Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[cboath]

Did he though? Yoda's warning came true: "If you leave now, help them you could. But it would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered." The ST brought the destruction of the Republic, the Resistance, Han and Leia's son, their relationship, both their lives, the Jedi Order, and SEVERAL planets. If Luke had stayed with Yoda, he could have become a fully-trained Jedi Knight, and might have stood a better chance against the Sith. He would have lost his friends, but a Jedi needs to learn to let go.

Uh, really?

The result of him leaving was that both vader and the emperor died. Period. This ST doesn't factor their in any way, shape, or form.

Even if you believe the junk they used for the bs resurrection, Luke had jack-all to do with it because that had to have been in play well beforehand. Taking that to it's potential bizarre conclusion, what do you think happens if luke stays to complete the training? In ROTJ yoda tells him he doesn't need any more training, so either way he faces down EP and vader at the same basic time. The only difference is his friends are still around, not held hostage, and he has both original hands. He stays, he gets the same amount of training, loses his friends and keeps a hand.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Did he though? Yoda's warning came true: "If you leave now, help them you could. But it would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered." The ST brought the destruction of the Republic, the Resistance, Han and Leia's son, their relationship, both their lives, the Jedi Order, and SEVERAL planets. If Luke had stayed with Yoda, he could have become a fully-trained Jedi Knight, and might have stood a better chance against the Sith. He would have lost his friends, but a Jedi needs to learn to let go.

Yoda's warning had nothing to do with the ST, it's part of a self contained story told in 3 parts. He apparently only needed to confront Vader (per Yoda in ROTJ) to become a Jedi rather than continue training. There's plenty of holes in the Jedi "wisdom" from Yoda and Obi in the OT, adding in the PT or ST only muddies it up more rather than clarifying it.
Good reasons to outline a story before putting it on film.

 

[RedheadKevin]

I know that Yoda's quote was written in 1980, long before the ST was a twinkle in anyone's eye. I'm just pointing out that since the Sequel Trilogy DOES exist, Yoda's prediction came true, eventually.

The result of him leaving was that both vader and the emperor died. Period. This ST doesn't factor their in any way, shape, or form.

But the ST does factor in. Yoda was seeing into the future when he warned Luke. He just didn't say what the timeline was. If you say the ST doesn't factor in, then great! The Galaxy is saved! Yoda was wrong! Luke DID save everyone and everything! But Star Wars says the ST is part of Star Wars. There's a saying that "a pessimist is always right if you wait long enough."

What do you think happens if luke stays to complete the training?.

Now, this is all completely hypothetical fan fiction on my part. Let's say Luke accepts the sacrifice of his friends on Cloud City and stays on Dagobah. It's likely that Vader would have taken Leia and the droids prisoner. They're more useful alive than dead. He would have sent Han and Chewie to Jabba with Boba Fett.
By staying with Yoda, Luke would have learned much more emotional control and become much more powerful with the Force. He could have been a fully-trained Jedi Knight, and could have possibly beaten Darth Vader AND Darth Sidious. Who knows, Luke might even have been able to call on Force ghosts to help in that fight. Or, he could get himself killed like every other Jedi who fought DV and DS. If Vader had learned that Leia was his daughter, he could have either tried to turn her to the Dark Side, or had the same change of heart he had when he learned about Luke. Vader might even recognize his past with R2 and 3PO, and made the Leia/ Padme connection. That connection with Leia could be what ultimately redeemed Darth Vader.
If Vader captured Leia, he might also have learned that Luke was training on Dagobah, and the Empire could have glassed the planet, Yoda and Luke included.

In ROTJ yoda tells him he doesn't need any more training, so either way he faces down EP and vader at the same basic time. The only difference is his friends are still around, not held hostage, and he has both original hands. He stays, he gets the same amount of training, loses his friends and keeps a hand.

