Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[The Brahma Bull]

Though even in that case it still rendered Sauron as a non viable threat. So the point still stands. Even Tolkien thought better of the concept of bringing in another villain to continue the story, likely because it would undermine the struggles of his characters, so it only further proves my point.

At the least Snoke had the potential to be something different.

Not only Snoke. There was a nice theory about the most annoying character in the PT. That's a story, if done well, would be awesome. Instead it's like yeah Rian Johnson killed our main villian... what now? Oh, we just bring back the Palpy... we've ***ked up already, so who cares.

 

[The Brahma Bull]

ROS is a lesson taught: it's what happens when the backlash against something interesting and risky (TLJ) is so great that the studio has no choice but to return to the safe and familiar in an attempt to win back favor. Snoke will always be a missed opportunity, but I think keeping Kylo Ren as the apprentice and not the new ultimate Big Bad was an even worse decision on Lucasfilm's part. They tried something new and unexpected in TLJ, and it failed, so they returned to the safety of the familiar.

I never had the feeling they try something new. It was just "reverting expectations" with little to nothing left to pick up. And something new wasn't the point of the backlash. It simply was how poorly it was written and directed. This movie never knew where it was going. It was a mix of an agenda and "Got ya!" moments. TFA wasn't great but it set up a direction and some interesting characters. TLJ just lead every plot into a dead end and made interesting characters just goofy or annoying.

Sorry for double post.

 

[BTTUK]

Sauron also wouldn't have survived in any capacity had the ring been destroyed by Isildur. Which is why it works in context to that story because his existence is tied to the ring. The second the ring is gone Sauron is toast. That's where the story ends. It would be a different matter entirely, and therefore an equal comparison, if Sauron showed up again 30 years later and Aragon's protégé had to fight him off and kill him for good. But that didn't happen because Tolkien is actually a talented writer and Chris Terrio and JJ Abrams are simply not.

This is why I'm always referring to a stories internal logic. Violate the logic set forth in that story and you risk your audience being able to suspend their disbelief enough to buy into the premise of said story.

Palpatine had no such talisman ( or other plot device) to explain his survival. Having a villain return from the dead in a sci-fi or fantasy story does have precedence, even in Star Wars, but in this case it simply doesn't work. Just because on the surface it might feel right to have Palpatine be the one pulling the strings because it happened in the previous six films, doesn't automatically mean it makes any sense whatsoever in the chronological events unless there is a good reason for it to happen, and as we know no such answer was provided in the film.

No one is wrong for liking the creative choice, but it's not an honest response to say that it makes sense within the context of the film. Even most of the people here who enjoyed the movie have admitted to that. It's proof that there are objectifiable standards by which we critique art, otherwise every movie would be good and we all know that's simply not true. There are some real duds out there and concocting elaborate explanations to justify your love of a story choice is not the same thing as it actually being good, based on simple premises of logic that had been established in previous chapters of the story.

Otherwise we are debating feelings and the conversation devolves into saying asinine statements like,

"All art is subjective." It may be a true statement but it basically shuts down discussion because it's merely stating the obvious.

Oh yeah, I certainly agree about Palpatine's return, and how Sauron's in LOTR made far sense etc. I just wanted to inject a bit of whimsy by being pedantic

 

[Joek3rr]

In the LOTR example it was handled in a believable manner, which is part of what makes it so damn good. An object so infused with evil that it even corrupts the person who owns it, as well as the means to resurrect the dead Lord to whom it belongs? Freaking awesome! What an incredible plot device to drive a story.

Palpy was killed off in ROTJ in a way where there was no reason to question whether he survived. He was dead. Plain and simple. It's been like 20 years since I even thought about Dark Empire but to my vague recollection it was a younger clone of Palpy that came to fight Luke and company. Like I've said though, I was never very big on that series either. Mostly because it undercut the victory at the end of Jedi.

This movie though? There was no clear explanation in the movie for how he survived so to have him shoe horned into the last movie just to have a big bad to fight off is ridiculous when if you were to watch the films chronologically Palpy would just show up out of left field. And using a novel, comic, video game, cartoon, toy, trading card, cereal box, etc to fill in vital information because it's missing in your script is direct evidence that there is a FLAW in said script.

Purposefully omitting key information to create mystery is not the sign of a talented director, but the fingerprints of a master manipulator who tricks audiences by giving them the impression that what they witnessed was somehow better than it actually was. JJ, as Solo4114 has so eloquently stated through the years, is a master of this technique. If you loved it that's perfectly fine, but a more honest response would be to acknowledge that you could see the issues with the story, even if you ultimately liked it. Being a writer I can't overlook glaring issues that take me right out of the story. Especially when it's one I'm so attached to. Other people are willing to overlook things like that. I'm not. At least not with these characters.

