Joek3rr
Master Member
Once he becomes a servant of the Dark Side, he would choose to turn against his friends. That's the nature of the Dark Side. The Dark Side at its core selfishness. Those in the Dark Side do not care for others, only themselves.
Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
Once he becomes a servant of the Dark Side, he would choose to turn against his friends. That's the nature of the Dark Side. The Dark Side at its core selfishness. Those in the Dark Side do not care for others, only themselves.
Axlotl
Master Member
Again, you dance around the question without answering it. It's like arguing with a flat-earther...
Joek3rr
Master Member
No he could not have killed the Emperor and not been evil. The only possibility is if he could have somehow committed the act, completely free of hate, anger, or fear.
Axlotl
Master Member
So, he doesn't have a choice.
Now I'm confused, because a moment ago you said he did have a choice.
cboath
Master Member
For the sake of argument lets say you're right (you're not, but let's just say...)
It's still an epic fail because in order to grasp that concept you have to go through all that explanation just to get someone to say 'maaayyybbeeee'. They gave 3 seconds of exposition in the movie, from 2 different POV's. It failed miserably to get it's point across if that was even actually the point. To make that work you have to get the vast majority of people to not only see that, but believe based on what you show them and that just fails miserably.
And moreso, the whole point of both scenes was to show one guy didn't mean it and the other thought he was acting pure evil. Even if it was a stupid mistake, which is what they imply (an oops, didn't mean to), you don't then go and give up on the situation entirely and hide out and pout the rest of your life.
You can't have it both ways.
It's still an epic fail because in order to grasp that concept you have to go through all that explanation just to get someone to say 'maaayyybbeeee'. They gave 3 seconds of exposition in the movie, from 2 different POV's. It failed miserably to get it's point across if that was even actually the point. To make that work you have to get the vast majority of people to not only see that, but believe based on what you show them and that just fails miserably.
And moreso, the whole point of both scenes was to show one guy didn't mean it and the other thought he was acting pure evil. Even if it was a stupid mistake, which is what they imply (an oops, didn't mean to), you don't then go and give up on the situation entirely and hide out and pout the rest of your life.
You can't have it both ways.
HMSwolfe
Master Member
It’s almost as if this special branch of philosophy called the Force were a fictional narrative device meant to vaguely represent spirituality and power created by a man who didn’t quite grasp either, rather than an in-depth, detailed, and real system of morality that we should be taking seriously and debating the finer points of even though not everything that’s been said about it actually makes that much sense.
DARTH ANIBAL
Sr Member
Silly rabbit, there is no ROTJ thread.
What's that? Circuitously keep rehashing the same arguments that have been stated and restated ad nauseum in that thread? It's one thing to discuss it as it relates to TROS, but to continue arguing over Luke's motivations in confronting Ben? Come on. There are 200+ pages over there to keep "discussing" that.
Besides, I was addressing the claim that the only people keeping this thread alive were DSW apologists. They're not.
Hey! HEY! Weed is NOT addictive.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
I think I finally understand why I find the ST so disappointing and now appreciate the PT even more as a story.
The thing with Star Wars is that it has always been a character study and world building movie, every new movie giving further insight into the Star Wars universe and it’s society through its characters.
It’s going to be a long post so tl;dr, the reason why I hate TLJ Luke is because TLJ Luke regresses from RotJ Luke to a completely different PT Jedi.
I feel the point of PT was to show both the universe before the Empire came into power and most notably, the Jedi Order and how it failed. Although Palpatine contributed to its fall, the PT Jedi Order was also innately flawed and needed to be revamped. They practiced unhealthy principles (the suppression of emotion and arguably forbidding connections for the greater good) and were dogmatic in their beliefs (once a Jedi falls to the dark side, he is forever a Sith and irredeemable. Emotions lead to the dark side and thus emotions need to be suppressed).
we can see this in the contrast between Anakin and Obi Wan. Obi Wan is dogmatic and ultimately chooses to fight and kill his best friend/brother for the greater good with very little attempt to help pull him back to the light. As much as people joke that Obi Wan is hypocritical for stating “only a Sith deals in absolutes, I will do what I must”, I think Lucas was trying to convey that the Jedi were also flawed and wrong in their thinking.
it was also the suppression of emotion and connection that caused Anakin to pursue the dark side. He was forced to be separated from his mother and leave her as a slave in Tatooine vs at least have her safe in Corusaunt or Naboo. He was forced to surpress and eventually hide his love and marriage to Padme and thus be unable to consult masters on his fears, visions, etc. The Jedi Order failed Anakin.
