Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[Captain Dunsel]

Never mind that Palpatine's theme played during Rey's torture by Snoke?

I mean the moment Snoke was killed without any background. I knew that he wasn't as important as some thought. I began to immediately look for the other big baddie. Again look at his name, Snoke, comes from the term smoke and mirrors, which is means to mislead. Snoke was a shell game. Chris Terrio just said almost the same thing.

I have to say, although I disagree with those who love the Sequel Trilogy, and those who defend the creative choices made by the Disney Story Team and producers, I sincerely respect the fact that you have a response and defense for nearly every criticism made. It’s impressive. I wish that I had the same passion for the ST films.

 

[gedmac66]

Okay, go back to TFA. Who did people really think Kylo was talking to? Who was showing him the power of the Dark Side? Can't be Vader, he's gone. Only leaves one other person.

R.J. !?

 

[Bigdaddy]

Okay, go back to TFA. Who did people really think Kylo was talking to? Who was showing him the power of the Dark Side? Can't be Vader, he's gone. Only leaves one other person.

Yeah, Palpatine was just as gone as Vader. Since there are no rules to this new DSW universe, I suppose it could have been literally anyone talking to Kylo. Think about it, maybe it WAS Vader! Maybe he fooled Luke AND Palpatine into thinking he was redeemed... I mean his force ghost started out looking like a kindly grandfather but ended up morphing into that creepy senator stalker that murders children.... anything makes sense now.

I think I have a pitch for episode 10!

 

[Jagjaguwar]

Curious what you think of Chris's comments on Kathy's "plan?"

I did read that article too, and... I dunno. The headline made it seem more definitive that Palpatine in particular was the “plan” all along, but a couple parts in particular seemed like walking back the idea, on the part of Chris Terrio. From the IGN article:

In it, Terrio possibly credits Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy with wanting to bring back Palpatine. "Kathy Kennedy and [SVP] Michelle Rejwan had a clear plan for where they wanted things to end," Terrio said. "They had clear plans about certain narrative marks they wanted us to hit. They also gave us a lot of freedom within that.

When asked if Palpatine had always been the plan, prior to Episode IX, Terrio said "Well, I can’t speak to Kathy’s overall intent. That was certainly discussed and was discussed before I ever came on. Kathy had this overall vision that we had to be telling the same story for nine episodes. Although from the sleight of hand of Episode VII and Episode VIII, you wouldn’t necessarily know immediately that we were telling the same story. She thought it would be a very strong end for the ninth movie.

In my opinion, if Kennedy really thinks she had a “clear plan” about any of this, then I kinda question her judgment on that. The results certainly don’t make it seem like there was a clear plan.

 

[sztriki]

Curious what you think of Chris's comments on Kathy's "plan?"

Redirect Notice

Also curious as to what you think of Colin Trevorrow's comments on Palpatine not even being mentioned when he was about to helm Episode 9?

Okay, go back to TFA. Who did people really think Kylo was talking to? Who was showing him the power of the Dark Side? Can't be Vader, he's gone. Only leaves one other person.

There were plans of having a Darth Vader force ghost that would change back and forth to Anakin in TFA, if there's anyone on this board that knows this it's got to be you. The idea that Kylo was not talking to Vader's spirit was nowhere in TFA and please don't say that it always was logical that Palps was impersonating Vader and how it perfectly falls in place.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

There were plans of having a Darth Vader force ghost that would change back and forth to Anakin in TFA, if there's anyone on this board that knows this it's got to be you. The idea that Kylo was not talking to Vader's spirit was nowhere in TFA and please don't say that it always was logical that Palps was impersonating Vader and how it perfectly falls in place.

Thinking on the fly here, so bear with me... But, wouldn’t it have been more interesting if this had ended up being something where it WAS Vader communicating to his grandson through the mask? Essentially, a reversal of the thing that Obi-Wan told Luke about how the “good man who was your father was destroyed” when he became Vader. (Note that I’m not suggesting this is what happened, just that it’s an alternate thread they could have run with). What if, despite the redemption of Anakin, the man, the Dark Side part of him (aka the Vader part) sort of... continued to exist as some sort of body-less, malevolent force?

