Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[Jaitea]

Hmmmm but in ROTJ Luke says he has a promise to an old friend. Which is meant to be his promise in ESB to return. Yes?

Yep.....true.....as I said head-canon, apart for that one line,....it connects up.....or......if he had to leave before his training was complete to go on the rescue mission,....then returning after freeing Han in RotJ,.....he would be keeping his promise.....dunno....grasping at straws

J

 

[HeartBlade]

Sauron is very much like Palpatine. Consistently rebuilding, manipulating things from the shadows. Using his allies and top lieutenants to continue the fighting even after he's been defeated.

I think I came up with the LotR analogy and so wanted to clarify the point. My issue isn’t that Sauron hasnt schemed in the past but that:

1) bringing back Sauron as the big bad is lazy when there are other potential stories (it was this thinking that inspired ASOIAF/GOT)

2) saying Sauron can come back because he had hidden another ring of power somewhere cheapens the gravity of the story.

From my understanding Sauron dies fully or at least can no longer come back once the ring is destroyed, hence why it is of upmost importance to destroy the ring in Mt Doom and not just guard it forever or hide it. the journey is perilous but it’s for a cause worth fighting and dying for.

if there is a surprise second ring so Sauron can come back, the first feeling is naturally so why did they take such a big risk? Shouldn’t they first find all the rings of power before destroying them? Why didn’t Sauron go for the others if they were available?

the second, and far worse, is so what is stopping Sauron from coming back again in the future? What if there is a hidden third ring, fourth, etc.

This is what is most frustrating about the ST imo. In bringing back Palpatine, Vader’s sacrifice and destiny seems cheapened (is he really the one, he didn’t destroy the Sith).

what’s worse is Rey doesn’t do anything notably different to kill Palpatine. She reflects his lightning back with 2 sabers and he dies. This doesn’t seem much different from throwing him down a shaft while he also electrocuted himself and Vader. What is stopping Palpatine from coming back again. I would argue actually Star Wars needs to continue since Palpatine has clearly not been finished off.

off topic a little, I agree calling Rose “Shrek” is also implying something about her looks or at least can be taken that way and should not have been done. He could have easily called her Elsa, Bambi, Mickey Mouse to convey the same meaning without inferring Tran was ugly (which is one of Shrek’s character traits)

 

[Joek3rr]

sure you could say Luke’s training is a joke since it did go by quick on screen without a montage but he did still train and despite that training, he is toyed with by Vader.

it’s implied he trained a lot with the sole purpose of defeating Vader for RotJ so was more prepared. He was faring better but still not strong enough/kind of getting his butt kicked until he tapped into his rage to overwhelm Vader with strikes. I also think Vader was holding back due to several factors:
1) he knows Luke is is son for sure and that feeling has begun to stir hesitance in him to kill.
2) it’s implied Palpatine ordered him not to kill Luke (so Luke can replace him as his new apprentice).
3) he is freaking old. Vader is in his 50s at least and the force in the OT wasn’t was it was in the prequels. Force pushing/flashy combat wasn’t much of a thing so its implied that in a lightsaber battle, youth and stamina are still relevant to fights

I think It makes the Vader removing his mask reveal that much more effective. It both humanizes Vader but also shows significant weakness, that under all that black intimidating armor he is a crippled old man.

now the prequels do seem to alter this (Yoda and Sidious are jumping around despite being much older than Vader due to the force and Dooku is quite spry) but stamina and physical prowess are still factors in a fight (one of the reasons why Qui Gon lost to Maul was age and stamina while Obi Wan and Anakin show Obi wan being out of breath despite being on the defensive the entire time)

And that's the problem, we never see him even train with lightsaber, when he's with Yoda. We assume he did. But that irrelevant, be he gets beat by Vader.

My issue is with the period between ESB and ROTJ. He's suddenly become such a proficient swordsman. We again are left assuming he had training. But with what or whom, we do not know.

And I mean Luke has become a very good swordsman. Every time Luke fights Vader in ROTJ, save one, Vader is in retreat. And the one time Luke isn't wanting to fight, so he's backing up, playing it defensive.

But one thing I disagree with though. And that's the idea that Vader doesn't want to kill Luke. Vader shows no hesitation at the notion of killing his son.
"I will not turn and you'll be forced to kill me."
"If that is your destiny."

"You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before. I don't believe you'll destroy me now."
"You underestimate the power of the dark side. If you will not fight then you will meet your destiny."
This is followed by Vader throwing his lightsaber at his son, trying to kill him.

Anyways that just how I see that scene.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

what’s worse is Rey doesn’t do anything notably different to kill Palpatine. She reflects his lightning back with 2 sabers and he dies.

This was one of the bigger things I had an issue with in TROS, and I’m not sure anyone’s really mentioned it until now. I mean, doesn’t Palpatine remember how he got all wrinkly-faced and deep-voiced in the first place?

Doesn’t his force lightning have an off switch? I don’t know what he was thinking. In my head I kept hearing Han yelling, “Turn it off! Turn it off!”