"Unfortunate that you rushed to face him. That incomplete was your training. That not ready for the burden [of knowing that Vader was your father] were you." Luke didn't need more training to deal with the emotional blow that Vader was his father, because the cat was already out of the bag. More training in the Jedi way of letting go wouldn't have done any good at that point. Luke knew everything he needed to know. He could fight, he could use the Force, and he now knew the stakes. He wasn't fighting to save a captured Leia anymore. He was fighting to save his father, and the rest of the galaxy. It would have been incredibly dangerous for Yoda to train Luke to "let go" at that point. Luke was >< this close to the Dark Side as it is, and being emotionally detached enough to fight and possibly execute Vader could have pushed him over the edge. Yoda knew that Luke's love for his father (and sister, in this scenario) would have been the more powerful emotion to defeat the Dark Side.

 

[HeartBlade]

The way I see it, I think that's intentional and what they were going for. That's why Luke has spent years beating himself up for this. He knows that Ben is no Darth Vader, that there's still light in him.

It’s intentional to write the character badly? In that I agree with you. And you are completely wrong about your favorite movie.

If that really were the case, Luke would still believe in Ben’s good side and his ability to be reformed, just like he did Vader. He is beating himself up because of his twitch reaction and should be trying to help Ben. After all, as you said, it was intentional that Luke is beating himself up because he recognizes that there is still good in Ben and thus, he can be redeemed.

Wait, so despite this revelation, Luke still does not return to save Ben, that he believes he cannot be redeemed? RoS shows that it is basically Han and Leia who help Ben return to the light.

At least he doesn’t flip flop as much as papa Palpatine.
1) Kill Rey
2) no, have Rey strike me down and I possess her
3) no, use both Ben and Rey to regain my power
4) no, die because Rey strikes me down but I don’t possess her cause she dies because reasons and gets revived by Ben for the shippers

I think old age has caught up with Palps. Or Abrams was trying to milk nostalgia character motivations and consistency be damned

 

[Bigdaddy]

I know that Yoda's quote was written in 1980, long before the ST was a twinkle in anyone's eye. I'm just pointing out that since the Sequel Trilogy DOES exist, Yoda's prediction came true, eventually.


But the ST does factor in. Yoda was seeing into the future when he warned Luke. He just didn't say what the timeline was. If you say the ST doesn't factor in, then great! The Galaxy is saved! Yoda was wrong! Luke DID save everyone and everything! But Star Wars says the ST is part of Star Wars. There's a saying that "a pessimist is always right if you wait long enough."


Now, this is all completely hypothetical fan fiction on my part. Let's say Luke accepts the sacrifice of his friends on Cloud City and stays on Dagobah. It's likely that Vader would have taken Leia and the droids prisoner. They're more useful alive than dead. He would have sent Han and Chewie to Jabba with Boba Fett.
By staying with Yoda, Luke would have learned much more emotional control and become much more powerful with the Force. He could have been a fully-trained Jedi Knight, and could have possibly beaten Darth Vader AND Darth Sidious. Who knows, Luke might even have been able to call on Force ghosts to help in that fight. Or, he could get himself killed like every other Jedi who fought DV and DS. If Vader had learned that Leia was his daughter, he could have either tried to turn her to the Dark Side, or had the same change of heart he had when he learned about Luke. Vader might even recognize his past with R2 and 3PO, and made the Leia/ Padme connection. That connection with Leia could be what ultimately redeemed Darth Vader.
If Vader captured Leia, he might also have learned that Luke was training on Dagobah, and the Empire could have glassed the planet, Yoda and Luke included.


"Unfortunate that you rushed to face him. That incomplete was your training. That not ready for the burden [of knowing that Vader was your father] were you." Luke didn't need more training to deal with the emotional blow that Vader was his father, because the cat was already out of the bag. More training in the Jedi way of letting go wouldn't have done any good at that point. Luke knew everything he needed to know. He could fight, he could use the Force, and he now knew the stakes. He wasn't fighting to save a captured Leia anymore. He was fighting to save his father, and the rest of the galaxy. It would have been incredibly dangerous for Yoda to train Luke to "let go" at that point. Luke was >< this close to the Dark Side as it is, and being emotionally detached enough to fight and possibly execute Vader could have pushed him over the edge. Yoda knew that Luke's love for his father (and sister, in this scenario) would have been the more powerful emotion to defeat the Dark Side.