I’ve always kind of had an issue with how sure Obi-Wan was that Anakin had ceased to exist when he went Dark Side, and how wrong he ended up being, basically, when Luke succeeded in the end. To me this would’ve been a way of adding some depth to the whole idea of light side, dark side, and what happens to force-sensitive people after death.

Feel free to disregard this rambling fan fiction and carry on

 

[Captain Dunsel]

I can’t wait for episode 10!

Your click-bait wish has been granted, courtesy of Mr. Zeroh.

Episode 10: This! Is! DAGOBAH!!!

 

[edge10]

Your click-bait wish has been granted, courtesy of Mr. Zeroh.

View attachment 1096829

Episode 10: This Is DAGOBAH!

Wow! Maybe Rian will be able to direct!

 

[Captain Dunsel]

An interesting take on story structure...

 

[Joek3rr]

I did read that article too, and... I dunno. The headline made it seem more definitive that Palpatine in particular was the “plan” all along, but a couple parts in particular seemed like walking back the idea, on the part of Chris Terrio. From the IGN article:





In my opinion, if Kennedy really thinks she had a “clear plan” about any of this, then I kinda question her judgment on that. The results certainly don’t make it seem like there was a clear plan.

In my head I think Kathy "planned" it like this. She came with a point A, a point B, and point C. But how the story went from A to B to C, was up to each film maker.

 

[Joek3rr]

Also curious as to what you think of Colin Trevorrow's comments on Palpatine not even being mentioned when he was about to helm Episode 9?


There were plans of having a Darth Vader force ghost that would change back and forth to Anakin in TFA, if there's anyone on this board that knows this it's got to be you. The idea that Kylo was not talking to Vader's spirit was nowhere in TFA and please don't say that it always was logical that Palps was impersonating Vader and how it perfectly falls in place.

(August 2013)

Just guessing, but it sounds like something Ian McCaig came up with.

And there's further complications, why would Anakin speak through the helmet, why wouldn't he just appear to Ben, like we've seen him do. Plus Dark Side users can't become Force ghosts in canon. And why on earth would he be showing Ben the Dark Side? Anakin has been redeemed. Doesn't make sense unless....

......they were going for a SWTOR Revan concept. With him having split into a dark half and a light half.

I really hope we get a making of the Sequel Trilogy book. I want to know the good, bad, and ugly.

 

[Psab keel]

Even if they do make them I'm sure they will be full of the kind of historical revisionism that plagued George's accounts of the series. The difference is that George kept changing his mind whereas Disney/ Lucasfilm wants to cover up all the drama with a false veneer of positivity. Both are taxing so I can't say one is better or worse than the other. It's just the reality of it.

 

[Solo4114]

I HAVE NOW SEEN THIS AND I HAVE THOUGHTS.

First, I really enjoyed it. And I was really disappointed by it. And I was also quite satisfied with it. And I feel like there will always be a part of me thinking "But what if..."

Now, with that out of the way, into the details.

JJ Abrams is a master craftsman of emotional beats. He is absolutely *amazing* at eliciting an emotional response from the audience. He knows exactly how to use this or that cue or trigger to get you to feel what he wants you to feel.

He is also...not an especially good storyteller. I don't think he really aspires to be, though. I've seen enough of his body of work at this point that I think he's quite content doing exactly what he does, and doing it really, really well, and that's basically all he wants to do. We should all be so lucky to find a job that we do especially well, and be entirely content in just the doing of it, I suppose.

