Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
patrickivan
Sr Member
Noting some things in the thread about the PT and OT regarding the Jedi. I think the big issue is assuming that the Jedi in the PT were taught to suppress emotion. I didn't interpret that. It was to control emotion, and to resist forming bonds that could compromise their control. Now of course the Jedi failed in their ability to see the growth in the dark side partly because of their arrogance, and because of the dark side being used to blind them.
And in the OT, regarding Ben and Yoda training Luke, if I recall, he was told he had to confront Vader, not kill or even destroy him. Confront. And he did just that when he had to. I think it can be argued that they had visions of a possible future that we saw in RTOJ. Just like how it was too soon for Luke to confront him in ESB. He had to confront Vader in the presence of the Emporer, and risk sacrificing himself, to get Anakin to come back. And Luke realized that without being told so much. That's what made Luke so great. He conquered his fear and was willing to sacrifice himself.
Having 3 movies to establish Luke to be willing to die for everyone, was completely pissed on in TFA/ TLJ. He stopped believing in sacrifice for a plot point. Where's Luke Skywalker? And then the following plot point for the next movie. Luke made Kylo Ren!
Ugh.
And in the OT, regarding Ben and Yoda training Luke, if I recall, he was told he had to confront Vader, not kill or even destroy him. Confront. And he did just that when he had to. I think it can be argued that they had visions of a possible future that we saw in RTOJ. Just like how it was too soon for Luke to confront him in ESB. He had to confront Vader in the presence of the Emporer, and risk sacrificing himself, to get Anakin to come back. And Luke realized that without being told so much. That's what made Luke so great. He conquered his fear and was willing to sacrifice himself.
Having 3 movies to establish Luke to be willing to die for everyone, was completely pissed on in TFA/ TLJ. He stopped believing in sacrifice for a plot point. Where's Luke Skywalker? And then the following plot point for the next movie. Luke made Kylo Ren!
Ugh.
robn1
Master Member
"I can't do it, Ben. I can't kill my own father."
"Then the Emperor has already won."
They clearly intended for Luke to kill Vader, but he found his own solution.
sztriki
Sr Member
The thermal exhaust port is not a plot hole. People should start to realize just because you repeat what's on screen with a question mark in the end doesn't mean you outsmarted the writer. Cinemasins started this trend which on its own is fun but too many think that it's legit movie criticism.
Other than that completely agree with your post.
azheat
Master Member
I agree plot hole is a bad choice of words, but rather the idea we were left believing that those who built the Death Star, this incredibly complex and sophisticated space station, did not conceive that two torpedos in an exhaust port could destroy it.
And then 35 years later telling us it was the plan all along.
Not the model of storytelling I want to see. So if Disney has plans to explain elsewhere how Palpatine returned in this movie (which I don’t think will ever happen), I don’t care for it and don’t want to see it. They should have set that table sooner.
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Analyzer
Master Member
...oh..and...The Knight's of Ren were ultimately a disappointment akin to Return of The Jedi Boba Fett falling into the Sarlac pit
They were set up as competent ruthless characters with lots of mystery and shown many times ominously posing only to end up as a joke
Maybe Rian had the right idea to forget about them
They were set up as competent ruthless characters with lots of mystery and shown many times ominously posing only to end up as a joke
Maybe Rian had the right idea to forget about them
Analyzer
Master Member
They were such wasted potential. And when they did pop up at the end there was no doubt Kylo would defeat them anyway. It was simply a distraction that added nothing to the drama
sztriki
Sr Member
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't making a comment on you or calling you out, but I never got the idea why so many take an issue with the thermal exhaust port in general. It's not something I feel that needed an (over)explanation, especially as you say in a movie 35 years later.
ConvergencePro
Master Member
Yeah ive never understood peoples being upset with the exhaust port either, even without R1.
There’s countless examples through history where a “flaw” in the design of something has become its ultimate undoing via a bizarre twist of fate
Where WWII is so influential in SW, the best comparative example I think you can draw parallels to with both the fate of the original DS in ANH as well as the Executor in ROTJ would be the destruction of the battleship Bismarck, with her disabled rudder from a lucky torpedo in being the one thing that ultimately led to that mechanical terror being sent to the bottom
There’s countless examples through history where a “flaw” in the design of something has become its ultimate undoing via a bizarre twist of fate
Where WWII is so influential in SW, the best comparative example I think you can draw parallels to with both the fate of the original DS in ANH as well as the Executor in ROTJ would be the destruction of the battleship Bismarck, with her disabled rudder from a lucky torpedo in being the one thing that ultimately led to that mechanical terror being sent to the bottom
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patrickivan
Sr Member
I'm doubling down on my point. It was to confront, and not kill.
Yoda didn't tell him to kill Vader earlier.
Luke: Then I am a Jedi.
Yoda: [coughs trying to speak] Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must...confront...Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi, will you be. And confront him, you will.
Luke: [visibly in agony] Master Yoda...is Darth Vader my father?
And in your quote, Obi-Wan isn't telling him to either. It's Luke who infers that. Obi-wan shrugs while saying the Emperor has already won in response, but that can easily just Obi-wan letting Luke say what he was saying to allow him to reach his own conclusion. The emphasis is still on him confronting Vader.
And indeed that's what Luke realizes he has to do.
Leia: No. Luke, run away, far away. If he can feel your presence, then leave this place! I wish I could go with you.
Luke: No, you don't. You've always been strong.
Leia: But why must you confront him?
Luke: Because there is good in him, I've felt it. He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I can save him; I can turn him back to the good side. I have to try.
Obi-Wan, and Yoda tell him he must confront Vader. And their trust in Luke to do the right thing, turned out to be well placed. IF Luke had tried to kill him outright (and even when his anger helped him beat Vader, he stopped at his hand), Luke would have turned and the Emporer would have won.
ConvergencePro
Master Member
Yeah it seriously does look good. Some looks like it originates from the pre-Palpatine retcon time. Makes me think the rumor JJ’s version of the film beinf something else entirely has some validity to it
The only one I despise is the one of what looks to be Force Ghost Luke stopping Kylo’s saber with his hand. No... just please... no.
DARTH ANIBAL
Sr Member
ConvergencePro
Master Member
DARTH ANIBAL
Sr Member
Oh, man! I got nerdchecked, attempting to nerdcheck someone else! The stupid thing is I totally KNOW that. I'm gonna blame it on me being an accountant with tax season ramping up. I have all kinds of numbers rolling around in my head.Quote says it’s 2 Meters wide my dude
So almost 6ft 7” if we wanna be technical
Yeah, that's it.I'm gonna go rethink my life right now.
Axlotl
Master Member
I strongly disagree with this.
Good people don't do one angry thing and then decide "Welp, I guess I'm evil now."
DARTH ANIBAL
Sr Member
"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."
They do in space opera/fantasy movies born from serials, spaghetti Westerns, and samurai flicks.
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