Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[sztriki]

Same to you.

Naturally I think you're wrong and I'm right.

You know I always thought that those calling you a troll were wrong. Not sure about it now.
It's super ironic how much you bang on about Luke winning by not fighting and when multiple people throw their verbal lightsabers away and tell you "fine mate, enjoy it and let's stop the fight cuz it ain't worth it" you keep on fighting and provoking them.

 

[Joek3rr]

You know I always thought that those calling you a troll were wrong. Not sure about it now.

Tis a joke.....

 

[Joek3rr]

Apathy combined with inaction is not heroic. It's one thing if Luke didn't want to train anyone else and let his knowledge of the Force die with him but he was still engaged in the fight against evil. It's another thing entirely to have him sulk on an island alone with the galaxy on fire because of a mess he was partially responsible for, especially if he's unwilling to take action.

You can think whatever you want about it but I don't understand your need to prove me and others wrong. If I'm wrong, then so be it. You've already won. Big deal.

And? Since was depression and disillusionment heroic?

Right, the galaxy is on fire and he's partially responsible. So why would he jump head long into the conflict adding fuel to the fire? Violence breeds violence.

 

[tcsmit29]

lol can’t believe this thread is still going

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

 

[Joek3rr]

You know I always thought that those calling you a troll were wrong. Not sure about it now.
It's super ironic how much you bang on about Luke winning by not fighting and when multiple people throw their verbal lightsabers away and tell you "fine mate, enjoy it and let's stop the fight cuz it ain't worth it" you keep on fighting and provoking them.

As long as they say stuff, I'm going to reply.

 

[Joek3rr]

Well this was timely. I agree 100% with him.

 

[Psab keel]

And? Since was depression and disillusionment heroic?

Right, the galaxy is on fire and he's partially responsible. So why would he jump head long into the conflict adding fuel to the fire? Violence breeds violence.

Because heroes at least try and clean up their mistakes, even if they fail in the effort they try. Inaction is worse. And makes for a boring movie.

As long as they say stuff, I'm going to reply.

And there it is. That's the difference between us. I'm happy to let you have your opinion, even though I disagree with you. You don't seem to be willing to let me have mine without pointing out how I'm wrong. Constantly.

 

[CT1138]

Luke didn't run off to die in ROTJ...

He didn't run, but he was fully prepared to die rather than embrace the Dark Side.

 

[HeartBlade]

He didn't run, but he was fully prepared to die rather than embrace the Dark Side.

he was fully prepared to die if his gambit failed (turning Vader back to the light side). It was his only choice since he is going up against 2 incredibly powerful dark side users and Luke is only a Jedi knight.

Luke isn’t a stupid Shōnen jump character. He took a risky gamble because he firmly believed in the light within his father. However, if he failed to convert him back to the light, he would rather die than strike his father down and take his place as a new Sith apprentice.

and yes, apathy is never heroic, hence the quote “the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”.

Also ironic how Joker likes my matrix analogy since that was made in jest. I was expecting people to call me out for how stupid an idea it was but people are nice on this forum.

 

[Joek3rr]

Because heroes at least try and clean up their mistakes, even if they fail in the effort they try. Inaction is worse. And makes for a boring movie.



And there it is. That's the difference between us. I'm happy to let you have your opinion, even though I disagree with you. You don't seem to be willing to let me have mine without pointing out how I'm wrong. Constantly.

And what would that entail? And what would Luke cleaning up his mistake look like? Maybe he would face Ben and apologize?

Just voicing my own opinion.....apparently I can't do that....

 

[Psab keel]

You can voice your opinion all you want. No one is stopping you. Just like no one is stopping you from endlessly enjoying TLJ. My opinion should have no bearing on your enjoyment because it's essentially irrelevant if the movie holds up to the utmost scrutiny, no?

But you're not adding anything of substance to the conversation by accepting everything that movie presents as though it were without flaw. And you certainly aren't helping your own case if you insist on correcting people at every opportunity. Seriously what do you get out of this?