Luke didn't need to "beat" Vader and Palpatine in order to defeat them and I seriously doubt that more training would have given him the ability to "turn" Palpatine away from darkness.
Delving into fanfiction: if Luke stayed on Dagobah, Vader would have discovered that Leia was his daughter and turned all his attention to making her a Sith. Then what? Luke gets to fight her as well? She kills Vader and joins the Emperor? It was bad advice from Yoda and HIS failure, not Luke's. No matter what choice Luke made it wouldn't effect the cockamamie retconning of RoS.

You got it right the first time, Luke saved the galaxy the Emperor was defeated, and Vader got redeemed. The only way for the ST to make sense, rather than a collection of "cool" things to look at is to disregard the OT and the PT.

Nothing is Star Wars because "Star Wars" says so, it simply gets that name because billions of dollars got paid. Imagine if Stephen King bought the rights to LOTR and wrote a follow-up trilogy where Frodo returns because Sauron wasn't really defeated, meanwhile Legolas went off to die after trying to murder Aragorn's son in his sleep. Many people (possibly most) that enjoyed Tolkien's work would have a hard time accepting it as part of the story, even if it was actually better than what I described.
The ST is highly produced fanfiction, literally.

 

[PantheraGem]

The ST is highly produced fanfiction, literally.

I was calling "The Force Awakens" the most expensive fan film ever made, ever since going to Celebration in Anaheim that year. Fan films generally are unwatchable. It became obvious what it was. And I left much less excited. I think many did. I was far more excited about "Rogue One" actually.

The sequel trilogy really needed to go in a different direction. Whether that was a Zahn type thing, or preferably, whatever George had in mind.

 

[Joek3rr]

It’s intentional to write the character badly? In that I agree with you. And you are completely wrong about your favorite movie.

If that really were the case, Luke would still believe in Ben’s good side and his ability to be reformed, just like he did Vader. He is beating himself up because of his twitch reaction and should be trying to help Ben. After all, as you said, it was intentional that Luke is beating himself up because he recognizes that there is still good in Ben and thus, he can be redeemed.

Wait, so despite this revelation, Luke still does not return to save Ben, that he believes he cannot be redeemed? RoS shows that it is basically Han and Leia who help Ben return to the light.

At least he doesn’t flip flop as much as papa Palpatine.
1) Kill Rey
2) no, have Rey strike me down and I possess her
3) no, use both Ben and Rey to regain my power
4) no, die because Rey strikes me down but I don’t possess her cause she dies because reasons and gets revived by Ben for the shippers

I think old age has caught up with Palps. Or Abrams was trying to milk nostalgia character motivations and consistency be damned

Do you refer to Ben or Luke as badly written?

Perhaps if Luke still had faith in himself. Maybe he would try reach out to Ben earlier. But Luke doesn't trust himself. He's lost all faith in himself. And even when he returns to his senses, he realizes that he isn't the one that can reach Ben. "I've come to face him Leia. And I can't save him."

If you would humor me. How do you think it should have gone? What should Luke have done?

And as far as Palpatine goes....
1)tell Kylo to kill Rey, renewing their conflict with each other and bringing Rey's hate to the surface.
2) have Rey kill me out of hatred so that I can posses her body. "I never wanted you dead, I wanted you here."
3) with the dyad, I no longer need a new body as I can rejuvenate my body created by the Sith Eternal.
4) Rey kills Palpatine with his dark energies, and does so not out of hate, and it kills her. 3 reasons why Palpatine isn't able to essence transfer.
Any who that's my take on those....

