Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[Toadmeister]

Since we are talking about plot holes, there are quite a few in the ST when you take the 3 movies as one story (which we should since it’s a trilogy)

here are the ones that bug me the most:

if Rey is a Palpatine, why did the Skywalker saber call out to her? Why did Obi Wan say these are her first steps? Why are the Jedi putting their faith in a Palpatine in the first place?

The vision in TFA. What was that from? It’s definately not Rey’s past memories since she is a nobody. How does she see Ren and the Knights of Ren?

Why was the first order looking for Luke? Luke is a cranky old man who went into self-imposes exile to die and is a powerful warrior. Why taunt a defeated warrior that could cripple or crush your forces when he is going to die on his own volition and leave you to do what you want?

What was Palpatine’s plan and why did he come back now? It seems he can come back to life, abit in a weakened state. Why didn’t he contact Kylo Ren through Snoke earlier? Why didn’t he send some of his massive fleet to aid the first order (a couple of those Star destroyers and the First Order would have wiped out the alliance by TLJ).

So is the prophecy of the one BS? Anakin was phrophesized to be the one to bring an end to the Sith. RoS basically reveals that not only has Anakin failed to do that (Palps is back), it’s implied he would have never able to do so (Palps can Seem to come back time and time again).

 

[robn1]

Or like saying that piloting a t16 skyhopper in atmo and blasting womprats is going to make you proficient enough to pilot an X-Wing Starfighter during the hairiest assault the rebellion had yet seen and bullseye a 2 meter exhaust port.

true the x-wing run was a ton of luck. A ton of pilots got killed in the run and Luke honestly did get lucky (and has main character plot armor).

hell, I remember there was one pilot that successfully went through the run but missed with his proton torpedoes. Too bad he doesn’t have the force.

Luke was implied to be a good pilot, wanting to join the imperial academy (would be a really interesting what if he did lol). He had experience with the t16 skyhopper whose controls are similar to the X-wing. Blasting womp rats turned out not to be so useful since he relied on the force to get the shot. And he wasn’t a super pilot that outshone the others in the fight. It was a do or die

The best fighter pilots of WWII were mostly farm boys. Their familiarity with heavy machinery allowed them to take to flying rather easily, and those with hunting experience were the best marksmen.

One simple line from Obi Wan, "I hear you've become quit a good pilot yourself", was all it took to set it up. Luke was an experienced pilot, so good that he had a reputation. When he did some crazy flying in his T-16 people talked about it.

 

[Paul Andrew]

The best fighter pilots of WWII were mostly farm boys. Their familiarity with heavy machinery allowed them to take to flying rather easily, and those with hunting experience were the best marksmen.

One simple line from Obi Wan, "I hear you've become quit a good pilot yourself", was all it took to set it up. Luke was an experienced pilot, so good that he had a reputation. When he did some crazy flying in his T-16 people talked about it.

Yet we actually SEE Rey successfully defending herself and it's not enough. Do we need an old white guy with British gravitas to tell us she's earned it first?

 

[ConvergencePro]

The best fighter pilots of WWII were mostly farm boys. Their familiarity with heavy machinery allowed them to take to flying rather easily, and those with hunting experience were the best marksmen.

One simple line from Obi Wan, "I hear you've become quit a good pilot yourself", was all it took to set it up. Luke was an experienced pilot, so good that he had a reputation. When he did some crazy flying in his T-16 people talked about it.

