Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[Joek3rr]

Th


Luke has training and was fueled by the rage from the threat to his sister’s life, namely that she would be turned to the dark side. He was losing pretty badly before then against a 50 year old man.

Luke also gets annihilated instantly by Palpatine and can literally only beg his father for help, showing that Star Wars doesn’t always go good guys win at the end guaranteed.

the thing is Star Wars has also focused on skill over raw talent in past fights as well. Sure there were flukes like Obi wan beating Maul in episode 1 but Dooku made easy work of both Obi Wan and Anakin despite Anakin being the chosen one. The more skillful and powerful Anakin also lost to Obi wan in episode 3 due to his arrogance and underestimating the high ground way.

But Star Wars in the past has not shied away from skill triumphing talent and the good guys not always being strong enough to defeat evil.

Luke's training is a joke. A few minutes with Obi-Wan. A little bit between the movies. Possibly some with Yoda. And he gets his butt kick. Then all of a sudden Luke Skywalker becomes a lightsaber expert. And is able keep Darth Vader, someone who's been using a lightsaber for 31 to 33 years, on defensive the whole time. That is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Joek3rr]

The Mauler video lists at least 100 plot holes in this ***** show over two hours and this is only Part 1. If you can list only 10 plot holes or things that make the OT messy when compared to any of the Disney trilogy that haven't already been listed and shot down just in this thread, I will reconsider that statement being the most ridiculous one I`ve read regarding this whole Disney trilogy so far.

ADDITION. For those who dont want to watch a 2 hour video, skip to the last 20 minutes where he basically provides an abridged version. It might save a lot of future typing.

100? Yeah now I know he's off his rocker. Nearly every film has got a few. And every franchise has got a handful.

In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.Such inconsistencies include things as illogical, unlikely or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. The term is more loosely also applied to "loose ends" in a plot – side-lined story elements that remain unresolved by the end of the plot.

I'm going to state this right now. The lack of a detailed exposition, is not a plot hole.

Some examples. Shields, sometimes ships can fly through, sometimes they can't. But that's minor. Snowspeeder blowing up an AT-AT, wait I thought the armor was too thick for their blasters? Suddenly all the ISD don't have tractor beams, and they can't catch one little ship. Seriously? And a only a minor one. But why heck doesn't everyone use ion weapons, those things are powerful!

 

[Paul Andrew]

Star Wars has been asking us to make believe since the start. Laser swords and space magic, guys. It's not rocket science and applying hard rules to what can and can't happen in one of these films is a bad idea.

 

[Ron]

The thing is when we the audience first entered the universe of Star Wars in ANH, we had no frame of reference to the state of the galaxy or who the characters were. How the Empire and its Emperor (or the Rebellion for that matter) came to be or how the characters arrived to where they are at is irrelevant to us. However, after six movies worth of reference and having last seen our heroes standing victorious and the Empire and the Emperor defeated only for them to seemingly rise again and reset everything raises some justified questions that need answers.

The best analogy I've read, and I think it was one of us here that made it, it would be like Sauron returning with a new ring and a new army out of nowhere. You don't think anyone who read LOTR would expect an explanation as to how that could possibly happen?

If TFA was the first movie in the series, then it wouldn't be a problem, or at least less of a problem. But it's not. It's part 7. It can't just gloss over the state of the galaxy being turned upside down from when we last saw it.

The only thing that changed was your investment in the universe.

Exactly my point.

 

[Ron]

Luke's training is a joke. A few minutes with Obi-Wan. A little bit between the movies. Possibly some with Yoda. And he gets his butt kick. Then all of a sudden Luke Skywalker becomes a lightsaber expert. And is able keep Darth Vader, someone who's been using a lightsaber for 31 to 33 years, on defensive the whole time. That is absolutely ridiculous.

Pick any sport and I can find you an example of a rookie who lost his first time competing but within a short time span became dominant.

 

[Paul Andrew]

The thing is when we the audience first entered the universe of Star Wars in ANH, we had no frame of reference to the state of the galaxy or who the characters were. How the Empire and its Emperor (or the Rebellion for that matter) came to be or how the characters arrived to where they are at is irrelevant to us. However, after six movies worth of reference and having last seen our heroes standing victorious and the Empire and the Emperor defeated only for them to seemingly rise again and reset everything raises some justified questions that need answers.

The best analogy I've read, and I think it was one of us here that made it, it would be like Sauron returning with a new ring and a new army out of nowhere. You don't think anyone who read LOTR would expect an explanation as to how that could possibly happen?

If TFA was the first movie in the series, then it wouldn't be a problem, or at least less of a problem. But it's not. It's part 7. It can't just gloss over the state of the galaxy being turned upside down from when we last saw it.


Exactly my point.

You're not wrong, but these movies aren't just for us uberfans. We're sold on Star Wars already, as far as the suits are concerned. They know, or assume, that when we want the details we'll go to novels or comics, and give them yet more of our dollars. Expecting them to reverse course and give us all the details we crave in the movies was never going to happen.
The supplemental material has always filled in the holes, so to speak. It may be a weakness of the varied writing teams, but it's a staple of the series at this point that you get dropped in the middle of things without much setup or backstory. There are as many throwaway lines in TFA about the New Republic and the First Order as there are about the Old Republic in ANH, if not more.
I just don't get the frustration, these films have given us as much to go on as they ever have, which is to say, not much. Enjoy the ride.