 

[HeartBlade]

Do you refer to Ben or Luke as badly written?

Perhaps if Luke still had faith in himself. Maybe he would try reach out to Ben earlier. But Luke doesn't trust himself. He's lost all faith in himself. And even when he returns to his senses, he realizes that he isn't the one that can reach Ben. "I've come to face him Leia. And I can't save him."

If you would humor me. How do you think it should have gone? What should Luke have done?

And as far as Palpatine goes....
1)tell Kylo to kill Rey, renewing their conflict with each other and bringing Rey's hate to the surface.
2) have Rey kill me out of hatred so that I can posses her body. "I never wanted you dead, I wanted you here."
3) with the dyad, I no longer need a new body as I can rejuvenate my body created by the Sith Eternal.
4) Rey kills Palpatine with his dark energies, and does so not out of hate, and it kills her. 3 reasons why Palpatine isn't able to essence transfer.
Any who that's my take on those....

Given the fact that in past discussions I’ve proposed many alternative ways the story could have gone in TLJ to be met by your derision and how RJ’s story of Luke being depressed is the only way it could have gone down, I’m not inclined to give an answer. I would personally rewrite TLJ completely but assuming everything is the way it is until Rey confronts Ben.

1) I would have an actual twist. Rey confronts Ben, Ben tells her that she is nobody with confidence.
2) only to be upended by Snoke, who tells Rey she is a Palpatine and praises her strength and skill while mocking Ben to his face.
3) Ben’s anger would obviously cause him to lash out at Rey and he will lose, with Snoke then using his reputation as the deceiver to turn Rey to the dark side and he succeeds.
4) Then I would have reformed Luke come in to save the day as his “redemption”, saving Ben. Luke is a redeemer, that is what makes him special. So yes, Luke should come to try to redeem Ben, even risking his life to do it like he did in RotJ.

You then get to end the movie with the heroes in dire straits. The resistance is nearly dead, Rey has gone to the dark side and is more powerful than ever, and the Resistance now must make peace with Ben who was previously their number 1 enemy. There is also no guarantee that Ben could even beat the more powerful Rey.

the final movie will then focus on Ben redeeming himself as a Jedi. Given he was Snoke’s apprentice and right hand man, he knows who he is and what he wants (thus giving the audience answers on who Snoke is). We also get to explore a new Jedi archetype which is the path of the redeemed Jedi which makes the ST worth existing (to explore this concept).

But Rey also plays an important role. He story is about finding her purpose which she tries to do through her identity. Time spent with her will also give audiences a peek into what training in the dark side is like, something that again has not been explored in movies.

Ben’s character arc is arguably based on overcoming an inferiority complex. He is a skywalker so should be powerful like his grandfather and uncle but he isn’t (losing to untrained Rey twice). He looks up to Vader, hence the helmet and chats in TFA. By successfully redeeming himself, Ben does something Vader arguably never could and thus overcomes his idol. The finale would obviously be a fight between Ben and Rey but this time on opposing sides with Ben now working to bring Rey back to the light after further instruction from Luke.

I would say both Rey and Ben survive their battle and with both having experience with both the light and dark sides of the force, are able to achieve true balance and thus develop a new way of the Jedi. This is something no Jedi has done (Revan is not included in this discussion) and thus it is the new generation of Rey and Ben who have a more comprehensive understanding of the force that become the leaders of the New Jedi order.

I would say both Ben and Luke are poorly written but for different reasons. Luke in ST is based on ESB Luke, still impatient and dogmatic in his beliefs.

Ben is all over the place, even in TFA. He is mixed and conflicted with too much light in him. He is a manchild with tantrums in TFA. Yet his backstory has him destroy Luke’s new Jedi order almost single-handily and the leader of the knights of Ren. He must have successfully slayed many Jedi students he was training with but he can’t beat an untrained Rey? Is he a a powerful competent leader or a conflicted and slightly incompetent Jedi?

