Toadmeister
Sr Member
I don't disagree, but overall it just sort of smells like lack of continuity.
Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
d_jedi1
Sr Member
I'm not 100% sure that's ever been confirmed.
I know there was a line in the ROTS novel that implied that his public face prior to the fight with mace was a "mask" but
A: I don't think that's canon
and
B: that may not necessarily mean what you think it to mean.
harrisonp
Sr Member
That being his true form elicits a “show me the money” from me. As presented within only the films it is pretty clear that he is affected physically by that fight, and had been a normal looking man prior, even in the holograms where he is presenting as Sideous. I get that he’s the most powerful evil ever etc. but too often I think every aspect of his character is attributed to that and makes it too easy for inconsistencies to be hand waved away.
I walked out of TLJ with some very angry people (you remember who you were). My assessment of that film? I thought then and still think now that it is the second most interesting Star Wars film made. It had a lot of issues, specifically, the humor, the ham-fisted handling of all things “woke” and everything on Canto Bight, but still, there was an underlying story between Luke and Rey and especially Kylo and Rey that I found thought-provoking and compelling. I wanted more.
Walking out of RoS, I want to say I hated the film, but hate requires passion or at the very least, strong feeling. What I am feeling the most right now is apathy. I just don’t care… and therein lies the problem, not only with this film but with this entire trilogy. I couldn’t care less about Finn/Poe (two completely interchangeable and empty shells). Rey runs a close second. I don’t care who Rey really is. I don’t care about her story or the ongoing Resistance. In fact, I don’t care about any of the good guys, sadly, including Leia (who I once loved). The only character that has been of interest or has had any depth has been Kylo Ren, and for the most part, his scenes were the only ones I enjoyed in this film. There was a LOT of Finn and Poe and “the gang” but none of it felt genuine. None of it had real heart. Every moment that was meant to be heartfelt just came off as melodramatic or cheesy. I never felt the heroes were in any danger and as with TLJ, any danger they did face was continually undermined with lame humor and cheesy one-liners.
Dialogue: This film’s dialogue is composed entirely of three things: painful exposition, horrible clichés, endless rehashing of Star Wars lines we already know. That’s it. Nothing more. I hate to bring up the Mandalorian, but it is incredible that this show has managed to create two brand new Star Wars catchphrases in a very short period, while this entire trilogy has spawned none.
Cliched Scenarios: Just how many cliched scenarios can you possibly pack into a single film? The answer is, ALL OF THEM. There were so many eye-rolling moments or painfully obvious moments that it became tedious to watch them. Why? Why go through the same tired actions. The same tired challenges. The same tired reactions. I think of Rogue One and Cassian killing the spy. That was an amazing character moment and something I would have never expected from a “good” guy. This trilogy has played with the idea of what makes one good or bad for three films now and has yet to produce one of those types of moments.
Forced Nostalgia/Emotional Throwbacks: Stacked on top of the cliched moments are moments that are solely created to pull at your heartstrings, but they never do. These are characters I have loved for 40 years, and yet, the attempt to highjack my emotions is so obvious and handled so clunkily that we never get a moment like Peter Parker and Tony Stark at the end of IW or Endgame. Not one moment! I have heard so many people say they cried multiple times during the film. When? Why? The only crying I did was internal as my inner child was kicked in the face over and over again.
Themes: As I mentioned above, there were some interesting themes in TLJ, especially the relationship between Kylo and Rey, and I greatly appreciated those. This film threw that out the window and put them back in the cookie-cutter good girl/bad guy roles. No nuance at all. Nothing of interest. Just bad guys and good guys duking it out. That was cool when I was 4, but now I want something a bit deeper. TJL gave me a taste and RoS snatched it back away, going for Transformers level cheap thrills. Don’t tell me these are kids' movies. The themes touched on in TLJ are not childish in any way, but very adult-driven and with a lot of things, a child would never be able to wrap its head around. These are NOT only for kids and never have been, but the carrot that was dangled that might have given us adults things to muse upon was snatched away and we have been left with little more than an empty CG extravaganza.
Pacing: Speaking of Transformers and bad filmmaking, this film was so frenetic with so many jump cuts and constant motion that there was never an opportunity to appreciate anything. So many cool trooper designs that I only know what they look like because I have seen the toys. You sure wouldn’t know from seeing them in the film because there were cuts every 6 frames. Call me old, but I prefer to appreciate the designs and efforts put into the film. It doesn’t hurt to let the camera linger for a second or two. Pacing and editing can add to the sense of excitement but here it just felt like it was constantly “gotta get to the next thing” and so you never care about the thing you are seeing. Sith Troopers, the Knights of Ren, etc… all had seconds on the screen to the point that you question why they even bothered.
Lore: Some people are going to get up in arms because of the lore changes. I have already seen it compared to the horrendous midiclorian fiasco from the prequels. For me, I’d have to care enough to get upset, and I just don’t care enough. Besides, I honestly didn’t think the one major change was all that bad. I just think someone took a single line from TLJ far too literally.
Woke Culture: Forced woke-culture continues to take center-stage in this film and is just as ham-fisted as it has ever been. It is painfully distracting and a good reminder that there is an utter lack of finesse or subtlety and instead is an attitude of “I will force it down your throat until you choke on it.” I am shocked that they didn’t literally make the Force female.
