Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[cboath]

The EU examples you provided retcon ROTJ, that's very likely why GL kept them in the EU.

Why would the audience believe the Sith were extinct?
Because the original creator of Star Wars reopened his story after many years and spent hundreds of millions of dollars. Not to pick up after ROTJ but to add some context (unnecessary IMO) to those events without undoing them. He made the PT to introduce the prophecy (and Jar Jar!) to the story, and make the actions of Vader/Anakin in ROTJ have MORE meaning (a mystical prophecy rather than "just" a father's love for his son). Personally, I don't think of the PT as part of the saga but if DSW is calling this the conclusion to nine films they ought to approach it with some story consistency.

Still pointless. Even if it isn't sith, the implication of balance being permanent is an absolute joke because of human (or whatever race) nature. People will gain force powers and go, gee, I can make people do what I want with these things...it's a guaranteed inevitability. They don't have to be 'sith' per se, just force users who do bad things. Still undoes a permanent balance prophecy no matter how you look at it. Think no one ever falls to the dark side ever again is just implausible at best.

 

[Kovnyn]

True. But also remember that the Force will seek to balance itself. And in order to do that it will briefly boost a person's power. So when Luke's life is at risk he's able to suddenly pull the lightsaber to his hand. Or again when his life is at risk he suddenly finds the ability to use telepathy.

Where did you get the idea that Force will balance itself? If it did that, there would be no need for prophesies.

This isn't canon, or established in any lore.

Luke could pull his lightsaber because he had practiced telekinesis. He was able to calm his mind and channel the Force. His use of the Jedi mind trick is not an example of the Force boosting his power in a time of need. That's absurd.

Heir to the Jedi is a canon novel which goes over aspects of his training such as telekinesis and mind tricks. Luke had a couple years of discovering the Force on his own, attuning himself and learning between ANH and ESB. We probably dont see the full extent of his training with Yoda.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Still pointless. Even if it isn't sith, the implication of balance being permanent is an absolute joke because of human (or whatever race) nature. People will gain force powers and go, gee, I can make people do what I want with these things...it's a guaranteed inevitability. They don't have to be 'sith' per se, just force users who do bad things. Still undoes a permanent balance prophecy no matter how you look at it. Think no one ever falls to the dark side ever again is just implausible at best.

I completely agree with you about human nature and all but I'm talking about "in universe" expectations from the story as it's presented to the audience. The audience has every reason to believe the prophecy is true taking GL's six films as a "whole" story. It seems to be the whole point of him creating the PT. The ST undoes those original arcs or makes them pointless and sidelines the Skywalkers as puppets of Palpatine all along.

 

[Axlotl]

True. But also remember that the Force will seek to balance itself. And in order to do that it will briefly boost a person's power. So when Luke's life is at risk he's able to suddenly pull the lightsaber to his hand. Or again when his life is at risk he suddenly finds the ability to use telepathy.

This is where you and I differ. The force didn't do those things, Luke did those things. The force doesn't "do" anything - the force just "is".
In the OT, the movies that I grew up on and the only ones I consider canon, the force was based on Eastern spiritualism - zen buddhism and taoism - meditational spiritualism, where the ultimate goal is becoming one with the universe. That's what "using the force" was - calming one's mind and channeling the life-energy of the cosmos.
George forgot all about that when he sat down to write the prequels and reinvented the force using Western religion archetypes, which is why the force is such a convoluted mess now and nobody understands it anymore and now it's apparently the same gorram thing as Harry Potter magic. Or is it the same thing as god? I don't know anymore... but you guys should really read this stuff you're posting attempting to reconcile the OT force with the PT force and now the ST force. It's absolute nonsense.

 

[ConvergencePro]

This is where you and I differ. The force didn't do those things, Luke did those things. The force doesn't "do" anything - the force just "is".
In the OT, the movies that I grew up on and the only ones I consider canon, the force was based on Eastern spiritualism - zen buddhism and taoism - meditational spiritualism, where the ultimate goal is becoming one with the universe. That's what "using the force" was - calming one's mind and channeling the life-energy of the cosmos.
George forgot all about that when he sat down to write the prequels and reinvented the force using Western religion archetypes, which is why the force is such a convoluted mess now and nobody understands it anymore and now it's apparently the same gorram thing as Harry Potter magic. Or is it the same thing as god? I don't know anymore... but you guys should really read this stuff you're posting attempting to reconcile the OT force with the PT force and now the ST force. It's absolute nonsense.