There are many aspects of this film that I really enjoyed. I liked Ben's redemption arc, even though it was heavily telegraphed in the previous film. I can tell that JJ is absolutely a fan of this series on a surface level, and he is brilliant at providing fan service that does not overly piss me off. This is not, as it turns out, quite as easy as it might seem. George Lucas himself was...not great at the fan service stuff because he very often both heavily lampshaded the moment, and also just kind of threw it in there because HEY 'MEMBA THIS?! I find Lucas' Star Wars universe to be very much a "fishbowl" galaxy, where everything happens in the same locations, and everyone is interconnected and Chewie was Yoda's roommate in college. This was better quality fan service, with just old favs showing up in this or that moment, and I'm basically fine with that.

Some stuff was...not great. The Ben/Rey kiss was weird and unearned. Actually, there was a bunch of weird relationship stuff in this film and stuff that was clearly missing. Like, there's a point where I think Finn is going to confess his love to Rey, which is weird given how TLJ played out. And then he seems like he's gonna diss Rose because he's into his new ex-Stormtrooper gal pal and oh wait, now she's maybe being hit on by Lando? And then Poe is kinda into Rey and they're head-faking a weird love triangle except he wants to kiss Keri Russel because hey, who doesn't? All of that felt...shoehorned in and very awkwardly so. Also, we never found out what Finn was gonna tell Rey.

The thing with the First Order spy was also dumb and unearned. I get that Hux is sick and tired of being Kylo Ren's butt-monkey, but seriously, that was extremely poorly handled and then boom he's out of the film and off to collect his check. This is also a JJ thing: introduce something, make it seem important, look at this flashy thing over here, what was I talking about, never mind we're on to something else. It all happens so fast that you don't have a ton of time to think about it, which is good because if you did, you'd realize that it's just nonsense.

Now for the bigger stuff. Rey being a Palpatine is SUPER ******* DUMB. Who was Palpatine off boning to beget himself a son, who then marries the White Princess, has Rey, and gets himself killed for his trouble?! I also LOATHE the bloodlines stuff. Loathe it. One of the things I absolutely loved about TLJ was that Rey was powerful...because Rey was powerful. Maybe the Force just...chose her because she was who the Force needed, even though she was a nobody. I loved that message: even a nobody can be a hero. To me that's a far more powerful message than JJ's "Yer a Palpatine, Rey, and a thumpin' good 'un at that, I'd wager!" message. Like, Palpatine was able to shoot lightning because...uh...he was a Palpatine. Was his dad able to shoot lightning, too?

The reveal that Snoke was just some vat grown Emperor clone was equally dumb. But also typical mystery box ********, which I expected, so I was able to be like "Whatever, JJ. You suck," and move on.

Overall, I think that TROS, like TFA, is a decent modernized retelling of ROTJ, with a few bits tilted sideways, and a couple new beats added. And that's really all JJ wanted to do, it seems. It actually reminds me of when I went to see the Stones during their '98 Bridges to Babylon tour. Someone told me that "The Rolling Stones today are the absolute best Rolling Stones cover band out there today." And that's really all I think JJ wanted to be: the best George Lucas cover band out there. And if that's all you went in expecting or wanting, that's exactly what you got and, hey, it really *is* a damn fine cover act as cover acts go.

But I'll always wonder what this trilogy would have been if Rian Johnson had had all three films to himself, and production was spaced out over a span of about 2-3 years per film. I think he set the franchise up for some really, really interesting things that you could do with it. And I hope Disney still goes forward with his trilogy, because I would LOVE to see where he takes things.

It's ironic, actually. That's another way in which this new trilogy mirrors the OT: you had a not-great storyteller running the first and third films, and someone who actually has *ideas* about what film can do and the messages it can offer, and can craft a story doing the second film. (I know people **** on the Canto Bight sequence and the slow motion chase, but I've come to really enjoy them.)

Anyway, these films are much more enjoyable than the prequels were, and I'll enjoy watching them again with my kid some day. I hope this isn't the last we see of Rey, Finn, and Poe, and I hope they're served by someone able to do more interesting things than JJ Abrams. But for a wrap-up of this series with plenty of "rule of cool" even if it doesn't make a ton of sense....yeah, I really enjoyed TROS.