 

[Joek3rr]

Pick any sport and I can find you an example of a rookie who lost his first time competing but within a short time span became dominant.

But this isn't a sport though......

 

[Ron]

But this isn't a sport though......

Sure it is. Fencing? You could include any fighting sport as an example if you want. I mean Luke certainly advanced at a remarkable rate, you're right. But I don't think it's that unbelievable.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

So, I listened to a little more of the Mauler video on my way in to work, and made it about 30 mins through. And... none of these points are plot holes? It’s literally a series of nitpicks, beginning with the first three words of the opening title crawl. “The dead speak!” ...is that a plot hole? It’s like watching the movie with a guy who insists on commenting on every single thing that happens. And he hates all of it.

He makes a ton of assumptions (how long it takes to get places- see my previous post about how what we see on screen isn’t ever said to be real-time, what the extent of the message transferred to R2 was, how long the first order spy has been active, etc). He assumes that the Supreme Leader of the first order... picked up all the pieces of his broken helmet in order to have them put back together? ...ok? If we’re making assumptions I’m gonna assume Ren has “a guy” who he could order to go and do that.

He complains about the Wayfinders and about the explanation given in the movie that you need one to navigate to Exogul. Is this a plot hole? No, like them or not, the Wayfinders are the opposite of a plot hole. They explain things. You don’t like the explanation? Fine, but that in no way means there isn’t one.

He complains about Ren grabbing Rey’s necklace, while simultaneously mentioning the water and Han’s dice from the previous movies. “What are the limits?“ he asks. Good question. What are the limits on any force powers in any of the movies? We see Luke in training struggling to lift an x-wing. And that’s... that’s about it? The limits of the force have always been poorly defined, and that has to change now? Really?

He complains a lot about “what are the odds of this?” Or about how things seem highly unlikely, or are coincidences. Uh, ok. “3720 to 1,” anyone? “725 to 1,” does that ring a bell?

Fact is, it’s easy to pick apart TROS like this. It’s easy to pick apart any movie like this. YouTube is full of this stuff. But let’s not pretend this is some comprehensive, exhaustive analysis of the movie.

 

[HMSwolfe]

The big difference is that the OT is character driven—following Luke’s development and path to becoming a Jedi. Plot contrivances don’t seem as important because they’re typically not the focus. With the ST, it’s decidedly plot-oriented. Things happen and the characters happen to be there. That’s why Rey wins at everything—she isn’t a character, just a device for the plot to happen. That’s why the plot contrivances stick out to those of us that dislike TROS—the trilogy focuses in on the part with the most holes, the plot.

 

[Kylash]

Yeah I had to stop when he started refering to Rose as "Shrek", which i assume was some kind of remark about her appearance.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

The big difference is that the OT is character driven... with the ST, it’s decidedly plot-oriented

Interesting question for you then would be: do you think this was a conscious choice as far as the ST is concerned? Or do you think that the characters just weren’t developed enough to stand on their own?

 

[Joek3rr]

The thing is when we the audience first entered the universe of Star Wars in ANH, we had no frame of reference to the state of the galaxy or who the characters were. How the Empire and its Emperor (or the Rebellion for that matter) came to be or how the characters arrived to where they are at is irrelevant to us. However, after six movies worth of reference and having last seen our heroes standing victorious and the Empire and the Emperor defeated only for them to seemingly rise again and reset everything raises some justified questions that need answers.

The best analogy I've read, and I think it was one of us here that made it, it would be like Sauron returning with a new ring and a new army out of nowhere. You don't think anyone who read LOTR would expect an explanation as to how that could possibly happen?

If TFA was the first movie in the series, then it wouldn't be a problem, or at least less of a problem. But it's not. It's part 7. It can't just gloss over the state of the galaxy being turned upside down from when we last saw it.


Exactly my point.

Sauron isn't a very good example.

After the creation of the Rings. Sauron is defeated by the Númenórean king Tar-Minastir. He retreates to Mordor to rebuild. Centuries later he's taken by the Númenóreans. He's is able to convince the king to attack Valinor. When Eru intervenes and drowns Númenor, Sauron's body is destroyed. He flees back to Mordor to rebuild again. Until he's defeated and the One Ring is taken from him. But even then he's done. He secretly sets up base in Dol Guldur. 300 years later the Nazgûl appear. Sauron is forced to flee to avoid being discovered by Gandalf. He returns several hundred years later. Nearly 400 years later Gandalf is successful is discovering that "The Necromancer" is indeed Sauron returned. Finally, almost a hundred years later the White Council is able to drive him out of Dol Guldur.(We see a rather condensed version of this in The Hobbit films) 10 years later he returns to Mordor, which has been prepared by the Nazgûl. This is where The Lord of the Rings films and books pick up.