100% THIS
I suspect the whole George not understanding the Force is largely because it wasn’t even really his baby. It was something more born from the mind of Gary Kurtz and adapted from his own views and experiences with religion. Likewise the Force itself, while all surrounding/binding, largely took a back seat to the overarching story whereas it’s literally the scotch tape holding the ST together along with cheap nostalgia rips

 

[Joek3rr]

This is where you and I differ. The force didn't do those things, Luke did those things. The force doesn't "do" anything - the force just "is".
In the OT, the movies that I grew up on and the only ones I consider canon, the force was based on Eastern spiritualism - zen buddhism and taoism - meditational spiritualism, where the ultimate goal is becoming one with the universe. That's what "using the force" was - calming one's mind and channeling the life-energy of the cosmos.
George forgot all about that when he sat down to write the prequels and reinvented the force using Western religion archetypes, which is why the force is such a convoluted mess now and nobody understands it anymore and now it's apparently the same gorram thing as Harry Potter magic. Or is it the same thing as god? I don't know anymore... but you guys should really read this stuff you're posting attempting to reconcile the OT force with the PT force and now the ST force. It's absolute nonsense.

So how do you explain the existence of destiny in the OT?

 

[Axlotl]

So how do you explain the existence of destiny in the OT?

The same way I explain it in the real world: It's a word people use.
I could say you and I were destined to have this conversation.
Is your mind blown that I predicted your destiny?

 

[Joek3rr]

Where did you get the idea that Force will balance itself? If it did that, there would be no need for prophesies.

This isn't canon, or established in any lore.

Luke could pull his lightsaber because he had practiced telekinesis. He was able to calm his mind and channel the Force. His use of the Jedi mind trick is not an example of the Force boosting his power in a time of need. That's absurd.

Heir to the Jedi is a canon novel which goes over aspects of his training such as telekinesis and mind tricks. Luke had a couple years of discovering the Force on his own, attuning himself and learning between ANH and ESB. We probably dont see the full extent of his training with Yoda.

It's in the films. "All is as the Force wills it." The Dark Side has grown stronger. Along comes Anakin to balance this. Palpatine knows this, so he that's why he targets him and turns him. So the Force brings up Luke, who redeems Anakin. Anakin returns to the light, and "kills" Palpatine, knocking the Dark Side back down. And so there is balance. But Palpatine is able to come back. Ben is turned, balance is lost. So the Force brings Palpatine's' granddaughter to bring balance once again.

 

[Bigdaddy]

So how do you explain the existence of destiny in the OT?

It doesn't exist in the OT universe.

 

[Joek3rr]

The same way I explain it in the real world: It's a word people use.

But Obi-Wan clearly believes in it. So does Vader, and Palpatine. And certainly, there other people that believe that too. Otherwise, where would Han have picked up this description of the Force? "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny."

 

[Joek3rr]

It doesn't exist in the OT universe.

Do I need to pull out quotes?

 

[Axlotl]

But Obi-Wan clearly believes in it. So does Vader, and Palpatine. And certainly, there other people that believe that too. Otherwise, where would Han have picked up this description of the Force? "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny."

Because they believe in it, does that make it real?

 

[ConvergencePro]

But Obi-Wan clearly believes in it. So does Vader, and Palpatine. And certainly, there other people that believe that too. Otherwise, where would Han have picked up this description of the Force? "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny."

I think you might be taking things said just a little too literally.
Ignoring Han’s incredibly sarcastic remark which shouldn’t be used for support regardless of the conversation because it literally is sarcasm, in the OT the Force is more implied as a influential supernatural thing that can help guide our hero (again this is all Hero’s Journey stuff). But by no means would or should it control or determine their destiny/outcome. That’s for the characters to find and accomplish for themselves through their own actions and growth

 

[Ron]

It's in the films. "All is as the Force wills it."

I don't care who owns Star Wars now or what those who now own it decide is "canon" but there's no way I'm going to allow a quote from Rogue One -a movie made without the original creators of this universe- to now come along 35 years after the end of the original saga and dictate what the meaning of the Force is.

But Obi-Wan clearly believes in it. So does Vader, and Palpatine. And certainly, there other people that believe that too. Otherwise, where would Han have picked up this description of the Force? "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny."

Okay, that's a fair quote to support your argument. My answer to that would be the same as what BobaFettSlave_1 just posted above. It's influential but NOT in control.

 

[BTTUK]

But Obi-Wan clearly believes in it. So does Vader, and Palpatine. And certainly, there other people that believe that too. Otherwise, where would Han have picked up this description of the Force? "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny."