It's strange. I'm both perfectly satisfied by and enjoyed watching the film, and I think JJ is a total hack, the Sequel Trilogy was not nearly as good as it could or should have been, and I continue to hope that Star Wars as a franchise can break out of the rut created by the fetishistic worship of the OT.

 

[Psab keel]

fetishistic worship of the OT

I think that's a fairly extreme sentiment though I suspect it's in reaction to the way the debate between the new films and the originals have gone. A bit of perspective on my part and I can admit that the OT is not without it's flaws, but on the whole they are the benchmark by which every Star Wars film since has been judged and for good reason. They have stood the test of time.

You and I have long been in agreement that this series really needs to break away from the way we know it if it's going to survive and from all accounts it seems the Mandalorian is a step in the right direction. Not being beholden to any particular characters or events of which we have previous knowledge will be what helps make or break Star Wars as far as seeing that potential storytelling power realized.

Which brings me back to another point you and I have also agreed on in the past. If only Disney had started with something like the Mandalorian and left the Skywalker saga alone. Either way I'm glad you mostly enjoyed the movie. It's interesting to see how the fans have responded to this particular episode. It's such a mixed response overall. Part scathing and part enjoyment.

 

[Joek3rr]

Even if they do make them I'm sure they will be full of the kind of historical revisionism that plagued George's accounts of the series. The difference is that George kept changing his mind whereas Disney/ Lucasfilm wants to cover up all the drama with a false veneer of positivity. Both are taxing so I can't say one is better or worse than the other. It's just the reality of it.

I don't know, Bob Iger didn't spare the dirty details in his book.

 

[Paul Andrew]

I HAVE NOW SEEN THIS AND I HAVE THOUGHTS.

First, I really enjoyed it. And I was really disappointed by it. And I was also quite satisfied with it. And I feel like there will always be a part of me thinking "But what if..."

Now, with that out of the way, into the details.

JJ Abrams is a master craftsman of emotional beats. He is absolutely *amazing* at eliciting an emotional response from the audience. He knows exactly how to use this or that cue or trigger to get you to feel what he wants you to feel.

He is also...not an especially good storyteller. I don't think he really aspires to be, though. I've seen enough of his body of work at this point that I think he's quite content doing exactly what he does, and doing it really, really well, and that's basically all he wants to do. We should all be so lucky to find a job that we do especially well, and be entirely content in just the doing of it, I suppose.

There are many aspects of this film that I really enjoyed. I liked Ben's redemption arc, even though it was heavily telegraphed in the previous film. I can tell that JJ is absolutely a fan of this series on a surface level, and he is brilliant at providing fan service that does not overly piss me off. This is not, as it turns out, quite as easy as it might seem. George Lucas himself was...not great at the fan service stuff because he very often both heavily lampshaded the moment, and also just kind of threw it in there because HEY 'MEMBA THIS?! I find Lucas' Star Wars universe to be very much a "fishbowl" galaxy, where everything happens in the same locations, and everyone is interconnected and Chewie was Yoda's roommate in college. This was better quality fan service, with just old favs showing up in this or that moment, and I'm basically fine with that.

Some stuff was...not great. The Ben/Rey kiss was weird and unearned. Actually, there was a bunch of weird relationship stuff in this film and stuff that was clearly missing. Like, there's a point where I think Finn is going to confess his love to Rey, which is weird given how TLJ played out. And then he seems like he's gonna diss Rose because he's into his new ex-Stormtrooper gal pal and oh wait, now she's maybe being hit on by Lando? And then Poe is kinda into Rey and they're head-faking a weird love triangle except he wants to kiss Keri Russel because hey, who doesn't? All of that felt...shoehorned in and very awkwardly so. Also, we never found out what Finn was gonna tell Rey.