It really is funny just how good the writing in the OT is that most of these “issues” are easily debunked if you simply pay attention to everything going on in the movie. Like the myth that stormtroopers can’t shoot or even that the Empire itself is incompetent is entirely ignoring the fact that Vader purposefully wants our hero’s to escape (ANH) or to be taken alive no matter what for the purposes of turning Luke (ESB). They decimated in their attack on Hoth, as well as in the defense of the first Death Star save for Luke. ROTJ gets a little weird because both still exist but without Vader actively hunting our hero’s it’s a little strange how inefficient the Stormies on Endor are.
That’s that films biggest fault for me hands down. Ewoks are cute and all but narratively they significantly hurt the believability in the events compared to if they were something already established to be dangerous like Wookiee’s or similar. That and the complete absence of SD’s immediately after the DS II is being destroyed when the battle immediately prior to Lando and Wedge entering the DSII was still significantly on the Empires side.
I don’t see this so much as a story writing issue so much as it is an editing/missing scene issue.
Admiral Akbar himself says “We’ve got to give those fighters more time! Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer!” .
The Alliance doesn’t need to win the space battle, they just need to buy more time to destroy the DS II; their one and only goal. Targeting the Executor turns out to be a great tactical maneuver as once the shield are brought down, the wounded A-wing pilot steers his ship upward, kamikazeing the bridge knocking her out of action, the gravity well of the DS II pulling her down into her destruction
What the film needed now was a couple additional scenes with something that better conveyed...
“With the sudden unexpected loss of the Executor the fight begins to turn for the Empire’s Fleet, but the battle is still largely on their side with numbers alone and the Rebellion are still suffering heavy losses. Right up until the Empires fleet gets word the DS II’s imminent destruction at the hands of the Rebels with the collapse of the core. With this the Imperial commander now in charge following the death of Admiral Piett realizes the battle is lost. In order to save the remaining Imperial Fleet from further damage in the imminent explosion of the DS II, he orders retreat...”
Do those two things and the film‘s integrity is significantly improved imo. It implies the beginning of the fall of the Empire with the Emperor dead; the head of the snake removed and systems rising up in a revolution

Yet we actually SEE Rey successfully defending herself and it's not enough. Do we need an old white guy with British gravitas to tell us she's earned it first?

the issue with Rey is she’s our protagonist and as such the general audience needs to relate to them easily in order to start to care about them along their journey. Learning things alongside them as they grow and become who they are at the end of the story is vital to this. And it’s also Reys biggest fault as a character because most of us don’t just magically become good at things as well as Rey does to everything. Ffs it’s implied she’s even a better pilot than Poe by Poe himself in TROS which is just bizarre as hell... When did that happen on screen? Same place it did her force training for every film prior, largely off screen.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Yet we actually SEE Rey successfully defending herself and it's not enough. Do we need an old white guy with British gravitas to tell us she's earned it first?

An old black woman with Nigerian gravitas would work just as well.
I never had a problem with Rey's melee combat skills since, as you pointed out it's actually shown in the beginning of the the first film.

 

[jhazard]

Yet we actually SEE Rey successfully defending herself and it's not enough. Do we need an old white guy with British gravitas to tell us she's earned it first?

We see Rey defending herself with a staff.

Using a staff doesn't lend a lot of technique to the use of a sword. They're very different weapons, the operate from different ranges, and the mechanics are not very analagous to each other.

There are treatises written, where a "system" of combat is laid out, from grappling to dagger to pole arms and include sword as well. However, these were written for warriors who were already versed in their use, the techniques were an advanced art, kept secret as much as they could. The system required practice, and a handing down of knowledge from teacher to student.

In Rey's case, proficiency in one does not necessarily translate to proficiency in any other. The disparity in TFA is even greater because she doesn't go to a sword, but to a light saber which is even more different than a sword would be.

 

[Paul Andrew]

We see Rey defending herself with a staff.

Using a staff doesn't lend a lot of technique to the use of a sword. They're very different weapons, the operate from different ranges, and the mechanics are not very analagous to each other.

There are treatises written, where a "system" of combat is laid out, from grappling to dagger to pole arms and include sword as well. However, these were written for warriors who were already versed in their use, the techniques were an advanced art, kept secret as much as they could. The system required practice, and a handing down of knowledge from teacher to student.

In Rey's case, proficiency in one does not necessarily translate to proficiency in any other. The disparity in TFA is even greater because she doesn't go to a sword, but to a light saber which is even more different than a sword would be.

Meh. Disagree. Moving on.