 

[ConvergencePro]

This was one of the bigger things I had an issue with in TROS, and I’m not sure anyone’s really mentioned it until now. I mean, doesn’t Palpatine remember how he got all wrinkly-faced and deep-voiced in the first place?

Doesn’t his force lightning have an off switch? I don’t know what he was thinking. In my head I kept hearing Han yelling, “Turn it off! Turn it off!”

It’s like when you’re taking a piss and suddenly have to stop the flow but can’t I guess

 

[Paul Andrew]

Regarding Rey’s former experience, it may have made more sense if she was using a sword all her life but it was a staff which is a different type of weapon with a different stance. Sure there is some cross-over skills but saying she would be equally proficient is like saying a boxer would be able to trade blows with a fencer despite it being the first time picking up a sword because he had prior boxing experience

Or like saying that piloting a t16 skyhopper in atmo and blasting womprats is going to make you proficient enough to pilot an X-Wing Starfighter during the hairiest assault the rebellion had yet seen and bullseye a 2 meter exhaust port.

 

[Mr Webber]

100? Yeah now I know he's off his rocker. Nearly every film has got a few. And every franchise has got a handful.

In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.Such inconsistencies include things as illogical, unlikely or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. The term is more loosely also applied to "loose ends" in a plot – side-lined story elements that remain unresolved by the end of the plot.

I'm going to state this right now. The lack of a detailed exposition, is not a plot hole.

Some examples. Shields, sometimes ships can fly through, sometimes they can't. But that's minor. Snowspeeder blowing up an AT-AT, wait I thought the armor was too thick for their blasters? Suddenly all the ISD don't have tractor beams, and they can't catch one little ship. Seriously? And a only a minor one. But why heck doesn't everyone use ion weapons, those things are powerful!

You can try and play semantics till the cows come home but the video in question and I could list another 5 different ones more than eloquently highlight just how pathetic, moronic and utterly ridiculous the series of events play out in TRoS. Watch the video and highlight incorrect observations with counter points and I might take you seriously.

The one piece of exposition the world let alone this forum is asking for, despite one member actually stating that it isnt important to the plot, cant be explained because it cant be explained.

In regards to the snowspeeder and the AT AT, it managed to destroy it after it was brought down with a crashing thud, you can even see the entire framework of it shudder when it hit the ground. Are you actually telling me that it wasnt compromised in some fashion after that? I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to tractor beams and how they relate to the OT? Exactly in what context are you suggesting that everyone use Ion cannons? The one time we see them in the OT they were perfectly implemented for the scene it was in. As you can see, they are a purely land based weapon.

Not for the first time you have tried to use examples from the OT to lessen the impact of utterly ***** plot holes from the ST and once again you have utterly failed. And I see that in the time I typed and posted this, others seem to follow blindly in your footsteps.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

The one piece of exposition the world let alone this forum is asking for, despite one member actually stating that it isnt important to the plot, cant be explained because it cant be explained.

Wait, what are we talking about here, exactly? The Emperor being back?

 

[Mr Webber]

Wait, what are we talking about here, exactly? The Emperor being back?

Let me think for a minute......YEAH that one.

At least we are off the trend of some members who loved TRoS posting videos and detailed explanations on how the person who made it is famous for bad storytelling and not understanding what reasonable exposition is coz that was getting kind of awkward.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

Let me think for a minute......YEAH that one.

Alright.

I’ll need to wait for the disc for exact quotes of everything but from memory, this is explained by not one but two different characters.

We have the emperor himself saying he has “been dead before” and that “the dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities...” We also have Merry the Hobbit mentioning “dark science, cloning, secrets only the Sith knew.” These both seem like explanations.

You can not like the explanation that is given, if you want.

But it’s not a plot hole, not when people in the movie say what happened, and we see evidence that supports what they say (the “test tube Snokes” that Mauler apparently also took issue with.)

It’s not like cloning is a brand new concept in the franchise. The “Clone Wars” was something mentioned in the very first film. Nor is the idea of dark side/Sith abilities relating to both keeping people from dying.

 

[Mr Webber]

Alright.

I’ll need to wait for the disc for exact quotes of everything but from memory, this is explained by not one but two different characters.

We have the emperor himself saying he has “been dead before” and that “the dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities...” We also have Merry the Hobbit mentioning “dark science, cloning, secrets only the Sith knew.” These both seem like explanations.

You can not like the explanation that is given, if you want.

But it’s not a plot hole, not when people in the movie say what happened, and we see evidence that supports what they say (the “test tube Snokes” that Mauler apparently also took issue with.)

It’s not like cloning is a brand new concept in the franchise. The “Clone Wars” was something mentioned in the very first film. Nor is the idea of dark side/Sith abilities relating to both keeping people from dying.

I`ll give the same reply I gave last night. That line from ROTS was written only for the ROTS and the scenarios related to ROTS. It was lifted out by a creatively bankrupt writing team to use as a crutch for their lack of imagination. The man who wrote that line has stated many times that Palpatine is dead and his arc complete. The man who played the role has stated that he was only contacted to re visit the role a year ago.

