takes to wield it. I'd like to see things get back to that.
Agree again. I have really come to love his character, and want to see him really do something which makes him feel he has made up for his First order beginnings, and that he has found his calling.
- I'd like to see Poe become a leader. He seemed completely dedicated to the rebellion and he's already the leader of a squadron. Make him an effective example for the rebellion.
- Han's death needs to be reintroduced somehow and woven into Kylo's arc. Otherwise, Han was just a dawdling old idiot who died because he was stupid, and his death is completely meaningless.
I guess this raises a question that I like to ask: If the failure is that the Skywalker saga was already bookended. Would this trilogy have worked better separate of the Skywalker lineage? Do you think we could have a continuation of the current saga without direct connection to the skywalkers, or would it have to be COMPLETELY its own storyline?
I think if you tie it to the OT heroes, you tie it to the Skywalkers. The only way to do it without tarnishing their legacies is to fling it far enough into the future that you give them an actual happy ending, so that their accomplishments live beyond them. I think that means it's gotta be in the generation that would be Luke's grandchildren or beyond that point. And also that their actions didn't set in motion some chain of events that screws the galaxy. Then you introduce totally new characters and go from there.
The problem with that approach is enough people would say "But it's not Star Wars without Skywalkers." I've long held the belief that "Star Wars" is a setting, not a checklist of people and elements. You can have Star Wars set in any time frame within the galaxy's history, featuring any characters, as long as you maintain the setting and certain elements like the Force, lightsabres, and blasters. Ideally, you keep it rooted in stuff that's familiar to people, but like, you don't have to have white-armored troopers to make it Star Wars. You don't have to have the Sith or the Jedi exactly. You don't have to view things as "it's always dark side vs. light side." You could introduce shades of grey if you wanted. There's lots you can do, as long as you expand it in such a way as to retain it being recognizably Star Wars in other ways.
I think if you tie it to the OT heroes, you tie it to the Skywalkers. The only way to do it without tarnishing their legacies is to fling it far enough into the future that you give them an actual happy ending, so that their accomplishments live beyond them. I think that means it's gotta be in the generation that would be Luke's grandchildren or beyond that point. And also that their actions didn't set in motion some chain of events that screws the galaxy. Then you introduce totally new characters and go from there.
The problem with that approach is enough people would say "But it's not Star Wars without Skywalkers." I've long held the belief that "Star Wars" is a setting, not a checklist of people and elements. You can have Star Wars set in any time frame within the galaxy's history, featuring any characters, as long as you maintain the setting and certain elements like the Force, lightsabres, and blasters. Ideally, you keep it rooted in stuff that's familiar to people, but like, you don't have to have white-armored troopers to make it Star Wars. You don't have to have the Sith or the Jedi exactly. You don't have to view things as "it's always dark side vs. light side." You could introduce shades of grey if you wanted. There's lots you can do, as long as you expand it in such a way as to retain it being recognizably Star Wars in other ways.
I agree with absolutely ever single word you just said. I've held that same idea for sometime now. Star Wars is a world we know. You can do whatever with whoever in that world and it will still be Star Wars... regardless of the name Skywalker.
She DID struggle in 9. She WAS up against a force that i honestly believe could beat her: Snoke. He DID beat her! every time she came at him, he flicked her away like a gnat. If it wasn't for Ren doing what he did, she would have perished right then and there.
And since when is it not interesting anymore when the hero becomes the hero? Were you bored when Luke triumphed over the Emporer? Oh, that's right... he had help on that score from Vader... just like Rey had from Kylo.
I agree... and I think we will see this. I mean, we know he's in it... and it's reasonable to assume he will be a Force Ghost. I think it's also reasonable to assume he will be her moral guide.
I don't really think that's likely to happen. after all, Hux was always Snoke's plaything... and seemed almost happy to be so. Hux hasn't any Force ability that we've seen, and seems to be terrified of (and maybe fascinated with?) those who do have it. He considered shooting Ren when he was unconscious, but as soon as he awoke Hux put that notion to rest. In reality he has no real way of overpowering Kylo, and now that Snoke is dead, there is no other authority for him to fall under but Kylo.
I am still hoping that he won't become that prototypical villain... that he will go another way. and if anyone can make that happen I reckon it's something to do with his Mother...whom he clearly still loves.
Agreed.
Agree again. I have really come to love his character, and want to see him really do something which makes him feel he has made up for his First order beginnings, and that he has found his calling.
100%.
I think Poe developed amazingly in 8, and I see him poised to become a great leader.
I want to see that deed literally splitting Kylo to the bone. Snoke said it did, but I don't think we've seen that from Ben enough yet.
Solo4114 and kristen jones and Inquisitor Peregrinus I just gotta say, while we disagree on TLJ and a lot of points about the series, I thoroughly enjoy the ideas you all bring to the table. That's not to say that we disagree on everything Star Wars but I appreciate how much thought you all put into your arguments and remain respectful to those on the opposing side, going so far as to really try and see where others are coming from.