Do you want me to say The Last Jedi is the best Star Wars movie of all time and that you are right and we are all wrong for hating on it?

Is that what you're after? Because it seems like you are hell bent on converting everyone here to be fans of it or at the least trying to "win."

Have at it man. If you're that confident in your position then you can live with the satisfaction that the haters are missing out. What difference does it make to you?

You just aren't going to change anyone's mind with your approach.

 

[HeartBlade]

Yeah problem with the video is it highlights the core issue with Luke’s characterization and development throughout the ST, Ben’s characterization.

Luke goes through hell because of one instance: his instinctual decision to strike down Ben in his sleep. This results in his depression, redemption from a talk with Yoda, then finally confronting Ben to try to bring him back.

Makes sense if Ben in the ST was Darth Caedus (Han and Leia’s son who was exceptionally intelligent and talented in the force but flirts too much with the dark side and is lost forever). Darth Caedus is irredeemable despite the best attempts by Luke and his extended family, Caedus causing irreparable harm such as killing Mara Jade. However, even causing far more destruction than Kylo ever did, Luke is sworn to redeem Jacen and it becomes up to Jaina Solo to take down her brother once and for all. Jacen does redeem himself but it is too late as his sister ends his life.

Unfortunately, Ben is far from the capable powerful mastermind Darth Caedus was. He is still a Sith fledgling that has so much light in him that Snoke specifically instructs him to commit more brutal acts, hence why Ben killed Han Solo. There is so much good in him that Ben couldn’t shoot the resistance ship because he sensed his mom was on board. Hell, even Rey senses the good in him and goes to Snoke because she believes he can be redeemed, mirroring what Luke did for Vader (real original).

You are telling me that Luke whose character is honestly sensing the good in people to a fault (see Vader for movies, Mara Jade for non canon) and a typical Jedi trait of giving bad guys the benefit of the doubt (see Obi Wan and Ventress, Maul) failed and refused to see the good in Ben when nearly everyone else did?

Essentially, this depressed turned his back on the force Luke can exist but he cannot exist with a Kylo Ren who is stuck between good and evil. He must exist alongside a Kylo Ren who is so soaked in the dark side and destruction that he makes Palpatine look like Nute Gunray.

 

[Joek3rr]

You can voice your opinion all you want. No one is stopping you. Just like no one is stopping you from endlessly enjoying TLJ. My opinion should have no bearing on your enjoyment because it's essentially irrelevant if the movie holds up to the utmost scrutiny, no?

But you're not adding anything of substance to the conversation by accepting everything that movie presents as though it were without flaw. And you certainly aren't helping your own case if you insist on correcting people at every opportunity. Seriously what do you get out of this?

Do you want me to say The Last Jedi is the best Star Wars movie of all time and that you are right and we are all wrong for hating on it?

Is that what you're after? Because it seems like you are hell bent on converting everyone here to be fans of it or at the least trying to "win."

Have at it man. If you're that confident in your position then you can live with the satisfaction that the haters are missing out. What difference does it make to you?

You just aren't going to change anyone's mind with your approach.

I get enjoyment out discussing why I love not just TLJ, and not just the ST, but all of Star Wars. I love being challenged and having to justify my point of view.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. In fact I left this thread alone for a few days. When I returned I found that it was endless negative comments. So I want to share my positive opinions.

 

[Psab keel]

What difference does it make if all the comments were negative?

If all you're going to do is regurgitate everything Rian Johnson says as though it's beyond reproof, then you have nothing of value to add to this conversation. If you can even in the slightest acknowledge that perhaps some things in this trilogy could have been handled better or even differently, instead of dismissing everyone who disagrees with you, then perhaps you'd get more people to be open to your perspective. You give the same smug responses Rian does as though they are proof enough. Repeating them endlessly doesn't make them any more convincing. It just makes me double down on my stance that his concepts are insanely stupid. So every time you defend it and expect others to be swayed it actually has the opposite effect.