 

[Joek3rr]

Since we are talking about plot holes, there are quite a few in the ST when you take the 3 movies as one story (which we should since it’s a trilogy)

here are the ones that bug me the most:

if Rey is a Palpatine, why did the Skywalker saber call out to her? Why did Obi Wan say these are her first steps? Why are the Jedi putting their faith in a Palpatine in the first place?

The vision in TFA. What was that from? It’s definately not Rey’s past memories since she is a nobody. How does she see Ren and the Knights of Ren?

Why was the first order looking for Luke? Luke is a cranky old man who went into self-imposes exile to die and is a powerful warrior. Why taunt a defeated warrior that could cripple or crush your forces when he is going to die on his own volition and leave you to do what you want?

What was Palpatine’s plan and why did he come back now? It seems he can come back to life, abit in a weakened state. Why didn’t he contact Kylo Ren through Snoke earlier? Why didn’t he send some of his massive fleet to aid the first order (a couple of those Star destroyers and the First Order would have wiped out the alliance by TLJ).

So is the prophecy of the one BS? Anakin was phrophesized to be the one to bring an end to the Sith. RoS basically reveals that not only has Anakin failed to do that (Palps is back), it’s implied he would have never able to do so (Palps can Seem to come back time and time again).

What about the saber calling to her is a plot hole? I mean she wasn't going to be a Skywalker either way you slice it. And she wasn't a Solo. It's just a simple matter of the Force calling, her and wanting her to take it. Why did we hear Obi-Wan. Because he spoke to her. Again it's not like they were related. Ezra Bridger heard master Yoda's voice, and I'm pretty sure they aren't related. (Unless she's his granddaughter, but I don't see that working for Obi-Wan. He only ever loved one, and she was killed.) Why are the Jedi putting their faith in a Palpatine? "What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause." - Bastila Shan

Again, unexplained stuff isn't a plot hole. But why did she see Kylo? Because they have bond, they are a dyad.

Why was First Order looking for Luke? Snoke explains that in TLJ.
"Darkness rises, and light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise. Skywalker.... I assumed. Wrongly."

Palpatine's plan is to take over a new body, bring the Sith back to power, and reclaim the galaxy. Why didn't he send out ships? He wasn't ready to reveal himself.

The prophecy as the Jedi interpreted it, was wrong. "A prophecy...that misread could have been." And in Rebels, Obi-Wan tells Maul that Luke is the Chosen One. (Also remember that the whole destroy the Sith stuff was tacked on for ROTS. It's never mentioned in TPM or ATOC.) I mean this is the prophecy as stated in Master & Apprentice "A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored."

 

[Bigdaddy]

The Force: greatest plot-hole patch in story telling history!

 

[BTTUK]

What about the saber calling to her is a plot hole? I mean she wasn't going to be a Skywalker either way you slice it. And she wasn't a Solo. It's just a simple matter of the Force calling, her and wanting her to take it. Why did we hear Obi-Wan. Because he spoke to her. Again it's not like they were related. Ezra Bridger heard master Yoda's voice, and I'm pretty sure they aren't related. (Unless she's his granddaughter, but I don't see that working for Obi-Wan. He only ever loved one, and she was killed.) Why are the Jedi putting their faith in a Palpatine? "What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause." - Bastila Shan

Again, unexplained stuff isn't a plot hole. But why did she see Kylo? Because they have bond, they are a dyad.

Why was First Order looking for Luke? Snoke explains that in TLJ.
"Darkness rises, and light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise. Skywalker.... I assumed. Wrongly."

Palpatine's plan is to take over a new body, bring the Sith back to power, and reclaim the galaxy. Why didn't he send out ships? He wasn't ready to reveal himself.

The prophecy as the Jedi interpreted it, was wrong. "A prophecy...that misread could have been." And in Rebels, Obi-Wan tells Maul that Luke is the Chosen One. (Also remember that the whole destroy the Sith stuff was tacked on for ROTS. It's never mentioned in TPM or ATOC.) I mean this is the prophecy as stated in Master & Apprentice "A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored."