The thing with the First Order spy was also dumb and unearned. I get that Hux is sick and tired of being Kylo Ren's butt-monkey, but seriously, that was extremely poorly handled and then boom he's out of the film and off to collect his check. This is also a JJ thing: introduce something, make it seem important, look at this flashy thing over here, what was I talking about, never mind we're on to something else. It all happens so fast that you don't have a ton of time to think about it, which is good because if you did, you'd realize that it's just nonsense.

Now for the bigger stuff. Rey being a Palpatine is SUPER ******* DUMB. Who was Palpatine off boning to beget himself a son, who then marries the White Princess, has Rey, and gets himself killed for his trouble?! I also LOATHE the bloodlines stuff. Loathe it. One of the things I absolutely loved about TLJ was that Rey was powerful...because Rey was powerful. Maybe the Force just...chose her because she was who the Force needed, even though she was a nobody. I loved that message: even a nobody can be a hero. To me that's a far more powerful message than JJ's "Yer a Palpatine, Rey, and a thumpin' good 'un at that, I'd wager!" message. Like, Palpatine was able to shoot lightning because...uh...he was a Palpatine. Was his dad able to shoot lightning, too?

The reveal that Snoke was just some vat grown Emperor clone was equally dumb. But also typical mystery box ********, which I expected, so I was able to be like "Whatever, JJ. You suck," and move on.

Overall, I think that TROS, like TFA, is a decent modernized retelling of ROTJ, with a few bits tilted sideways, and a couple new beats added. And that's really all JJ wanted to do, it seems. It actually reminds me of when I went to see the Stones during their '98 Bridges to Babylon tour. Someone told me that "The Rolling Stones today are the absolute best Rolling Stones cover band out there today." And that's really all I think JJ wanted to be: the best George Lucas cover band out there. And if that's all you went in expecting or wanting, that's exactly what you got and, hey, it really *is* a damn fine cover act as cover acts go.

But I'll always wonder what this trilogy would have been if Rian Johnson had had all three films to himself, and production was spaced out over a span of about 2-3 years per film. I think he set the franchise up for some really, really interesting things that you could do with it. And I hope Disney still goes forward with his trilogy, because I would LOVE to see where he takes things.

It's ironic, actually. That's another way in which this new trilogy mirrors the OT: you had a not-great storyteller running the first and third films, and someone who actually has *ideas* about what film can do and the messages it can offer, and can craft a story doing the second film. (I know people **** on the Canto Bight sequence and the slow motion chase, but I've come to really enjoy them.)

Anyway, these films are much more enjoyable than the prequels were, and I'll enjoy watching them again with my kid some day. I hope this isn't the last we see of Rey, Finn, and Poe, and I hope they're served by someone able to do more interesting things than JJ Abrams. But for a wrap-up of this series with plenty of "rule of cool" even if it doesn't make a ton of sense....yeah, I really enjoyed TROS.


It's strange. I'm both perfectly satisfied by and enjoyed watching the film, and I think JJ is a total hack, the Sequel Trilogy was not nearly as good as it could or should have been, and I continue to hope that Star Wars as a franchise can break out of the rut created by the fetishistic worship of the OT.

Can't agree with you more. This movie made me FEEL great, but it's kinda varying degrees of nonsense all over if you pick the plot apart.

If you look at the new trilogy as a whole it looks like a lot of wasted potential now. TFA set the stage in a super familiar fashion, TLJ took the stage and set it on it's ear and in so doing hinted at the possibility of doing some NEW AND INTERESTING **** in the next movie, and then TRoS thumped the stage back down and said 'Hey look, it's still Star Wars'.

And I legit like it just fine, had fun with each movie. But it could have done more than Rebels vs Empire and lone new Jedi & pals again. I really hope the next batch of films stretches the mold in some way.

 

[DarkHelmet]

It was ok. Combination of a fan film and Buck Rogers.

Humor in the wrong places and awkward.

I'm sorry, but Chewbacca still looks horrible. I've seen better fan made costumes.

My 24 year old son, who was raised on SW said "makes me appreciate the prequels a little more".