Wondering if the “Luke” from TLJ will be retconned to actually to have been a lesser clone created by Snoke from the hand of the real Luke Skywalker, who will show up, in heroic fashion, during the last few minutes of the new film.
Perhaps the story of the retconned clone will be part of the “story for another time” regarding how the Skywalker Saber ended up where it was in TFA.
The critical difference is that ANH is (for most of us) the start of a story. It's the first chapter, so ANH is doing all of the world building in front of us.
We had a proxy, though, in Leia. We'd spent some time already watching her being heroic, standing up to Vader, standing up to Tarkin, their obvious respect for her strength, her message to Obi-Wan, etc. So when Alderaan was destroyed, while that scene was the first time we saw it, we felt her connection to it because of our connection to her. We knew her father was there. We knew Luke and Ben managed to escape the same fate by minutes. If they'd been able to leave Tatooine sooner, they'd have already been landed on Alderaan.
Even if not all of that was conscious knowledge, it was operating on some level as our brains assimilated the information they were being given. With the quoted example of the Hosnian system in TFA, we don't even have that proxy connection. The only material that would have given us even a slight emotional connection -- Leia's aide -- was cut from the final edit.
As I see it, TFA could've gone two ways in very broad strokes. You could do a "nostalgia/baton-hand-off" story that involves the OT characters closely, and has them passing the baton to new heroes who will feature in future stories. Or, you start as a blank slate, assuming the viewer is completely new to the franchise, and is picking up the story for the first time. It feels to me like TFA tried to do both at once
Yes and no... If it's to remain a numbered-chapter episodic saga, then the blank slate midway can't be a thing. It'd have to be a new story starting from Episode I again. Even if it had ties to the previous one. See the old Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers stuff. We got chapters of a story. Then we got chapters of the next story. Whether on the radio or Saturday morning cinema fare.
But agree TFA felt like it was trying to do both. Makes me think of Enterprise. For what we got, it should have just been the early voyages of NCC-1701 under Robert April in the 2240s. Bonus points if a late-series refit gave it (as Drexler's concept art showed) a secondary hull, and the ship were allowed to evolve over the next twenty years into the ship we saw Jim Kirk get in TOS. But the messed everythign up by putting, essentially, a ship of the mid-23rd century into the mid-22nd and trying to tell a story of the founding of the Federation with it. With time travel. And emotional Vulcans. And Andorians with ears. And...
I think they needed a lot more exposition in TFA, which would inevitably slow the movie down, which probably means they should have abandoned the trilogy format, which has never been conducive to telling the best possible versions of these stories anyway.
If you hadn't already emphasized it, I would have. And, again, yes and no. It works when used right, which it wasn't. I swear, when I had my little epicycle epiphany while working on my Star Wars re-writes, the flash of insight probably lit up the room. It was so obvious in hindsight. One trilogy to do the wordbuilding and establish the thread; one trilogy to raise the stakes, develop characters, and sharpen the central conflict; then a transitional trilogy for resolution, denouement, introducing the main characters for the next cycle, and establishing the new status quo that will be upended by said next cycle. Example:
My preliminary breakdown of the first cycle, focusing on Obi-Wan, is now:
- Ep I: Tries to keep the exposition down, but still establish the Republic, the Jedi, and Obi-Wan.
- Ep II: Political intrigue and shadowy assassins.
- Ep III: Mandalorian splinter group secretly building a clone army. Obi-Wan discovers it, after a battle, Republic takes possession.
- Ep IV: Second Clone War starts, Anakin is now a Knight. Marries Padme. Complications, but no stigma.
- Ep V: Obi-Wan, now going by Ben, and Anakin kicking butt and taking names. Sith manipulation revealed.
- Ep VI: Fall of the Republic, beginning of public opinion turning against Jedi. Luke and his sister (who isn't Leia) born.
- Ep VII: Solo, early flashback stuff from Rogue One, Empire consolidating power, Obi-Wan retreats to Tatooine to watch over a young Luke.
- Ep VIII: Essentially, Rogue One. Obi-Wan still peripheral, but not directly involved. Luke/Biggs reunion scene.
- Ep IX: Star Wars/ANH. The end of Obi-Wan's arc and Luke becoming the new Hero. To be picked up after a break of several years with the Luke-centric cycle in its first episode, The Empire Strikes Back.
There's a lot more, obviously, but that hints at the general timeline. There's room in there for worldbuilding and character development without bogging things down in talky scenes, or requiring audiences to fill in the gaps or read the tie-in books and comics.
I guess this raises a question that I like to ask: If the failure is that the Skywalker saga was already bookended. Would this trilogy have worked better separate of the Skywalker lineage? Do you think we could have a continuation of the current saga without direct connection to the skywalkers, or would it have to be COMPLETELY its own storyline?