The thing with Star Wars is that it has always been a character study and world building movie, every new movie giving further insight into the Star Wars universe and it’s society through its characters.
It’s going to be a long post so tl;dr, the reason why I hate TLJ Luke is because TLJ Luke regresses from RotJ Luke to a completely different PT Jedi.
I feel the point of PT was to show both the universe before the Empire came into power and most notably, the Jedi Order and how it failed. Although Palpatine contributed to its fall, the PT Jedi Order was also innately flawed and needed to be revamped. They practiced unhealthy principles (the suppression of emotion and arguably forbidding connections for the greater good) and were dogmatic in their beliefs (once a Jedi falls to the dark side, he is forever a Sith and irredeemable. Emotions lead to the dark side and thus emotions need to be suppressed).
we can see this in the contrast between Anakin and Obi Wan. Obi Wan is dogmatic and ultimately chooses to fight and kill his best friend/brother for the greater good with very little attempt to help pull him back to the light. As much as people joke that Obi Wan is hypocritical for stating “only a Sith deals in absolutes, I will do what I must”, I think Lucas was trying to convey that the Jedi were also flawed and wrong in their thinking.
it was also the suppression of emotion and connection that caused Anakin to pursue the dark side. He was forced to be separated from his mother and leave her as a slave in Tatooine vs at least have her safe in Corusaunt or Naboo. He was forced to surpress and eventually hide his love and marriage to Padme and thus be unable to consult masters on his fears, visions, etc. The Jedi Order failed Anakin.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Luke is thus essential to the Star Wars universe because he represents the change to the Jedi Order. Luke follows Anakin’s path as a Jedi (strong force potential but “too old,” emotional, etc). However, Luke is not surrounded by allies who force him to keep his emotions shut but friends in Han and Leia who allow him to mature and grow as a person. He isn’t just told the dogmatic ways of the Jedi order and thus is able to form his own opinions and beliefs, the most important being just because a person has fallen to the dark side doesn’t mean they are irredeemable.
the final encounter with Vader and Palpatine is thus the culmination of this belief. Yes, Luke does strike first and Palpatine senses his anger and emotions. Yup, Luke does give in to anger, powering his strikes to then overpower and disarm Vader. However, the key point is Luke choses to not be a Sith, reaffirms that he is a Jedi despite his emotions, and like his father before him you can have emotions like anger and still fight for good.
Luke is rewarded with this by the fact that Vader chooses of his own will to kill the emperor, sacrificing himself in the process. The most powerful scene is arguably after the fight, where Vader asks Luke to take off his helmet and reaffirms that Luke was right about him, that he was right that a Jedi doesn’t need to be emotionless and that even a Sith Lord like Vader can return to the light.
the fundamental problem with the ST Luke is this how Luke seems to throw his message away. One of the most exciting aspects of the potential ST imo would be the reveal of Luke’s new Jedi order. This has been explored in the EU, allowing Jedi to form relationships, marry, be actual humans. This is due to the fact that Luke understands that emotions like anger are natural to living beings and just because you express those does not mean you fall and become a Sith, nor does it mean you become irredeemable.
However, TLJ Luke reverts to PT Jedi beliefs, believing if a person is fated to fall to darkness, he is irredeemable and thus must be killed. Honestly, if it were not Luke but Obi Wan or Yoda training Ben, the TLJ actions make sense. These Jedi firmly believe once a Sith always a Sith and thus it would be justified to kill him before he comes to power.
However, Luke is different. He recognized the flaws of the previous Jedi Order and was even reaffirmed this by his father, the one who he redeemed. ST Luke doesn’t make sense to me because his story trajectory and the lessons learned from his journey are contradictory to his actions in TLJ.
Luke shouldn’t have tried to attack Ben, even after the vision. Maybe break down crying from sadness that his family may be tainted by the dark side but not attack (like the reveal that his dad was Vader). Luke also wouldn’t have given up on Ben, believing that he could have been redeemed and brought back to the light against all odds. He did for Vader when Obi Wan and Yoda didn’t. So why so different for Ben?
the final encounter with Vader and Palpatine is thus the culmination of this belief. Yes, Luke does strike first and Palpatine senses his anger and emotions. Yup, Luke does give in to anger, powering his strikes to then overpower and disarm Vader. However, the key point is Luke choses to not be a Sith, reaffirms that he is a Jedi despite his emotions, and like his father before him you can have emotions like anger and still fight for good.