But this goes without saying for the entire trilogy. Who is the first order and why are they so well funded yet so young in leadership? Why is the new republic government so blase about their own security? (the resistance was formed because Leia couldn’t get the new government to send an actual army to deal with the first order). Hell why is the resistance so underfunded when they are the people in power?

the ST is essentially watching a movie about a private military fighting to protect their country against a terrorist group but the terrorists are better funded and the country doesn’t do anything to support the private military.

 

[cboath]

Do you refer to Ben or Luke as badly written?

Perhaps if Luke still had faith in himself. Maybe he would try reach out to Ben earlier. But Luke doesn't trust himself. He's lost all faith in himself. And even when he returns to his senses, he realizes that he isn't the one that can reach Ben. "I've come to face him Leia. And I can't save him."

If you would humor me. How do you think it should have gone? What should Luke have done?

And as far as Palpatine goes....
1)tell Kylo to kill Rey, renewing their conflict with each other and bringing Rey's hate to the surface.
2) have Rey kill me out of hatred so that I can posses her body. "I never wanted you dead, I wanted you here."
3) with the dyad, I no longer need a new body as I can rejuvenate my body created by the Sith Eternal.
4) Rey kills Palpatine with his dark energies, and does so not out of hate, and it kills her. 3 reasons why Palpatine isn't able to essence transfer.
Any who that's my take on those....

Sorry, but that's on par with Bill and Ted saying 'remind me to go steel my dads keys after we save the day' or whatever the phrase was. Part of a a story is putting stuff out there. The dyad stuff was stupid. Never mentioned or alluded to in any movie prior to that, and face it, there were 10 of the damn things. It was made up on the fly for 9 as was bring back palpatine.

For things to work and be believable or acceptable, you have to build to it. You don't work yourself into a spot and make something up to get yourself out. You can do that in the writing stage, but you have to go back and plant those seeds so it pays off. For a dyad in particular, you can't have the audience thinking WTF is dyad when you first mention it. With what they did, yoda should have shown up with luke as ghosts and proclaimed rey the ultra rare 'super master jedi' so she could face the emperor with super jedi power to help her win the day. Makes about just as much sense as dyad or anything else.

 

[Psab keel]

Or what if the threat of the Emperors return was just that. A threat. When the resistance shows up to Exogol it's actually Snoke with a massive fleet ready to wipe them out. Obviously this idea would hinge on the idea that who we thought of as Snoke in 7.and 8 was merely a pawn in his plan. Idk. Just an idea.

 

[mattycsi]

Luke: "You don't need Luke Skywalker. You think what? I'm gonna walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order? What did you think was going to happen here? "

Also Luke: faces down and ruins Kylo Ren and a massive fleet of the First Order, with a mind projection.

I get the feeling had he been in the fight from the beginning, in person, he could've made short work of it.

 

[Joek3rr]

Given the fact that in past discussions I’ve proposed many alternative ways the story could have gone in TLJ to be met by your derision and how RJ’s story of Luke being depressed is the only way it could have gone down, I’m not inclined to give an answer. I would personally rewrite TLJ completely but assuming everything is the way it is until Rey confronts Ben.

1) I would have an actual twist. Rey confronts Ben, Ben tells her that she is nobody with confidence.
2) only to be upended by Snoke, who tells Rey she is a Palpatine and praises her strength and skill while mocking Ben to his face.
3) Ben’s anger would obviously cause him to lash out at Rey and he will lose, with Snoke then using his reputation as the deceiver to turn Rey to the dark side and he succeeds.
4) Then I would have reformed Luke come in to save the day as his “redemption”, saving Ben. Luke is a redeemer, that is what makes him special. So yes, Luke should come to try to redeem Ben, even risking his life to do it like he did in RotJ.

