Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)
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Joek3rr
Master Member
Because unless they wanted to make films that focused on a smaller stories. That don't affect galaxy at large. Their going to step on someone's toes. Legends covers from thousands of years before the Old Republic to hundreds of years of ROTJ. There isn't much room for a big story. I mean you think people got upset over this stuff, if they had started making films that contradicted KOTOR or what have you. People would have still been mad. And to make things worse if I recall George kinda altered the timeline of events for the Old Republic era.
Toadmeister
Sr Member
Bigdaddy
Master Member
Joek3rr
Master Member
Maybe she just doesn't want to take it off?
cboath
Master Member
It's nearly impossible to say they didn't blow it with this trilogy.
That said, marvel laid out their plan slowly and built and got more ambitious as they moved forward. These guys had the history of SW behind them, didn't build it themselves, or any bit of it at all, and tried to capitalize on it thinking with the name they could do no wrong. They were wrong. Especially that second guy.
They stuck their foot it in massively when they tried to turn it into a cap stone for the whole thing. That was something they were incapable of doing, clearly. Kind of like with part 9...they tried to put a cap stone on something that was already basically capped. 3 left things open to the point that the bad guy had to fall in the next set. Everything was completed in the second set, there was no need for a third set. If you insist on that third set, it has to be disconnected from what came before (threat wise). As George said long ago, he had no plans for a sequel set. He he could be he'd have to think 'what could i have luke do next?'.
I sort of get how it happened (the ST we got). Disney bought it and wanted to kick it back in to gear. Nothing wrong with that. But i'd gather they wanted the big 3 in it to draw interest more than just the name. Then tried to mash it together. Personally, i'd still like to read george's treatments. In depth in midichlorians or not. In the end, i think TLJ just hamstrung them too much. Regardless of what anyone thinks of TFA (i liked it), it got the interest up big, did well, and a bit of rehash or not, was pretty good. TLJ fractured things badly and ended nearly ever story line. Not good when you have to do a pt 3 in two years time. So part 3 had to cap off all 3, try and repair the damage and restore goodwill. I think they did it about as well as you possibly could without turning it into a 4 hour movie.
Sorry, but after TLJ the suits at both LFL and Disney knew they had no shot at equalling Endgame. No chance at all. In fact, they'd be dumb as hell to go in making 9 thinking that. No SW trilogy has had the third one make the most money. No reason to expect it here, especially with the feelings TLJ engendered. If they go in thinking they're going to make the best selling movie ever, they'll fail, massively. I think that's why DC fails, they want to cash checks not make a good movie, but that's another issue.
Trying to use china to gauge SW is odd. It's never done well there. Ever. There were huge stories on that when TLJ came out.
As for the advertising. I can't speak to the world. But here in the states i saw direct commercials rarely. And this time, i saw much fewer of the cheesy, free advertising like 'get the nissan rogue....Star Wars the Return of Skywalker in theaters Dec 20'. With the last 2 that was damn near every other commercial on TV. You had, and still have vendors throwing money at them to use SW in adds.
cboath
Master Member
Jagjaguwar
Sr Member
It’s interesting, I still like all 3 of the films in this sequel trilogy in different ways, but many of the points raised in this article are things that I agree with, and have felt over the course of the release of this trilogy. I don’t agree with every word, but a pretty interesting overview of what went wrong:
www.pastemagazine.com
I still find this sort of thing much more interesting than any debate about box office earnings, or subjective arguments about “good movie” vs “bad movie.”
It Was a Total Lack of Planning That Finally Killed Star Wars
Paste Magazine is your source for the best music, movies, TV, comedy, videogames, books, comics, craft beer, politics and more. Discover your favorite albums and films.
www.pastemagazine.com
I still find this sort of thing much more interesting than any debate about box office earnings, or subjective arguments about “good movie” vs “bad movie.”
mattycsi
Master Member
I saw no TV spots here in the UK, not saying they werent there, jusy never on when Ive been watching.
Also, I've had nothing popping up in my facebook feeds, which is strange as I'm all over Star Wars and sci fi stuff that shows up on there.
Next to no toys in the shops either. To be honest, I wouldnt be at all surprised if a ton of people didnt even know the movie was out.
Joek3rr
Master Member
It’s interesting, I still like all 3 of the films in this sequel trilogy in different ways, but many of the points raised in this article are things that I agree with, and have felt over the course of the release of this trilogy. I don’t agree with every word, but a pretty interesting overview of what went wrong:
It Was a Total Lack of Planning That Finally Killed Star Wars
Paste Magazine is your source for the best music, movies, TV, comedy, videogames, books, comics, craft beer, politics and more. Discover your favorite albums and films.
I still find this sort of thing much more interesting than any debate about box office earnings, or subjective arguments about “good movie” vs “bad movie.”
Curious what you think of Chris's comments on Kathy's "plan?"
cboath
Master Member
The pastemagazine article nails it i think.