Because getting chucked down pit means you can't return......

Obi-Wan - cut in half - yet comes back
Yoda - dies of a illness - comes back
Anakin - fatally wounded, body is cremated - still comes back
Qui-Gon - stabbed through the chest, body is cremated - can still talk to the living
Palpatine - falls down a pit with a mysterious release of energy - but yeah for some reason he's gone for good.............

But it is explained how he came back. Not survived, but returned. (That is an important distinction, Palpatine died, he did not survive) The Dark Side is a pathway to many abilities that some consider to be unnatural. In this case the ability that his master had learned, to cheat death. Now is it a detailed explanation. No. But in Star Wars we don't even know why certain Jedi become Force ghosts, unless you dive into extra material.

I mean there's only two options. A) his body was recovered. B) he's a clone. Either way his spirit is inhabiting a corpse. But we can know it's a clone. He straight up says to the Sith cultists (that have cloning tech) "look at what you have made" as references his new rejuvenated form.

But I will agree with on LOTR. It does a better job. But then again Tolkien fleshes it the details of his universe. George, and subsequent film makers, not so much.

 

[Psab keel]

That's why I responded to your initial post as with a laughing emoji.

 

[cboath]

Again that's a false equivalency. Palpatine doesn't appear as an apparition but as a corporeal being.

He doesn't show as a ghost in ROTJ either because he has no connection to Luke. It's Luke's Father whom he just 'saved', Ben his mentor, and yoda, his teacher. It's also supposedly a light side ability.

 

[Psab keel]

Because getting chucked down pit means you can't return......

Obi-Wan - cut in half - yet comes back
Yoda - dies of a illness - comes back
Anakin - fatally wounded, body is cremated - still comes back
Qui-Gon - stabbed through the chest, body is cremated - can still talk to the living
Palpatine - falls down a pit with a mysterious release of energy - but yeah for some reason he's gone for good.............

But it is explained how he came back. Not survived, but returned. (That is an important distinction, Palpatine died, he did not survive) The Dark Side is a pathway to many abilities that some consider to be unnatural. In this case the ability that his master had learned, to cheat death. Now is it a detailed explanation. No. But in Star Wars we don't even know why certain Jedi become Force ghosts, unless you dive into extra material.

I mean there's only two options. A) his body was recovered. B) he's a clone. Either way his spirit is inhabiting a corpse. But we can know it's a clone. He straight up says to the Sith cultists (that have cloning tech) "look at what you have made" as references his new rejuvenated form.

But I will agree with on LOTR. It does a better job. But then again Tolkien fleshes it the details of his universe. George, and subsequent film makers, not so much.

Obi-Wan- returns as a ghost
Yoda- ghost
Anakin- ghost
Qui-Gon- disembodied voice
Palpatine- as a corporeal being that can be killed again.

That's the difference there and it's a big one.

 

[Joek3rr]

Obi-Wan- returns as a ghost
Yoda- ghost
Anakin- ghost
Qui-Gon- disembodied voice
Palpatine- as a corporeal being that can be killed again.

That's the difference there and it's a big one.

And, that's a good difference. The idea that the Sith can achieve a sort everlasting "life." But its a twisted, perverted, unnatural version of what the Jedi can do. I think that's so intriguing.

 

[Psab keel]

I don't take issue with you liking the idea. It just doesn't make any sense because it was never explained in the movie. Another member here mentioned showing a 30 second scene where he broke his fall and escaped the Death Star before it blew up would have sufficed. It would be stupid beyond belief but it would have at the least shown how his survival was possible.

 

[cboath]

Because getting chucked down pit means you can't return......

Obi-Wan - cut in half - yet comes back
Yoda - dies of a illness - comes back
Anakin - fatally wounded, body is cremated - still comes back
Qui-Gon - stabbed through the chest, body is cremated - can still talk to the living
Palpatine - falls down a pit with a mysterious release of energy - but yeah for some reason he's gone for good.............

But it is explained how he came back. Not survived, but returned. (That is an important distinction, Palpatine died, he did not survive) The Dark Side is a pathway to many abilities that some consider to be unnatural. In this case the ability that his master had learned, to cheat death. Now is it a detailed explanation. No. But in Star Wars we don't even know why certain Jedi become Force ghosts, unless you dive into extra material.