Well, the underlying problem there I lay at Rick McCallum's feet (as well as George's, for listening to him). It wasn't originally a Skywalker-centric story, so there would be nothing to uncouple. Having Luke pass the torch but remain a mentor presence would be possible, if handled well, as with Obi-Wan to Luke a generation prior. Characters from the previous cycle can remain presences without overshadowing the Heroes of the new cycle, if those new characters are given enough of a foundation to carry the story and, basically, stand up for themselves. Much as I like the new characters, I almost feel like this is the denouement of Luke's cycle, as mentioned above. It's still his story, with the new characters getting established in the background. The flaw, as Solo4114 and I have said, of trying to do too much at once.
Solo4114 and kristen jones and Inquisitor Peregrinus I just gotta say, while we disagree on TLJ and a lot of points about the series, I thoroughly enjoy the ideas you all bring to the table. That's not to say that we disagree on everything Star Wars but I appreciate how much thought you all put into your arguments and remain respectful to those on the opposing side, going so far as to really try and see where others are coming from.
I've always tried. "Your enemy is never evil in his own eyes." There's always a reason someone argues from the position they do, and they believe they're right in it. And since this is art, there's no objective right answer. Sure, there are semi-objective metrics to the construction of a story, of a film, etc., but after that, so much depends on subjectivity on both sides of the camera. I think one of the big sticking points between "like" and "hate" camps is in how the ultra-compression of the story robs characters and events of the time and flavor they need (which I and Dan definitely acknowledge), but also that there are a lot of blink-and-you-miss-it moments that have gotten crammed in that, if you do miss it, or if you catch it but misinterpret it, will utterly change what you take away from the moment, the character, the film...
A lot of the arguments I've seen in the TFA and TLJ and Solo threads are people thinking they saw one thing, other people saying they saw that wrong, and the previous people insisting that no, they're right.
But a lot are simple stylistic disagreements. Like with Solo. Yeah, it was ticking the boxes of Han's backstory as we've largely known from the EU for decades. But one, we'd never actually seen it before now; and two, some of those things (many, really) happened differently than we knew/thought we knew previously. Or in TLJ -- I adore Poe crank calling Hux. It is utterly in character (look how he sassed Kylo in TFA), and it proved he knew his target, as it turned out to be the perfect way to wind Hux around the axle and utterly distract him long enough for the Resistance to GTFO.
It's been difficult to winnow those three main things apart into separate discussions. But civility costs me nothing, so I keep things academic. I love Star Wars and I love deconstructing things. Far as I'm concerned, ongoing debate just gives me more opportunity to do a thing I enjoy. If, along the way, I help someone enjoy something more than they did previously, hey... bonus.
This is precisely what I was going to say. We had an emotional impact with the destruction of Alderaan vicariously through Leia, and Ben Kenobi. It was her home world, as Tarkin explained. What made it more impactful was the fact that Tarkin destroyed the planet not as a military target, but as a message. To instill fear in the galaxy and show the Empire was not to be trifled with.
It was so devastating that Ben felt its destruction and the loss of so many lives through the force half a galaxy away.
That resonated with the audience in a way the Hosnian systems destruction didn't.
The reaction of the witnesses on Tacodana was lackluster. That one alien was still smoking his hookah, unphased. The lead up on Starkiller Base was like a parody of a WWII Third Reich display of force. The one little flash of scene from the perspective of the people on Hosnian Prime wasn't impactful at all because we didn't know who those people were.
(they were left on the cutting room floor, and not even included in the deleted scenes or the novelization)
IV showed the coldness of the primary villain, Tarkin, while VII gave us Hux, an unhinged madman.
There has been some good things to come out of the ST, but it's overshadowed by poor, lazy writing, and badly rehashed classic ideas.
Sorry for being off-topic, but when I saw “2015-2019”, I realized the ST started not long after the events of Back to the Future Part II and will conclude shortly after the events of Blade Runner. Really saddening if you linger too long on it.
Considering screenrant’s support of the ST, this article was certainly unexpected.
Interested to see how they wrap up the series; with that said I thought 8 was hammered $hit.
TFA was entertaining, but in my perfect world I would have liked to have seen the Thrawn trilogy with a full-powered Jedi Luke.
Interested to see how they wrap up the series; with that said I thought 8 was hammered $hit.
TFA was entertaining, but in my perfect world I would have liked to have seen the Thrawn trilogy with a full-powered Jedi Luke.
Wondering if the “Luke” from TLJ will be retconned to actually to have been a lesser clone created by Snoke from the hand of the real Luke Skywalker, who will show up, in heroic fashion, during the last few minutes of the new film.
Perhaps the story of the retconned clone will be part of the “story from another time” regarding how the Skywalker Saber ended up where it was in TFA.
