Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
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sztriki
Sr Member
Trying to observe this discussion from a three steps distance, I have to conclude again how much the PT botched everything by making Anakin/Vader the be all end all thing instead of telling the story of a war where a good man is seduced by his hunger for power. I'm just so happy that I can mentally seal all this bull* whenever I watch the OT...never once midiclorians, Mustafar, immaculate Force conception or Vader meeting C3PO comes to mind when I rewatch the old movies...
It's been a challenge compartmentalizing each of the trilogies for me, but it's been made easier with the Team Negative One efforts. I did watch Empire last week when a buddy of mine told me he was going to see it in the theater last Sunday as a limited engagement for the 40th anniversary. I would have joined him if I didn't have to work. For all of my love of those three films, I don't watch them all that often anymore but hearing his excitement just got me thinking about it enough where I popped some popcorn, poured a soft drink and watched it. Man, what a fantastic movie!
Paul Andrew
Master Member
I'm betting that post Skywalker Saga is off limits until the films go there. They aren't going to be able to maintain the thin facade of 'its all canon' now if they let a bunch of writers loose on that section of timeline.
Solo4114
Master Member
A couple of thoughts.
First, I think the "End of the Skywalker Saga" bit is really just marketing fluff. For one thing, I'm old enough to remember when Friday the 13th Part IV was subtitled "The Final Chapter."
They made 7 more films in the series, before rebooting it with an 8th, and then dropping it (for now....it'll be back, I'm sure). The penultimate one (Jason Goes to Hell) was also subtitled "The Final Friday." Then they made Jason In Space and Jason vs. Freddy.
Forget it, Jake. It's marketing.
Second, I think with the ST, "Skywalker" has become less bloodline and more a title. But let's be clear: JJ's rather myopic vision and storytelling chops (or lack thereof) are what lead us to the somewhat confusing outcome of Palpatine becoming an honorary Skywalker, and leaving things there.
The saga of the Skywalker bloodline is indeed over with Ben's death (and Leia's and Luke's). That doesn't mean that "Skywalker" couldn't become synonymous or even a neologism for "Jedi." Perhaps if we ever see a post-ST set of films, Rey will lead "The Skywalker Order" or something, and instead of being an institutional entity like the Jedi at the fall of the Republic, they'll be more like wandering do-gooders who battle those who would use the Force to harm or dominate others. Knights Errant, if you will, rather than highly organized, centralized and regimented force.
Anyway, I don't think it matters a ton one way or the other. Again, it's all just marketing nonsense. If they brought Palpatine back, there's no reason why they couldn't, I dunno, infuse Rey's midichlorians with Skywalker chloriquantofaboonty or whatever and now, bim-bam-boom, she's REALLY a Skywalker. Maybe when you join the Skywalkers, you give up your surname and become "Han Skywalker" or whatever.
We've all remarked that the Sequel Trilogy seemed to lack a real sense of coherent vision, and I do fault the producers and Abrams for that. (Johnson less so because they could've said "No, Rian, you aren't allowed to do that." Plus I like his ideas a lot more than JJ's.) It ends up striking me as being about (1) a focus on marketability, and (2) fan service primarily focused around recreating the OT. And beyond that, there wasn't much vision. Probably some hastily thrown-together ideas, but otherwise....yeah, more about marketing.
And that'd be very smart unless and until they decide to push the timeline past where those characters are (e.g., a couple generations into the future).
cboath
Master Member
There was 8ish years between ROTJ and the beginning of the books of the EU...Heir to the Empire was what? 91?
cboath
Master Member
For crying out loud, we're talking TV/Movies here. We have 30 years of Luke's life missing in canon for all intents and purpose's. Nothing to stop any one making a new book, movie, or tv show from saying Luke had a kid in the past that no one knows about. Would be far from the first time a long lost relative shows up.
CT1138
Sr Member
I know people consider Heir to the Empire the start of the EU, but there was a ton of stuff that was produced concurrently to and after the OT that certainly fit the category. The radio dramas, novelizations, Marvel comic adaptations, the Holiday Special, the Ewok "movies" and then subsequent animated show, the Droids cartoon, etc, etc.
cboath
Master Member
I'm not saying do it, i'm saying they could do it.
cboath
Master Member
It did, but only because the story they chose to tell/make up along the way, had no attachment with what came before. With the PT, yeah, there's an obvious continuation when you end it with the good guys losing. Gotta pick back up and have the good guys back in the fight. When the good guys win at the end, with a resounding defeat, you better come up with something damn good if you want to continue it. They didn't.
Lets face it, the only reason this was 7-9 and not a new 1-3 is to force the OT cast in to sell tickets. No more, no less. there was nothing in this story that they were needed for, short of selling tickets.