Mauler was spot on about Snoke. If you can just clone heavy duty force users then why not just make an army of them. Explain to me where the cloning of force abilities is ever a thing especially in the only area that counts, the movies let alone some DLC fluff like a cartoon. The test tube Snokes were in response to a certain round headed hack that took the selfish step of removing him from a conclusion. Enter Palpatine.

 

[Jaitea]

I agree with Dave Stewart in this video,....while some love the new Disney Star Wars (& good for them), I feel badly let down with the Sequel Trilogy, I see it as a huge missed oportunity

But now that it's done I see it as Fan Fiction, because thats really what it is, just because they own it, doesn't mean they can understand it or create it

Please do watch this

J

 

[Paul Andrew]

I`ll give the same reply I gave last night. That line from ROTS was written only for the ROTS and the scenarios related to ROTS. It was lifted out by a creatively bankrupt writing team to use as a crutch for their lack of imagination. The man who wrote that line has stated many times that Palpatine is dead and his arc complete. The man who played the role has stated that he was only contacted to re visit the role a year ago.

This is like saying Leia isn't really Luke's sister because she wasn't written that way originally. The series has always built and expanded on what came before.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

Like I said, people can like the explanation given, or not. But not liking it doesn’t mean there is no explanation.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to as far as people writing the lines in ROTS, and what they meant, etc. I’m just going by what was actually stated in the movies, and the associated events. I don’t know how a subjective assessment that the writer of ROTS was creatively lacking affects what was said and what occurred in the movies themselves. I also don’t know how the amount of time McDiarmid was aware of his recurring relates to whether his reintroduction was explained within the movie itself.

As for an army of Snoke clones, judging by what we see on-screen, the cloning operation on Exogul pales in comparison to what was going on on Kamino in the prequels. I didn’t see thousands of Snoke clones, I think there were about 3 in the tubes?

And even if they made a bunch somehow, AOTC specifically describes how the Kaminoans modified the genetic code of the clone army to be more docile and to grow faster. I would imagine that an army of Snokes would also need to be made more docile and more prone to taking orders than the original. Would the comparatively small operation on Exogul be able to do that? And if so, would modifying genetic code also mess with the force abilities/midi-chlorians of the clones? (Yep, the dreaded midi-chlorians. Canon, sadly. I hate it too, but as it exists, and we’re talking about genetic manipulation, it’s unfortunately relevant.) Maybe it would. And based on the “botched Snoke clones” we see, it seems like the crew on Exogul haven’t quite worked out all the kinks yet.

As for whether cloning of force users specifically would work, we have to look at midi-chlorians again. They’re present inside the cells of all living things, so they’d be present in the clones. Would they have the same levels as the original? If the cells were the same, I imagine they would, yes.

Now, I think it’s VERY likely that a lot of people here will turn and run at the mention of the dreaded M-word , but despite not being mentioned in the ST, they’re still a thing and can’t really be undone (except for maybe with Special Editions of the prequels? We can hope.)

 

[Captain Dunsel]

This movie is soooooooooooo “2019” now....

We should move on, at this point. It’s like we are all still wearing Christmas sweaters in January.

 

[Mr Webber]

This is like saying Leia isn't really Luke's sister because she wasn't written that way originally. The series has always built and expanded on what came before.

No, its nothing like that at all.

There is already a member who endlessly tries to use early ideas that were never realized in the final product as some kind of justification or explanation for inconsistencies in the Disney trilogy and frankly its tiresome and redundant at the very least. Until recently, everything thats been built on and expanded upon has been done so carefully, thoughtfully and above all reasonably. I`ve yet to see one properly explained or valid reason posted here or anywhere else to doubt that.

 

[edge10]

I agree with Dave Stewart in this video,....while some love the new Disney Star Wars (& good for them), I feel badly let down with the Sequel Trilogy, I see it as a huge missed oportunity

But now that it's done I see it as Fan Fiction, because thats really what it is, just because they own it, doesn't mean they can understand it or create it

Please do watch this

J

Makes sense. Only a cruddy fan fiction would bring back a character, that the creator said is dead.

 

[ConvergencePro]

 

[Mr Webber]

Now, I think it’s VERY likely that a lot of people here will turn and run at the mention of the dreaded M-word , but despite not being mentioned in the ST, they’re still a thing and can’t really be undone (except for maybe with Special Editions of the prequels? We can hope.)

The best thing that could have ever happened to the PT is the Disney trilogy. I will never call it the ST because this is in no way shape or form a series of movies that follows on from the events of ROTJ. We have gone from a carefully nurtured story to a series basically full of Dr Manhattans. It is an abomination that is only linked to the majesty of Star Wars via a signed contract.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

The best thing that could have ever happened to the PT is the Disney trilogy. I will never call it the ST because this is in no way shape or form a series of movies that follows on from the events of ROTJ. We have gone from a carefully nurtured story to a series basically full of Dr Manhattans. It is an abomination that is only linked to the majesty of Star Wars via a signed contract.

You’re free to call the Sequel Trilogy whatever you’d like. I won’t argue otherwise.

...but they still exist.