Luke is rewarded with this by the fact that Vader chooses of his own will to kill the emperor, sacrificing himself in the process. The most powerful scene is arguably after the fight, where Vader asks Luke to take off his helmet and reaffirms that Luke was right about him, that he was right that a Jedi doesn’t need to be emotionless and that even a Sith Lord like Vader can return to the light.
the fundamental problem with the ST Luke is this how Luke seems to throw his message away. One of the most exciting aspects of the potential ST imo would be the reveal of Luke’s new Jedi order. This has been explored in the EU, allowing Jedi to form relationships, marry, be actual humans. This is due to the fact that Luke understands that emotions like anger are natural to living beings and just because you express those does not mean you fall and become a Sith, nor does it mean you become irredeemable.
However, TLJ Luke reverts to PT Jedi beliefs, believing if a person is fated to fall to darkness, he is irredeemable and thus must be killed. Honestly, if it were not Luke but Obi Wan or Yoda training Ben, the TLJ actions make sense. These Jedi firmly believe once a Sith always a Sith and thus it would be justified to kill him before he comes to power.
However, Luke is different. He recognized the flaws of the previous Jedi Order and was even reaffirmed this by his father, the one who he redeemed. ST Luke doesn’t make sense to me because his story trajectory and the lessons learned from his journey are contradictory to his actions in TLJ.
Luke shouldn’t have tried to attack Ben, even after the vision. Maybe break down crying from sadness that his family may be tainted by the dark side but not attack (like the reveal that his dad was Vader). Luke also wouldn’t have given up on Ben, believing that he could have been redeemed and brought back to the light against all odds. He did for Vader when Obi Wan and Yoda didn’t. So why so different for Ben?
HeartBlade
Sr Member
I completely disagree. Luke chose not to kill Vader despite losing his hand to him, the threats to him and his loved ones, and Vader was lying defeated at his feet.
he also chose to not kill Palpatine, literally throwing his saber away. He expressed anger in the fight but showed that he can overcome it and still remain a Jedi.
Luke essentially believes that it is never too late, that one can always turn good and work for the good of others, a very religious belief (hence why religion is an essential aspect in reforming others imo).
Joek3rr
Master Member
I'm not sure what you disagree with. Because I agree with all you said. Lol
DARTH ANIBAL
Sr Member
On this much, we agree!
azheat
Master Member
Hmmm, I don't know, that door looks a little thick to be just a covering. But I guess if I wanna really nitpick I would be more concerned with how that thing was working at all after being submerged for 10+ years.............
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CT1138
Sr Member
TBH, the ship's flight capability doesn't seem like a nitpick at all. I wondered the same thing when I saw the X-Wing fly. But the ship seemed to have all four of its wings when Luke raised it from the seabed.
azheat
Master Member
On another note, I was discussing this movie with a buddy who loved it, and I told him one one of my gripes was I felt it was cheap to just bring back Palpatine with no context. I felt it diminished Vader's redemption at the end of ROTJ. I also didn't like what I felt was a rushed story line of Rey as Palp's granddaughter. His response was, "I'm sure they'll do other movies down the road where they explain all that, look what they did with Rogue One".
So my response was just because Rogue One filled a 30 year old plot hole, which existed mostly because of intention to details like that back in the 70s, means it's OK to be sloppy with story lines now? Not buying it........I would be bummed if I learned they left out these details on purpose just to fill in the gaps with stand alone films down the road. Which , frankly, I don't believe is going to happen here with this story.
So my response was just because Rogue One filled a 30 year old plot hole, which existed mostly because of intention to details like that back in the 70s, means it's OK to be sloppy with story lines now? Not buying it........I would be bummed if I learned they left out these details on purpose just to fill in the gaps with stand alone films down the road. Which , frankly, I don't believe is going to happen here with this story.
ConvergencePro
Master Member
Jeez, dont you guy’s know its just a spare wing? Luke just keeps it stuffed up his a** GTA style until he needs it. Its all explained in some 3rd party allegory medium like Fortnight or something
Mr Webber
Master Member
Nah, all I see is one guy misrepresenting Luke Skywalker because he bought in completely to the concept of Ruin Johnson creating Jake Skywalker and others are just pointing that out to him in this thread. This was a modus operandi even when TLJ thread was still a thing. He very rarely commented in it.
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