Just because we ended up with this version of the ST, doesn't mean that it was the only way it could have worked. If you aren't amenable to even agreeing to that point, which is what opens up the conversation to broader ideas about the narrative and it's potential, then you're wasting everyone's time because it bogs the conversation down into the cyclical nonsense that has gone on for the last 3 years.

I tire of having to qualify my posts with the reiteration that I'm not hating on you for liking this movie (because I get along perfectly well with others who enjoyed it), but what I AM suggesting is that perhaps a little self awareness on your part is needed if you want to stop being called a troll.

Until that time you're just going to have to deal with people calling you out for being annoying. It's not my place to tell you how to enjoy this. Just have the courtesy to return the sentiment.

 

[sztriki]

I get enjoyment out discussing why I love not just TLJ, and not just the ST, but all of Star Wars. I love being challenged and having to justify my point of view.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. In fact I left this thread alone for a few days. When I returned I found that it was endless negative comments. So I want to share my positive opinions.

You know who loves Star Wars? I love Star Wars. Loving things unconditionally doesn't mean you love it more. It just means you love it sadder. - Jenny Nicholson

But this is not about Star Wars anyway, it's about ego.

 

[Joek3rr]

Yeah problem with the video is it highlights the core issue with Luke’s characterization and development throughout the ST, Ben’s characterization.

Luke goes through hell because of one instance: his instinctual decision to strike down Ben in his sleep. This results in his depression, redemption from a talk with Yoda, then finally confronting Ben to try to bring him back.

Makes sense if Ben in the ST was Darth Caedus (Han and Leia’s son who was exceptionally intelligent and talented in the force but flirts too much with the dark side and is lost forever). Darth Caedus is irredeemable despite the best attempts by Luke and his extended family, Caedus causing irreparable harm such as killing Mara Jade. However, even causing far more destruction than Kylo ever did, Luke is sworn to redeem Jacen and it becomes up to Jaina Solo to take down her brother once and for all. Jacen does redeem himself but it is too late as his sister ends his life.

Unfortunately, Ben is far from the capable powerful mastermind Darth Caedus was. He is still a Sith fledgling that has so much light in him that Snoke specifically instructs him to commit more brutal acts, hence why Ben killed Han Solo. There is so much good in him that Ben couldn’t shoot the resistance ship because he sensed his mom was on board. Hell, even Rey senses the good in him and goes to Snoke because she believes he can be redeemed, mirroring what Luke did for Vader (real original).

You are telling me that Luke whose character is honestly sensing the good in people to a fault (see Vader for movies, Mara Jade for non canon) and a typical Jedi trait of giving bad guys the benefit of the doubt (see Obi Wan and Ventress, Maul) failed and refused to see the good in Ben when nearly everyone else did?

Essentially, this depressed turned his back on the force Luke can exist but he cannot exist with a Kylo Ren who is stuck between good and evil. He must exist alongside a Kylo Ren who is so soaked in the dark side and destruction that he makes Palpatine look like Nute Gunray.

The way I see it, I think that's intentional and what they were going for. That's why Luke has spent years beating himself up for this. He knows that Ben is no Darth Vader, that there's still light in him. It just makes Luke's failure all the more tragic and poignant. I like it.

 

[Joek3rr]

What difference does it make if all the comments were negative?

If all you're going to do is regurgitate everything Rian Johnson says as though it's beyond reproof, then you have nothing of value to add to this conversation. If you can even in the slightest acknowledge that perhaps some things in this trilogy could have been handled better or even differently, instead of dismissing everyone who disagrees with you, then perhaps you'd get more people to be open to your perspective. You give the same smug responses Rian does as though they are proof enough. Repeating them endlessly doesn't make them any more convincing. It just makes me double down on my stance that his concepts are insanely stupid. So every time you defend it and expect others to be swayed it actually has the opposite effect.

Just because we ended up with this version of the ST, doesn't mean that it was the only way it could have worked. If you aren't amenable to even agreeing to that point, which is what opens up the conversation to broader ideas about the narrative and it's potential, then you're wasting everyone's time because it bogs the conversation down into the cyclical nonsense that has gone on for the last 3 years.