It's possible they're screw up of letting RJ toss everything in TLJ screwed up a possible overall narrative where we find out palps is pulling the strings in Pt2 had jj run start to finish.
After seeing IX, what JJ did in the end, does tie things together for the ST (not all 9). The problem with that is, it just completely feels tacked on at the end when you look at it from an overall complete package of 7-9. You can make the snoke was made by palpatine thing work, but you have to have clues along the way. Whispers that Snoke is taking orders from someone. Or he's seen talking to someone via holo's in 7 and 8...maybe after Snoke gets killed, he reveals himself to Rey/Kylo, etc and that's where pt 2 ends. We know it's been him and he strikes a big blow, the end.
But no. The first article nails it better than i thought possible. Hell, i'll even acknowledge that a lot of things they explain RJ did were good (not dependent on bloodlines, anyone can be force sensitive, etc). But, as it boils down to, each of the 3 crapped on what came before.
JJ trashed the success of Han/Luke/Leia, and ostensibly destroyed all before the movie even started. Han/Leia had a kid who fell to the dark side and destroyed their relationship, Luke lost Ben to the dark side and quite on the galaxy, etc.
RJ came in trashed snoke, tried to make rey a nobody, trashed luke further, killed him off rather unceremoniously, trashed the mask, etc.
JJ came back and basically trashed nearly everything RJ did.
None of that has squat to do with whether or not you like what they did or not, it's simply factual. Seems to me to lack leadership in a BIG way. And that falls on a single person in this case. George could hire different directors because he was the single force in charge of the story. Yeah, in the OT he had people to tell him no, but the calls were still his. This missed that in a giant way. Maybe there was a basic plan, i don't know. But if there was, way too much deviation was allowed. Which, is a failure of leadership.
People keep trying to tie it to marvel, but one thing i never heard about any of the marvel flicks was that they trashed the comics. I know they changed lots of things, but the inference i got/get is that they stayed true to the stories or characters they were using. Again, regardless of your opinion of any of the movies, a large group of people feel that in each of 7, 8, and 9, what came before wasn't respected. You shouldn't need to run it by fans to pick up on that. I guarantee you marvel didn't.
What struck me about Marvel was what Feige said about it when asked how they did it when the first avengers was released. He said there was a basic plan to get to the avengers, but first thing was Iron Man. The goal wasn't make avengers or capt america or anything, it was to make the best Iron Man movie they could, because if it wasn't good, all those plans wouldn't matter because the next movie wouldn't ever get made. The goal should always be to make the best movie you can and that doesn't seem to have been the top priority in any of these. Ego, arrogance, and personal hubris seemed to be the things at the top of this and the end result suffered.
You can't make a series of anything without a singular vision. Marvel had and has that singular vision with Feige and whoever does the planning at marvel. It simply doesn't seem that that exists for SW. And THAT is the part that must exist. I'm far from saying following the Marvel 'formula'. I'm saying have a singular vision drive by someone and that they are they ultimate final say. Have a vision and stick to it. This trilogy had like 4 or 5 visions and no one saying 'this is the way'.
It's possible they're screw up of letting RJ toss everything in TLJ screwed up a possible overall narrative where we find out palps is pulling the strings in Pt2 had jj run start to finish.
After seeing IX, what JJ did in the end, does tie things together for the ST (not all 9). The problem with that is, it just completely feels tacked on at the end when you look at it from an overall complete package of 7-9. You can make the snoke was made by palpatine thing work, but you have to have clues along the way. Whispers that Snoke is taking orders from someone. Or he's seen talking to someone via holo's in 7 and 8...maybe after Snoke gets killed, he reveals himself to Rey/Kylo, etc and that's where pt 2 ends. We know it's been him and he strikes a big blow, the end.
But no. The first article nails it better than i thought possible. Hell, i'll even acknowledge that a lot of things they explain RJ did were good (not dependent on bloodlines, anyone can be force sensitive, etc). But, as it boils down to, each of the 3 crapped on what came before.
JJ trashed the success of Han/Luke/Leia, and ostensibly destroyed all before the movie even started. Han/Leia had a kid who fell to the dark side and destroyed their relationship, Luke lost Ben to the dark side and quite on the galaxy, etc.
RJ came in trashed snoke, tried to make rey a nobody, trashed luke further, killed him off rather unceremoniously, trashed the mask, etc.
JJ came back and basically trashed nearly everything RJ did.
None of that has squat to do with whether or not you like what they did or not, it's simply factual. Seems to me to lack leadership in a BIG way. And that falls on a single person in this case. George could hire different directors because he was the single force in charge of the story. Yeah, in the OT he had people to tell him no, but the calls were still his. This missed that in a giant way. Maybe there was a basic plan, i don't know. But if there was, way too much deviation was allowed. Which, is a failure of leadership.