I mean there's only two options. A) his body was recovered. B) he's a clone. Either way his spirit is inhabiting a corpse. But we can know it's a clone. He straight up says to the Sith cultists (that have cloning tech) "look at what you have made" as references his new rejuvenated form.

But I will agree with on LOTR. It does a better job. But then again Tolkien fleshes it the details of his universe. George, and subsequent film makers, not so much.

All those came back in spirit form. And none of those ghosts, returned for more than 10 minutes of chat time either. 3/4 come back to help guide luke, palpatine isn't a ghost he moved to a whole other body (something we've not known to be possible in universe) out of left field in a knee jerk reaction to a bad flick. Palps comes back as a corporeal being - out of left field. With the power to suck the soul out of a living body and inhabit it if they kill him..

You're comparing apples and orangutans here.

 

[cboath]

I don't take issue with you liking the idea. It just doesn't make any sense because it was never explained in the movie. Another member here mentioned showing a 30 second scene where he broke his fall and escaped the Death Star before it blew up would have sufficed. It would be stupid beyond belief but it would have at the least shown how his survival was possible.

Honestly, i don't think that would have sufficed. It'd be a massive retcon. ROTJ was the final capstone. There was no plan for more, period. Personally, i don't think GL starting up treatments for 7-9 was just because he wanted it. Either Disney asked for it, or it was done as a sale enticement. "Not only do you get the keys to the castle, but you get the masters plans for expansion!"

In the 90's when asked about sequels, he says that ROTJ was it, if he were to do more it'd be 'so,,uh, what do i have luke do now?'

That retcon only works if it's down 2010's style with an after the credits scene in ROTJ showing just that - him getting out paving the way for another installment.

Luke having a secret kid is not a good die, but it's imminently more plausible that what RoS was. So, too, would be Han/Leia having another kid and hiding it from Kylo because they feared he'd be after it. Padme didn't actually die, but it was just a way to protect her kids and work against 'anny', etc. With what they did with RoS, ALL that is now completely fair game.

Oh, and Ben's not dead. He didn't die, he just passed out from exhaustion. I mean, we didn't seem him vanish or get burned up or anything as i recall.

 

[CT1138]

And, that's a good difference. The idea that the Sith can achieve a sort everlasting "life." But its a twisted, perverted, unnatural version of what the Jedi can do. I think that's so intriguing.

I agree, it's intriguing because it presents this real-world parallel: the idea of spiritual immortality vs physical immortality. Some religions in this world, going as far back as Egyptian antiquity, believed in a spiritual afterlife, and that one can gain the ability to retain their consciousness after corporeal death and thus, through their religious spirituality, attain a form of immortality. This is what the Jedi believe: that through attunement with The Force, a Jedi retains their consciousness as a spiritual part of the Force, and thus immortality.

Other religions believe in living for the now, that there is nothing after death, and therefore you should be a good person for its own sake, as you don't get a second chance at living. In a Sith's twisted POV, this means attempting to keep the body alive as long as possible. Sith don't get to become one with the Force, and therefore believe that living in a corporeal body for as long as possible is their form of immortality.

That, in effect, exposes the root difference of how the Jedi and the Sith use the Force. The Jedi believe in becoming attuned with the Force, letting its will guide their actions. They believe in self-preservation, but not at the expense of the whole. They will readily join with the Force, if that means saving many innocents. They are selfless, thinking only of others. The Sith believe the Force needs to be bent to their will. The Sith believe that to "master" the Force, you need to go beyond simply "using" it, but to make the Force do the Sith's bidding. The Jedi see the Force as an instruction manual, the Sith see it as a hammer, and that hammer is there for their personal use, to shape the Galaxy to be how they want it to be. The Sith are in that effect selfish. They care only about what they want, not thinking of what the Galaxy as a whole needs. To them the want of the one or few outweighs the needs of the many.

Now, I'm sure the Daoist/"Grey Jedi" would argue that without both the manual and the hammer, nothing would be constructed. Sadly, the SW movies have never really went here, as LucasFilm under both Lucas and Kennedy has always taken an absolutist black and white view of the Jedi and the Sith. There is only good or evil, not yin and yang. The animated series like TCW and Rebels have begun to move the franchise into this territory, but sadly the movies have refrained from it.

 

[Psab keel]

Honestly, i don't think that would have sufficed. It'd be a massive retcon. ROTJ was the final capstone. There was no plan for more, period. Personally, i don't think GL starting up treatments for 7-9 was just because he wanted it. Either Disney asked for it, or it was done as a sale enticement. "Not only do you get the keys to the castle, but you get the masters plans for expansion!"