Obi-wan, Vader, Palpatine etc all believed in destiny, but all had wildly different versions of what it was, and that is obvious when you think about it.

Obi-wan feels it is Luke's destiny to defeat Vader and the Emperor, when in reality, Anakin did both.

Vader believes it is Luke's destiny to join him so they could rule together. Palpatine believed his destiny was to become a Sith and take Vader's place.

In the end Luke's "destiny" was chosen by himself and his actions up to throwing his saber away and proclaiming himself a Jedi on his own terms. Like the Force, destiny is something that isn't tangible until it has happened.

I hate to keep harping on about it, but if destiny meant anything in the ST, Anakin would've been there in TRoS to hammer it home that his destiny was to always bring balance. Again, if Anakin had brought Rey back to life with Luke's help if needed (perhaps using up their ability to be ghosts), Rey then deciding to call herself a Skywalker may have been more powerful at the end.

 

[Joek3rr]

Because they believe in it, does that make it real?

Not necessarily. But considering that some of the main characters believe it, means it could very well be real. I mean the guy who doesn't believe this is the scoundrel, the rogue. But some of the most learned people on the Force, believe in it's controlling will.

Plus just look at how the Force is presented in those three films. Pay attention to when the Force theme is played. The first time? Leia giving the Death Star plans to Luke. The second time? Luke looking out at the setting suns on Tatooine. Ask yourself, why is the Force theme being played now?

 

[Joek3rr]

I think you might be taking things said just a little too literally.
Ignoring Han’s incredibly sarcastic remark which shouldn’t be used for support regardless of the conversation because it literally is sarcasm, in the OT the Force is more implied as a influential supernatural thing that can help guide our hero (again this is all Hero’s Journey stuff). But by no means would or should it control or determine their destiny/outcome. That’s for the characters to find and accomplish for themselves through their own actions and growth

I don't care who owns Star Wars now or what those who now own it decide is "canon" but there's no way I'm going to allow a quote from Rogue One -a movie made without the original creator of this universe- to now come along 35 years after the end of the original saga and dictate what the meaning of the Force is.

Okay, that's a fair quote to support your argument. My answer to that would be the same as what BobaFettSlave_1 just posted above. It's influential but NOT in control.

I would say it's in control. But people still have this free will. So it would seem more like just an influence.

 

[Joek3rr]

Obi-wan, Vader, Palpatine etc all believed in destiny, but all had wildly different versions of what it was, and that is obvious when you think about it.

Obi-wan feels it is Luke's destiny to defeat Vader and the Emperor, when in reality, Anakin did both.

Vader believes it is Luke's destiny to join him so they could rule together. Palpatine believed his destiny was to become a Sith and take Vader's place.

In the end Luke's "destiny" was chosen by himself and his actions up to throwing his saber away and proclaiming himself a Jedi on his own terms. Like the Force, destiny is something that isn't tangible until it has happened.

I hate to keep harping on about it, but if destiny meant anything in the ST, Anakin would've been there in TRoS to hammer it home that his destiny was to always bring balance. Again, if Anakin had brought Rey back to life with Luke's help if needed (perhaps using up their ability to be ghosts), Rey then deciding to call herself a Skywalker may have been more powerful at the end.

Which kinda what George said. He says people have destiny if they wish to follow it.

But Anakin fulfilled his destiny in ROTJ. He brought balance. End of story for him. (sort of, but I think you get my meaning)

 

[ConvergencePro]

I honestly don’t care what crazy uncle George says. He may be responsible for StarWars in its most base form of idea, but he’s not single handedly responsible for the creation of the OT and it’s world; if he was it would have flopped in 77 with the first film, and it’s been wildly clear with his constant tinkering that he does not understand how “his own films” even work
Han no longer shooting first should be the biggest indicator to this where it fundamentally changes the starting point of his entire character.

 

[BTTUK]

Which kinda what George said. He says people have destiny if they wish to follow it.

But Anakin fulfilled his destiny in ROTJ. He brought balance. End of story for him. (sort of, but I think you get my meaning)

Except that isn't destiny then. It's just being used as a convenient word and could be said to be superfluous really.

For many of us, that point doesn't hold water as the one that he was supposed to have killed to fulfil that, isn't actually dead and gone. If if he didn't completely die, then Anakin could never have fulfilled it, unless of course it just makes it a relatively pointless arc.

I said earlier, if it was another big evil that tipped the balance again, then fine. But it wasn't, was it. Which is why I keep banging the drum about Anakin being absent.