Hell, if you want to bring back the emperor, just adapt dark empire. Push it down the road 20 years or so...leave han/leia alone as general's and the new crew is fighting the ground battles etc. I'm not saying it'd be great, but it'd be better than what we got and it would've had a singular story start to finish. No hard left turn in the middle followed by an overcorrecting harder right turn. But, 'what we got' is a low bar to overcome.
modelcitizen
Sr Member
bah. just put on your ben kenobi costume, pop some popcorn, turn your hasbro lightsaber on and watch palpatine's clone chew the scenery (alone in the dark).
It was a marketing move to bring back the OT cast. Pure and simple. I wasn't a fan of the Emperor's return in Dark Empire either, so I'm not sure it would have played out much better. It sucks but at least it's over for now. At least some fans care enough to preserve film history with the restoration efforts and I'm thankful for that.
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modelcitizen
Sr Member
wait...doesn't everybody do that? perhaps i've revealed too much then....
Solo4114
Master Member
From a marketing/business perspective, I get why they did it the way they did. But when I first heard about it, I thought "This is gonna be a mistake. They'll end up killing the old guys." And that's exactly what happened.
As I've said, I think it put them in an impossible position, or at least it dramatically increased the degree of difficulty. You had to (1) include the old actors who were still alive, but (2) provide the new cast the real hero's mantle, while (3) not letting the old characters look like chumps, and yet (4) also not letting them be so powerful that they'd hog the spotlight and the new heroes are an afterthought.
I think for non-fandom audiences, "Star Wars" was basically the OT heroes, and/or the PT heroes who are all dead and gone anyway by this time. So, they basically had to have the old crew if they were available. For the fandom, it's a split between peopel who fall into that former category, and people for whom it would've been better to just leave the past alone and fast forward like 3 generations into the future. I fall into the latter category. I'm ok with how they did certain aspects fo the ST, but I still think it would've made for a better story to be entirely divorced from the OT era. Like, 100% nothing to do with the OT or anything about it.
I think JJ is a weak storyteller who feels like he has to use the trappings of what was successful (white-clad stormtrooper types, black-clad red-sabre-wielding Sith/Dark Side types, a plucky resistance/rebellion fighting an evil empire, yadda yadda yadda). Like, he can't envision Star Wars without that.
I think Star Wars can be friggin' anything you want it to be, provided it has some really basic stuff and a spirit of adventure. I think the universe can evolve and grow and change. And I think if it doesn't, it will eventually stagnate and die.
The irony in all of this is the more risk averse Lucasfilm (or any studio for that matter) tries to be the more often they ruin the tent poles that made them successful in the first place.
They had a clean slate when they bought the company and considering that they threw out most of George's concepts for the scripts, save for a few elements, they could have started from scratch. It's not like it was mandatory for them to use the old cast or to have it directly tied to previous movies when you consider that they weren't obligated to use any of Lucas's ideas even though it was part of the agreement with the sale. Look at Star Trek. Each series of the TV show had its own cast, its own story lines, its own time period in which it took place, and very little in the way of crossover other than existing in the same shared universe.
What this tells us is that Lucasfilm willingly limited themselves creatively because it was easier to piggyback off the brand recognition of known characters than to venture out into the unknown with more talented writers and directors. Then they got themselves into the position you're describing where they were bound by the restrictions of balancing the old with the new.
All of this discussion is as Red Letter Media said in their prequel reviews is like a post mordem where we discuss it after the body has been discovered, only to try and figure out where things went wrong rather than the ENT crew trying to save it. At least that's my position on it.
Much of my frustration stems from the risk averse attitudes of Hollywood regarding these tent poles. I've often said that the best content recently has mostly come from streaming services who are willing to experiment by trusting capable new writers who are delivering new perspectives on old themes.
They had a clean slate when they bought the company and considering that they threw out most of George's concepts for the scripts, save for a few elements, they could have started from scratch. It's not like it was mandatory for them to use the old cast or to have it directly tied to previous movies when you consider that they weren't obligated to use any of Lucas's ideas even though it was part of the agreement with the sale. Look at Star Trek. Each series of the TV show had its own cast, its own story lines, its own time period in which it took place, and very little in the way of crossover other than existing in the same shared universe.
What this tells us is that Lucasfilm willingly limited themselves creatively because it was easier to piggyback off the brand recognition of known characters than to venture out into the unknown with more talented writers and directors. Then they got themselves into the position you're describing where they were bound by the restrictions of balancing the old with the new.
All of this discussion is as Red Letter Media said in their prequel reviews is like a post mordem where we discuss it after the body has been discovered, only to try and figure out where things went wrong rather than the ENT crew trying to save it. At least that's my position on it.
Much of my frustration stems from the risk averse attitudes of Hollywood regarding these tent poles. I've often said that the best content recently has mostly come from streaming services who are willing to experiment by trusting capable new writers who are delivering new perspectives on old themes.
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