You then get to end the movie with the heroes in dire straits. The resistance is nearly dead, Rey has gone to the dark side and is more powerful than ever, and the Resistance now must make peace with Ben who was previously their number 1 enemy. There is also no guarantee that Ben could even beat the more powerful Rey.

the final movie will then focus on Ben redeeming himself as a Jedi. Given he was Snoke’s apprentice and right hand man, he knows who he is and what he wants (thus giving the audience answers on who Snoke is). We also get to explore a new Jedi archetype which is the path of the redeemed Jedi which makes the ST worth existing (to explore this concept).

But Rey also plays an important role. He story is about finding her purpose which she tries to do through her identity. Time spent with her will also give audiences a peek into what training in the dark side is like, something that again has not been explored in movies.

Ben’s character arc is arguably based on overcoming an inferiority complex. He is a skywalker so should be powerful like his grandfather and uncle but he isn’t (losing to untrained Rey twice). He looks up to Vader, hence the helmet and chats in TFA. By successfully redeeming himself, Ben does something Vader arguably never could and thus overcomes his idol. The finale would obviously be a fight between Ben and Rey but this time on opposing sides with Ben now working to bring Rey back to the light after further instruction from Luke.

I would say both Rey and Ben survive their battle and with both having experience with both the light and dark sides of the force, are able to achieve true balance and thus develop a new way of the Jedi. This is something no Jedi has done (Revan is not included in this discussion) and thus it is the new generation of Rey and Ben who have a more comprehensive understanding of the force that become the leaders of the New Jedi order.

I would say both Ben and Luke are poorly written but for different reasons. Luke in ST is based on ESB Luke, still impatient and dogmatic in his beliefs.

Ben is all over the place, even in TFA. He is mixed and conflicted with too much light in him. He is a manchild with tantrums in TFA. Yet his backstory has him destroy Luke’s new Jedi order almost single-handily and the leader of the knights of Ren. He must have successfully slayed many Jedi students he was training with but he can’t beat an untrained Rey? Is he a a powerful competent leader or a conflicted and slightly incompetent Jedi?

But this goes without saying for the entire trilogy. Who is the first order and why are they so well funded yet so young in leadership? Why is the new republic government so blase about their own security? (the resistance was formed because Leia couldn’t get the new government to send an actual army to deal with the first order). Hell why is the resistance so underfunded when they are the people in power?

the ST is essentially watching a movie about a private military fighting to protect their country against a terrorist group but the terrorists are better funded and the country doesn’t do anything to support the private military.

I find your idea of a of Rey and Ben switching sides interesting. I do prefer what we got, but nevertheless it is intriguing.

But I do have few questions and comments, if I could.

First, you say that Luke should have redeemed Ben. How? How does one go about redeeming someone? Particularly in this case, where Ben hates his uncle. He would have happily Darth Maul-ed his uncle on Crait. To me that's like saying Obi-Wan should have redeemed Anakin. I guess I'm just looking for specifics. Of how you thought that would go down.


Further on the redeeming side of things. The higher ups at Lucasfilm were keen on Leia redeeming her son. This had to be adjusted due of course to Carrie's untimely passing. But it's something that seems to have been universally agreed upon within Lucasfilm. (Also if I recall there's mythological bases for the women being the healer. But I forget where I read or heard that at)

Now, I really like your idea of them living and achieving balance. But I have to wonder. Have we not seen Jedi that have already done this? I would argue, that Obi-Wan, Yoda, Luke, and Anakin, all found balance. (And in the animated shows, The Father, and the Bendu) It brings up an interesting question about balance. While balance is something we are told is somthing good. I believe it's an impossible to achieve. Because it's such a fine line, and it's very easy to drift to the dark side(see the Bendu). All the characters I mentioned either achieved balance, while they were exiled away, or right before death. But it's an intriguing concept.

I'm probably biased. But I don't see anything wrong with Ben. He's an angry young man. That anger makes him powerful, but also unstable. The same goes for much of the First Order, they purposely meant to invoke, angry, young fanatics, like the Hitler youth, or neo-NAZIs. Many are just angry at the world, and their parents, just to be angry, not knowing why. They are taught to despise and hate their parents, and their parents "old fashioned" ways.