I think a ghost cameo from Hayden would've tied ALL the movies together.

Oh well. Glad it's done. It's been a long 42 years.

 

[jhazard]

I don't know, Bob Iger didn't spare the dirty details in his book.

Wasn't Rinzler working on one for TFA, and then was let go, or something to that effect? I think Disney wants to control that narrative 100%...

 

[The Brahma Bull]

Because unless they wanted to make films that focused on a smaller stories. That don't affect galaxy at large. Their going to step on someone's toes. Legends covers from thousands of years before the Old Republic to hundreds of years of ROTJ. There isn't much room for a big story. I mean you think people got upset over this stuff, if they had started making films that contradicted KOTOR or what have you. People would have still been mad. And to make things worse if I recall George kinda altered the timeline of events for the Old Republic era.

Ignore KOTOR and the animated shows. For most people this is some meaningless stuff on the edges. They stepped on the whole foot of the majority of SW fans with the ST and making everything wrong they could do wrong especially with tlj.

And if you ignore Kotor as a game, the Story of it with a few adaptions is great for any size of screen. The old Lore which Disney wiped out of the canon has some really great stories to offer that are much better than anything Disney came up with.

Is SW a financial success, maybe, could've been a bigger success than Marvel? If done right, with a good story, well written characters and respect for the OT, of course.

 

[sztriki]

Thinking on the fly here, so bear with me... But, wouldn’t it have been more interesting if this had ended up being something where it WAS Vader communicating to his grandson through the mask? Essentially, a reversal of the thing that Obi-Wan told Luke about how the “good man who was your father was destroyed” when he became Vader. (Note that I’m not suggesting this is what happened, just that it’s an alternate thread they could have run with). What if, despite the redemption of Anakin, the man, the Dark Side part of him (aka the Vader part) sort of... continued to exist as some sort of body-less, malevolent force?

I’ve always kind of had an issue with how sure Obi-Wan was that Anakin had ceased to exist when he went Dark Side, and how wrong he ended up being, basically, when Luke succeeded in the end. To me this would’ve been a way of adding some depth to the whole idea of light side, dark side, and what happens to force-sensitive people after death.

Feel free to disregard this rambling fan fiction and carry on

The book link that Joek3rr posted suggests this. I dunno how well it would have gone down. Plenty of stuff that sounds great on paper and I disliked the way it was realized (dark and disillusioned Luke) and there's some bad ideas that I shrugged off and rolled with it. It's all about execution really for me.

In my head I think Kathy "planned" it like this. She came with a point A, a point B, and point C. But how the story went from A to B to C, was up to each film maker.

I really don't think KK is to be in charge of the story. She's the producer, her job is not to write stories, maybe as you say set some pointers out (Kylo redeemed, dies in Rey's arms, etc) but what I think her job as a producer should have been to get the right people in one room and outline the trilogy and keep an eye on every filmmaker in terms of how much leeway they have.

And there's further complications, why would Anakin speak through the helmet, why wouldn't he just appear to Ben, like we've seen him do. Plus Dark Side users can't become Force ghosts in canon. And why on earth would he be showing Ben the Dark Side? Anakin has been redeemed. Doesn't make sense unless....

......they were going for a SWTOR Revan concept. With him having split into a dark half and a light half.

I agree with everything you say, it does sound that the idea was a weird combination of dark and light. Again, not sure how that would've gone down as it would have sort of soiled on the climax of ROTJ. Dunno...what I'm saying is that I don't believe that anyone had Palpie putting on a facade in mind when they were writing TFA. I'm more inclined to think that the objects themselves had some sort of connection, the burnt helmet, the Graflex, etc but then it was dropped. That's obviously pure speculation on my end.

I really hope we get a making of the Sequel Trilogy book. I want to know the good, bad, and ugly.

You and I both. I rewatched the featurettes on TFA bluray the other day and they're so bland. It's a lot of lip service and not any real information or development and I'm not looking for scandals and fights and whatnot.