Sauron is very much like Palpatine. Consistently rebuilding, manipulating things from the shadows. Using his allies and top lieutenants to continue the fighting even after he's been defeated.

 

[Joek3rr]

Sure it is. Fencing? You could include any fighting sport as an example if you want. I mean Luke certainly advanced at a remarkable rate, you're right. But I don't think it's that unbelievable.

No, it's not unbelievable in a fantasy world like Star Wars. With a magic Force and all.

 

[Joek3rr]

The big difference is that the OT is character driven—following Luke’s development and path to becoming a Jedi. Plot contrivances don’t seem as important because they’re typically not the focus. With the ST, it’s decidedly plot-oriented. Things happen and the characters happen to be there. That’s why Rey wins at everything—she isn’t a character, just a device for the plot to happen. That’s why the plot contrivances stick out to those of us that dislike TROS—the trilogy focuses in on the part with the most holes, the plot.

"Things happen."

You mean, like how Luke just happens to crash land his X-wing in the swamp close to Yoda's home? Or how the Millennium Falcon's hyperdrive quits working (without any explanation btw) forcing Han and Leia to have an extended amount of time with each other, so that over the course of the film they fall in love. Or how they land in the one asteroid that happens to have a giant space slug?

What are are the chances? Are they higher or lower then the chances of safely navigating an asteroid field?

 

[Paul Andrew]

Yeah I had to stop when he started refering to Rose as "Shrek", which i assume was some kind of racist remark about her appearance.

This does not sound like a person whose opinion is worth listening to. Gross.

 

[ConvergencePro]

Yeah I had to stop when he started refering to Rose as "Shrek", which i assume was some kind of racist remark about her appearance.

Womp Womp
Nice reach though... Glad we're back to the intellectual discussion of "What?? You don't like StarWars?? You think Rose was a worthless character?!?! Youuuuu RACIST!!!!"
He's simply keeping in line with his TLJ video's where he also called her Shrek because Rose was a extremely poorly done character created entirely out of a need by Rian to split up Rey and Fin. That was her only purpose in the film. Her actions have literally no effect on the story/plot. If indeed Kelly Marie Tran was driven off social media due to harassment by a small fraction of critical fans post TLJ, then that's indeed a shame, but it has never been substantiated by her that that was indeed why she got off social media. In fact I believe she actually attributed it to needing a break from the sudden media/social spotlight that she wasn't used to in her daily life. Good fan praise can be just as overwhelming to someone as bad

I’m genuinely curious what sort of mental backflips you went through in your head in order to draw parallels between goddamn Shrek the giant green Ogre and a person of Asian descent

 

[Ron]

Sauron isn't a very good example.

After the creation of the Rings. Sauron is defeated by the Númenórean king Tar-Minastir. He retreates to Mordor to rebuild. Centuries later he's taken by the Númenóreans. He's is able to convince the king to attack Valinor. When Eru intervenes and drowns Númenor, Sauron's body is destroyed. He flees back to Mordor to rebuild again. Until he's defeated and the One Ring is taken from him. But even then he's done. He secretly sets up base in Dol Guldur. 300 years later the Nazgûl appear. Sauron is forced to flee to avoid being discovered by Gandalf. He returns several hundred years later. Nearly 400 years later Gandalf is successful is discovering that "The Necromancer" is indeed Sauron returned. Finally, almost a hundred years later the White Council is able to drive him out of Dol Guldur.(We see a rather condensed version of this in The Hobbit films) 10 years later he returns to Mordor, which has been prepared by the Nazgûl. This is where The Lord of the Rings films and books pick up.

Sauron is very much like Palpatine. Consistently rebuilding, manipulating things from the shadows. Using his allies and top lieutenants to continue the fighting even after he's been defeated.

All correct. But our journey in Middle-Earth didn't start with Sauron and the creation of the rings. That's my point. Our narrative begins with the Hobbit and subsequently the Lord of the Rings. It's not necessary to explain what led to the state of the world since we weren't there from the beginning to see it change to where it is now. It's not relevant to us. Details of events that happened prior have no essential bearing on the current story as far as we the audience is concerned as our focus is on the current tale of the Fellowship and the quest to destroy the One Ring. My analogy was not to draw a parallel between Sauron and Palpatine as villains. I'm drawing a parallel between the points at which we [the audience] enter the story in both series. However, any sequels going forward have to properly set up any changed state to the world and its characters because now we [the audience] ARE coming in with an established knowledge.

 

[Ron]

No, it's not unbelievable in a fantasy world like Star Wars. With a magic Force and all.

But do you think that's good storytelling? To be able to excuse inconsistences and contradictions with magic i.e. the Force?

 

[Jagjaguwar]

I was less bothered by his attempt at a joke with “Shrek” than I was by the general lack of substance and the extreme length of the video.

I’m not naive enough to believe his explanation, as it’s beyond flimsy, but my guess is the “joke” was more a crude reference to her appearance, and less of any sort of race-based intent. It’s outside the scope of the forum in any case, and not something I’m really interested in delving any further into.