People keep trying to tie it to marvel, but one thing i never heard about any of the marvel flicks was that they trashed the comics. I know they changed lots of things, but the inference i got/get is that they stayed true to the stories or characters they were using. Again, regardless of your opinion of any of the movies, a large group of people feel that in each of 7, 8, and 9, what came before wasn't respected. You shouldn't need to run it by fans to pick up on that. I guarantee you marvel didn't.
What struck me about Marvel was what Feige said about it when asked how they did it when the first avengers was released. He said there was a basic plan to get to the avengers, but first thing was Iron Man. The goal wasn't make avengers or capt america or anything, it was to make the best Iron Man movie they could, because if it wasn't good, all those plans wouldn't matter because the next movie wouldn't ever get made. The goal should always be to make the best movie you can and that doesn't seem to have been the top priority in any of these. Ego, arrogance, and personal hubris seemed to be the things at the top of this and the end result suffered.
You can't make a series of anything without a singular vision. Marvel had and has that singular vision with Feige and whoever does the planning at marvel. It simply doesn't seem that that exists for SW. And THAT is the part that must exist. I'm far from saying following the Marvel 'formula'. I'm saying have a singular vision drive by someone and that they are they ultimate final say. Have a vision and stick to it. This trilogy had like 4 or 5 visions and no one saying 'this is the way'.
It’s interesting, I still like all 3 of the films in this sequel trilogy in different ways, but many of the points raised in this article are things that I agree with, and have felt over the course of the release of this trilogy. I don’t agree with every word, but a pretty interesting overview of what went wrong:
It Was a Total Lack of Planning That Finally Killed Star Wars
Paste Magazine is your source for the best music, movies, TV, comedy, videogames, books, comics, craft beer, politics and more. Discover your favorite albums and films.
I still find this sort of thing much more interesting than any debate about box office earnings, or subjective arguments about “good movie” vs “bad movie.”
That article is probably the best, most logical discussion of what went wrong with the ST. Noteworthy quotes:
- "Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker, a film so desperate to tie disconnected threads together that it often feels like it’s being frantically edited live, as you watch it"
- TFA was a "feature-length tease of a dialogue-less Luke Skywalker "
- "One thing that apparently no one at Disney asked: “Hey Rian, did you like anything in JJ Abrams' The Force Awakens?” Because if someone had asked that, one can only imagine Johnson would have replied “I sure didn’t, and I’m not gonna use any of it, thanks.” "
- "If there’s a uniting theme here, it’s Johnson’s vision saying “We don’t need ____” from Abrams’ vision. ""
- "JJ Abrams arrives back on the scene after The Last Jedi like a parent who left their kid alone for the weekend in the family mansion in an ’80s party movie, returning home to find the house completely trashed and possibly on fire."
- "Where Johnson’s film functioned like a rebuke of Force Awakens, Abrams will make his second film as a rebuke of The Last Jedi. And all the fans will pay the price, because Abrams is about to cram an entire trilogy’s worth of plot points and goofy revelations into one feature film. "
- "With his Emperor analogue having been killed off by Johnson, Abrams exasperatedly throws his hands up in the air and says something to the effect of “screw it, we’re just bringing back Palpatine then.” Never mind the fact that there’s been no mention of, allusion to, or workable explanation for the presence of Emperor Palpatine in the two previous films of the so-called trilogy. Now he’s been “behind everything from the beginning,” which we learn when a character helpfully explains “he’s been behind everything from the beginning.” Snoke, turns out, was merely a pawn, either created by or controlled by Palpatine from behind the scenes. Every impulse ever felt by Kylo Ren? Palpatine. The rise of the First Order? Palpatine. Rain on your wedding day? Palpatine."
- "The galaxy [according to RJ's TLJ] has grown cold toward the Resistance’s calls for aid? Well, now all it takes to assemble the largest armada in the history of the galaxy is Lando Calrissian cruising around the Core Systems in the Falcon for an afternoon. Everything always seems to come back to “Whatever you can write, I can write the opposite.” "
Joek3rr
Master Member
Never mind that Palpatine's theme played during Rey's torture by Snoke?
I mean the moment Snoke was killed without any background. I knew that he wasn't as important as some thought. I began to immediately look for the other big baddie. Again look at his name, Snoke, comes from the term smoke and mirrors, which is means to mislead. Snoke was a shell game. Chris Terrio just said almost the same thing.
cboath
Master Member
Even if that was the plan (and you won't find may who think it was), a tiny bit of music isn't enough of a hint. Think of it in terms of writing...it's called foreshadowing. The rest of the click doesn't even allude to squat other than Kylo taking over the entire FO and Hux not liking it. Properly done, you drop that before TLJ ends - either that is in fact palps or there is someone else pulling the string. Either way, they failed.
Mr Webber
Master Member
Hmm, they either thought they had a sure fire winner or a case of lets not waste any further cash on this thing than necessary.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Okay, go back to TFA. Who did people really think Kylo was talking to? Who was showing him the power of the Dark Side? Can't be Vader, he's gone. Only leaves one other person.
Toadmeister
Sr Member
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