It's never said that the prophecy is wrong. Yoda merely suggests that it may have been mis-read/mis-interpreted, which comes about as the Jedi are becoming more and more unsure of themselves in the Clone Wars. Anakin is, was and always will be the "Chosen One", however Palpatine being back, does have a negative effect on that in TROS for me.

 

[Joek3rr]

It's never said that the prophecy is wrong. Yoda merely suggests that it may have been mis-read/mis-interpreted, which comes about as the Jedi are becoming more and more unsure of themselves in the Clone Wars. Anakin is, was and always will be the "Chosen One", however Palpatine being back, does have a negative effect on that in TROS for me.

And I never said the prophecy was wrong. I said that it's interpretation was wrong. It's just the prophecy never explicitly says anything about the Sith being destroyed, or that it would be permanent. The only thing explicitly stated, is that the Chosen One would be born of no father, and that through them balance would be restored.

Redirect Notice

 

[Bigdaddy]

Clearly the prophecy was BS, the Jedi were revealed to be fools and the Palpatines won in the end.
Seems like a valid interpretation of the retconned story.

 

[Joek3rr]

Clearly the prophecy was BS, the Jedi were revealed to be fools and the Palpatines won in the end.
Seems like a valid interpretation of the retconned story.

Because dumping your family name and taking some else's name, makes the other family the winner....

 

[Bigdaddy]

Because dumping your family name and taking some else's name, makes the other family the winner....

Yes, you nailed it bro!

 

[robn1]

Yet we actually SEE Rey successfully defending herself and it's not enough. Do we need an old white guy with British gravitas to tell us she's earned it first?

Yes we can assume Rey can defend herself, just as we can assume Luke can defend the homestead from sandpeople attacks, based on what we saw in the films. I have no problem with Rey being a good fighter. But when did anyone tell her what the Force is, and how to use it?

 

[gedmac66]

Yes we can assume Rey can defend herself, just as we can assume Luke can defend the homestead from sandpeople attacks, based on what we saw in the films. I have no problem with Rey being a good fighter. But when did anyone tell her what the Force is, and how to use it?

You know, when she did that ( Vulcan ) ‘ mind - meld ‘ type thing with Kylo in TFA ! ...,

Oh !, and she’s also part A or B of a ‘ dyad ‘ too ..., whatever that is !? - never mentioned in the films before now, in my recollection of them , and of course if it ain’t in the movies ..., well, that is, til it’s really needed to completely retcon what’s come before - well then, anything can & should be introduced !

 

[ZeroSum]

Let's face it - Star Wars has gone downhill ever since

 

[Joek3rr]

Yes we can assume Rey can defend herself, just as we can assume Luke can defend the homestead from sandpeople attacks, based on what we saw in the films. I have no problem with Rey being a good fighter. But when did anyone tell her what the Force is, and how to use it?

I wonder who told "baby Yoda" about the Force, and how to use it?

 

[ConvergencePro]

I wonder who told "baby Yoda" about the Force, and how to use it?

Doesn’t matter where/how baby Yoda is using the force. It’s not our protagonist that we need to relate to along their journey. That would be The Mandalorian.
Also it being a species that all three examples of which we’ve seen as strong force users, it implies that the species may be inherently strong with the force. Unlike humans for which we see being a force user is inherently rare by comparison, and requiring training in all counts

 

[Mr Webber]

Doesn’t matter where/how baby Yoda is using the force. It’s not our protagonist that we need to relate to along their journey. That would be The Mandalorian.
Also it being a species that all three examples of which we’ve seen as strong force users, it implies that the species may be inherently strong with the force. Unlike humans for which we see being a force user is inherently rare by comparison, and requiring training in all counts

Its a great return to adding a little mystery while being grounded in the original work. Thats why almost nobody has tried to question it, had a problem with it or use it as some kind of explanation for the current stuff. Thank God the Disney trilogy is over and they never got the chance to get their grubby mitts on him. Fingers crossed the healing aspect will be the one and only association.