 

[Joek3rr]

Sorry, but that's on par with Bill and Ted saying 'remind me to go steel my dads keys after we save the day' or whatever the phrase was. Part of a a story is putting stuff out there. The dyad stuff was stupid. Never mentioned or alluded to in any movie prior to that, and face it, there were 10 of the damn things. It was made up on the fly for 9 as was bring back palpatine.

For things to work and be believable or acceptable, you have to build to it. You don't work yourself into a spot and make something up to get yourself out. You can do that in the writing stage, but you have to go back and plant those seeds so it pays off. For a dyad in particular, you can't have the audience thinking WTF is dyad when you first mention it. With what they did, yoda should have shown up with luke as ghosts and proclaimed rey the ultra rare 'super master jedi' so she could face the emperor with super jedi power to help her win the day. Makes about just as much sense as dyad or anything else.

I hear you. But then I remember this happened.......

And this....

 

[CT1138]

I hear you. But then I remember this happened.......
View attachment 1354294
View attachment 1354295

Also, you can't use the excuse the Leia didn't know. Because she straight up says she always had the sneaking suspicion, which makes it entirely worse...

 

[Joek3rr]

Also, you can't use the excuse the Leia didn't know. Because she straight up says she always had the sneaking suspicion, which makes it entirely worse...
View attachment 1354423

Force kiss?

 

[Spyhunter2k]

You know I always thought that those calling you a troll were wrong. Not sure about it now.

Yep. At the very least it should be abundantly clear that it is useless to engage him. He's made it clear that he is unable or unwilling to acknowledge that the ST contains anything less than perfection. Whether he's doing it for twisted kicks or not, in the end your breath is just as wasted either way.

 

[HeartBlade]

I find your idea of a of Rey and Ben switching sides interesting. I do prefer what we got, but nevertheless it is intriguing.

But I do have few questions and comments, if I could.

First, you say that Luke should have redeemed Ben. How? How does one go about redeeming someone? Particularly in this case, where Ben hates his uncle. He would have happily Darth Maul-ed his uncle on Crait. To me that's like saying Obi-Wan should have redeemed Anakin. I guess I'm just looking for specifics. Of how you thought that would go down.


Further on the redeeming side of things. The higher ups at Lucasfilm were keen on Leia redeeming her son. This had to be adjusted due of course to Carrie's untimely passing. But it's something that seems to have been universally agreed upon within Lucasfilm. (Also if I recall there's mythological bases for the women being the healer. But I forget where I read or heard that at)
View attachment 1354099View attachment 1354100

Now, I really like your idea of them living and achieving balance. But I have to wonder. Have we not seen Jedi that have already done this? I would argue, that Obi-Wan, Yoda, Luke, and Anakin, all found balance. (And in the animated shows, The Father, and the Bendu) It brings up an interesting question about balance. While balance is something we are told is somthing good. I believe it's an impossible to achieve. Because it's such a fine line, and it's very easy to drift to the dark side(see the Bendu). All the characters I mentioned either achieved balance, while they were exiled away, or right before death. But it's an intriguing concept.

I'm probably biased. But I don't see anything wrong with Ben. He's an angry young man. That anger makes him powerful, but also unstable. The same goes for much of the First Order, they purposely meant to invoke, angry, young fanatics, like the Hitler youth, or neo-NAZIs. Many are just angry at the world, and their parents, just to be angry, not knowing why. They are taught to despise and hate their parents, and their parents "old fashioned" ways.

min my proposed redraft, I cheated a bit by retconning the meeting between Luke and Ben. You usually need a person to hit rock bottom before they realize they have a problem and seek help (hence why it is difficult for people to seek treatment for addiction, etc). You need to first out Ben in a mindset where he is willing to seek redemption by first crushing him. Snoke does this by throwing him away for Rey and Rey finishes this by utterly wrecking him in their second fight, showing she is a superior force wielder and fighter like what Vader is to Ben. Utterly defeated and alone, it is Luke who reaches out his hand and recognizing he has nothing left, Ben is finally willing to accept it. I agree Like can’t change Ben by going in guns blazing but by having an “open door” policy and it requires Ben to also be willing to walk through the door before he can begin his redemption.