I tire of having to qualify my posts with the reiteration that I'm not hating on you for liking this movie (because I get along perfectly well with others who enjoyed it), but what I AM suggesting is that perhaps a little self awareness on your part is needed if you want to stop being called a troll.

Until that time you're just going to have to deal with people calling you out for being annoying. It's not my place to tell you how to enjoy this. Just have the courtesy to return the sentiment.

Is it not a two way street? Why should some be able to talk about what they perceive as faults all the live long day? But another cannot talk about they perceive as virtues of these movies?

I like Rian, and I like what he has to say. And yeah I wonder if things could have done better. But I don't dwell on it. What's done is done. And at the end of the day, I like what they did.

Talk about cyclical nonsense. Remember when the TLJ thread was revived? One person posted something positive about TLJ, and then came the flood of negative comments, saying the exact same thing they had 3 years ago.

I know your not hating on me. Our differences though heated, I don't think your attacking me. You feel strongly about your opinion, and you should. (I really should dip my toes in the Star Trek threads, I think you and I largely see eye to eye on that. Funny that its like that.)



-----------------

And with that all said. I do want to apologize to you and everyone. I see I replied to like 3 or 4 of your comments in a row. You probably feel like I'm targeting you. NOT my intention. Very sorry. And everyone else, sorry if I'm getting annoying, I admit I get a little carried away.

 

[Psab keel]

Is it not a two way street? Why should some be able to talk about what they perceive as faults all the live long day? But another cannot talk about they perceive as virtues of these movies?

I like Rian, and I like what he has to say. And yeah I wonder if things could have done better. But I don't dwell on it. What's done is done. And at the end of the day, I like what they did.

Talk about cyclical nonsense. Remember when the TLJ thread was revived? One person posted something positive about TLJ, and then came the flood of negative comments, saying the exact same thing they had 3 years ago.

I know your not hating on me. Our differences though heated, I don't think your attacking me. You feel strongly about your opinion, and you should. (I really should dip my toes in the Star Trek threads, I think you and I largely see eye to eye on that. Funny that its like that.)



-----------------

And with that all said. I do want to apologize to you and everyone. I see I replied to like 3 or 4 of your comments in a row. You probably feel like I'm targeting you. NOT my intention. Very sorry. And everyone else, sorry if I'm getting annoying, I admit I get a little carried away.

I pretty much stayed out of TLJ thread when it got necroposted for fear of getting bogged down in it.

You say you think about where they could have done things better but don't dwell on it. To me that's where the discussion is at its most vibrant because it's a chance for fans to explore what could have been.

I'm not going to tell you to stop posting but what I would suggest is that rather than just tell us what you like about the movie and the ST, you might find more like minded people if you explore ideas outside what we got. It doesn't betray your devotion to the franchise.

It's just a mental exercise to try and think creatively. Besides if you only focus on the positive then the discussion tends to stagnate.

 

[Joek3rr]

I pretty much stayed out of TLJ thread when it got necroposted for fear of getting bogged down in it.

You say you think about where they could have done things better but don't dwell on it. To me that's where the discussion is at its most vibrant because it's a chance for fans to explore what could have been.

I'm not going to tell you to stop posting but what I would suggest is that rather than just tell us what you like about the movie and the ST, you might find more like minded people if you explore ideas outside what we got. It doesn't betray your devotion to the franchise.

It's just a mental exercise to try and think creatively. Besides if you only focus on the positive then the discussion tends to stagnate.

I'll shall try.

 

[RedheadKevin]

Luke didn't run off to die in ROTJ, as far as ESB goes he made the right choice.

Did he though? Yoda's warning came true: "If you leave now, help them you could. But it would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered." The ST brought the destruction of the Republic, the Resistance, Han and Leia's son, their relationship, both their lives, the Jedi Order, and SEVERAL planets. If Luke had stayed with Yoda, he could have become a fully-trained Jedi Knight, and might have stood a better chance against the Sith. He would have lost his friends, but a Jedi needs to learn to let go.