In the 90's when asked about sequels, he says that ROTJ was it, if he were to do more it'd be 'so,,uh, what do i have luke do now?'

That retcon only works if it's down 2010's style with an after the credits scene in ROTJ showing just that - him getting out paving the way for another installment.

Luke having a secret kid is not a good die, but it's imminently more plausible that what RoS was. So, too, would be Han/Leia having another kid and hiding it from Kylo because they feared he'd be after it. Padme didn't actually die, but it was just a way to protect her kids and work against 'anny', etc. With what they did with RoS, ALL that is now completely fair game.

Oh, and Ben's not dead. He didn't die, he just passed out from exhaustion. I mean, we didn't seem him vanish or get burned up or anything as i recall.

That's why I said it was a stupid idea. I'm not one for doing anything with the OT cast after Return of the Jedi as it was a perfect ending in my book, but for the sake of argument a retconn like showing Palpy's survival and escape from the Death Star 2 would at the very least give some justification (albeit an idiotic one) for his return in episode 9. Bringing him back was done out of desperation, not because it made any sense to the story.

 

[cboath]

Very true. Except i'll add they could have done things with the OT cast post ROTJ, it just can't be the SAME thing. It would have to be a new threat. It's why I wasn't a big fan of the FO. Whiny losers of the empire regrouping with the same basic outifts and ships. It didn't bring anything new and made desperate attempts to try and join everything together which don't work.

 

[Joek3rr]

All those came back in spirit form. And none of those ghosts, returned for more than 10 minutes of chat time either. 3/4 come back to help guide luke, palpatine isn't a ghost he moved to a whole other body (something we've not known to be possible in universe) out of left field in a knee jerk reaction to a bad flick. Palps comes back as a corporeal being - out of left field. With the power to suck the soul out of a living body and inhabit it if they kill him..

You're comparing apples and orangutans here.

Nevertheless it still sets precedent. Just because a person dies, doesn't necessarily mean they're gone for good. They can appear in some form or fashion later.

 

[Joek3rr]

Honestly, i don't think that would have sufficed. It'd be a massive retcon. ROTJ was the final capstone. There was no plan for more, period. Personally, i don't think GL starting up treatments for 7-9 was just because he wanted it. Either Disney asked for it, or it was done as a sale enticement. "Not only do you get the keys to the castle, but you get the masters plans for expansion!"

In the 90's when asked about sequels, he says that ROTJ was it, if he were to do more it'd be 'so,,uh, what do i have luke do now?'

That retcon only works if it's down 2010's style with an after the credits scene in ROTJ showing just that - him getting out paving the way for another installment.

Luke having a secret kid is not a good die, but it's imminently more plausible that what RoS was. So, too, would be Han/Leia having another kid and hiding it from Kylo because they feared he'd be after it. Padme didn't actually die, but it was just a way to protect her kids and work against 'anny', etc. With what they did with RoS, ALL that is now completely fair game.

Oh, and Ben's not dead. He didn't die, he just passed out from exhaustion. I mean, we didn't seem him vanish or get burned up or anything as i recall.

Actually in the 90's Spielberg was still saying that George doing the Sequels. I think the last time George said he was going to do the Sequels was 2002.

 

[Joek3rr]

That's why I said it was a stupid idea. I'm not one for doing anything with the OT cast after Return of the Jedi as it was a perfect ending in my book, but for the sake of argument a retconn like showing Palpy's survival and escape from the Death Star 2 would at the very least give some justification (albeit an idiotic one) for his return in episode 9. Bringing him back was done out of desperation, not because it made any sense to the story.

He didn't survive though.... he died. But he sent his spirit into a clone........okay you want Palpatine "escaping?" Here you go.

 

[Psab keel]

Where in the movie did he send his spirit into a clone? Where in the movie do they even say that's what happened? Those images don't show anything other than some light effects, one of which looks like it's from Clone Wars and not one of the movies.

What I actually want is for the Emperor to be dead at the end of Return of the Jedi. That was a better ending. But you know, here we are.

 

[cboath]

Nevertheless it still sets precedent. Just because a person dies, doesn't necessarily mean they're gone for good. They can appear in some form or fashion later.

The precedent that was set was that they can come back in an extremely limited capacity. Not, corporeally in full strength or stronger form. We don't see any of those characters coming back and manipulating squat until the ST.

 

[CT1138]

Where in the movie did he send his spirit into a clone? Where in the movie do they even say that's what happened? Those images don't show anything other than some light effects, one of which looks like it's from Clone Wars and not one of the movies.

"Dark science, cloning, secrets only the Sith knew."