I would argue that no Jedi has truly achieved balance because of their dogmatic view that once you go dark,you can’t go back. Yoda urges Obi Wan to kill Anakin in 3 because he is a Sith and cannot be redeemed. He sees his former apprentice Dooku fall and makes no attempt to bring him back to the order. Obi Wan and Yoda both encourage Luke to kill Vader because he is a Sith and can never return to the light. These guys arnt going to dare dabble with the dark side.

However, Star Wars reveals in VI that you can be redeemed even if you fall to the dark side. Although Vader dies shortly after, it is possible and thus opens an aspect of the force that has not been explored before. Can a Jedi wield the dark side for good? Can they balance both so they have a more comprehensive view of the force and its “will”? These are questions that are worth exploring and given that we have Ben who is too mixed with both light and dark to choose a side, an possible chance to explore those questions. I suspect Lucas was planning on delving into the force and what it is looking at both the light and dark, hence why his proposal was looking into the world of midiclorians.

The First Order/New Republic was also very poorly established throughout the trilogy imo. It’s implied that the New Republic has been in power for several years so you would think they would have established a proper army or attain some form of monopoly military power to establish rule. Even if set up like the UN (democratic alliance of countries/worlds), there is the threat of force where if any country/world tries to unilaterally conquer another, the world’s military will unite to crush the attempt and sanction the offending country, hence why current conflicts are between states and non-state forces (terrorist cells).

Since they are newly established, you would think the New Republic would be incredibly wary of any such threats such as the First Order rising since their success could easily topple the newly established government. Yet in TFA, the Republic does nothing and relies on Leia with a ragtag team of volunteers to fight the threat, hence their near destruction in TLJ. And even in RoS, the people that come to save them is another rag tag team of volunteers, no unified effort by the New Republic. The First Order was kind of a ragtag team who seemed to have a vague vision of restoring the galactic empire but they were miles better than the New Republic.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

OK...OK...OK....

Let’s move on to a much more important topic in the Sequel Trilogy.

Something has always looked very strange, in the cinematic masterpiece that is The Very Last In The Lunch Line Of The Jedi...

Why is it that the character of “Luke Skywalker“, as portrayed by actor Mark Hamill, has this strange and unnatural stance when he is holding his lightsaber? It almost appears that the saber blade is attached to something, above and outside of camera range—perhaps a line, or a cable—that is actually holding him up and causing his center of gravity to be somewhere out in front of him.

Am I the only one that thinks it looks like he’s riding a Poma Lift?

 

[Psab keel]

Return of the Jedi really explored the Yin and Yang concept of some evil existing within good and some good existing within evil. I mean so much of the conflict between Luke and Vader during their final battle really shows this idea so well as Luke is being pulled to the dark and Vader to the light. It really could have translated to some interesting story developments in the ST where they started to explore the morally ambiguous areas of life within the Star Wars universe and that perhaps not everything needed to be so delineated.

Especially when you consider (and I think it was explored in the EU novels) the idea that Luke's new academy allowed for relationships within the Jedi ranks. Because of his experience redeeming Anakin, he sees that the Old Republic Jedi were wrong to forbid attachments because it robbed them of their humanity. It was too far detached and without those relationships the galaxy suffered for it. For the old Jedi order, attachments were a weakness that could be exploited but to Luke those relationships, though imperfect, were actually strengths.

I always loved that idea because it took the ideals of the Jedi and evolved them by using Luke's unique experience as the lens through which the audience could have a new understanding of the Force.

 

[Halliwax]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Gave up feeding into this almost a year ago..