The Force: CG allows for a lot of awesome things, but we all know it can also lead to bad things. Somehow that has been forgotten here. I will never forget Yoda in Ep II leaping about like a Mexican jumping bean and how ridiculous that seemed. This was equally ridiculous, with the characters doing things one would usually associate with video games or cartoons. Yes, there is the force, and yes, it can allow you to do some cool things, but at some point, the characters using the force no longer feel grounded or feel like they have limitations. They seem more like gods then real people we can relate to and cheer for or worry about.
Final Thoughts: This was a bad film to end a series of mostly bad films and I am very happy to be done with these soulless characters and their largely uninteresting story. It seems like those who made this trilogy were equally happy to be done with the Skywalker saga so they could go on to other things. While that hurts because Skywalker is what made Star Wars what it is, if this poor handling of the end of that story means we can now move on then I guess I am happy to be done with it and their continued mishandling of the things I hold dear. It is hard to say why the Mandalorian is so much better, but it is and if this is the future of Star Wars then I welcome that too. There was an insane amount of pandering in RoS, desperately trying to retcon TLJ as well as a pitifully desperate attempt to remind us why we loved Star Wars in the first place by digging up things from the OT. The Mandalorian does that same thing, but somehow it almost always comes across as sincere fan service and an homage or respectful nod where in every instance in RoS it felt like a desperate plea of “please keep spending your money with us because remember you love Star Wars!”
Well, I do still love Star Wars. I will always love Star Wars. I don’t love this movie. I don’t love the trilogy. Efforts like the Mandalorian remind me of my love for the brand and give me hope that future films can be better. But this? This was the worst type of hot garbage.
Final fanboy notes: Kylo Ren’s helmet was cool. Kylo Ren was cool. Kylo Ren is the most complex character of the trilogy with the most interesting story. Rey was, is, and will continue to be a nobody. I wish we could have had a hero we could in any way relate to or cheer for. Maybe next time. Maybe baby Yoda.
PS. Some people (privately) have asked me “so what did you want?” As I mentioned above, I really loved Kylo and Rey’s relationship and I love that despite the crawls telling us that Kylo is evil and the First Order is bad that they never seem like bad guys to themselves. They don’t see themselves as bad guys. I like that idea and especially Kylo’s idea of bringing his beliefs of what order should be with Rey at his side. I also love that you have unguided youth in this film, children with amazing power at their hands (in Hux and Kylo’s instances, they had mechanical might and in Rey’s, there was the force) and they didn’t have teachers to guide them, leaving them to find their own way. I think there is a tremendous amount that could be explored there. For all the shortcomings of TLJ (terrible humor, Canto Bight, etc.), there were some amazing ideas that could have been carried over into this film and explored further. The original trilogy was a classic good vs evil story. This trilogy had the opportunity to blur the lines and in our modern society, the lines have certainly become more blurred. I wanted a story that focuses more on that. TLJ gave us a taste and I wanted more. I got no more with this film as it fell back into platitudes and hammy emptiness. Substance. I wanted substance.
Walking out of RoS, I want to say I hated the film, but hate requires passion or at the very least, strong feeling. What I am feeling the most right now is apathy. I just don’t care… and therein lies the problem, not only with this film but with this entire trilogy. I couldn’t care less about Finn/Poe (two completely interchangeable and empty shells). Rey runs a close second. I don’t care who Rey really is. I don’t care about her story or the ongoing Resistance. In fact, I don’t care about any of the good guys, sadly, including Leia (who I once loved). The only character that has been of interest or has had any depth has been Kylo Ren, and for the most part, his scenes were the only ones I enjoyed in this film. There was a LOT of Finn and Poe and “the gang” but none of it felt genuine. None of it had real heart. Every moment that was meant to be heartfelt just came off as melodramatic or cheesy. I never felt the heroes were in any danger and as with TLJ, any danger they did face was continually undermined with lame humor and cheesy one-liners.
Dialogue: This film’s dialogue is composed entirely of three things: painful exposition, horrible clichés, endless rehashing of Star Wars lines we already know. That’s it. Nothing more. I hate to bring up the Mandalorian, but it is incredible that this show has managed to create two brand new Star Wars catchphrases in a very short period, while this entire trilogy has spawned none.
Cliched Scenarios: Just how many cliched scenarios can you possibly pack into a single film? The answer is, ALL OF THEM. There were so many eye-rolling moments or painfully obvious moments that it became tedious to watch them. Why? Why go through the same tired actions. The same tired challenges. The same tired reactions. I think of Rogue One and Cassian killing the spy. That was an amazing character moment and something I would have never expected from a “good” guy. This trilogy has played with the idea of what makes one good or bad for three films now and has yet to produce one of those types of moments.
Forced Nostalgia/Emotional Throwbacks: Stacked on top of the cliched moments are moments that are solely created to pull at your heartstrings, but they never do. These are characters I have loved for 40 years, and yet, the attempt to highjack my emotions is so obvious and handled so clunkily that we never get a moment like Peter Parker and Tony Stark at the end of IW or Endgame. Not one moment! I have heard so many people say they cried multiple times during the film. When? Why? The only crying I did was internal as my inner child was kicked in the face over and over again.
Themes: As I mentioned above, there were some interesting themes in TLJ, especially the relationship between Kylo and Rey, and I greatly appreciated those. This film threw that out the window and put them back in the cookie-cutter good girl/bad guy roles. No nuance at all. Nothing of interest. Just bad guys and good guys duking it out. That was cool when I was 4, but now I want something a bit deeper. TJL gave me a taste and RoS snatched it back away, going for Transformers level cheap thrills. Don’t tell me these are kids' movies. The themes touched on in TLJ are not childish in any way, but very adult-driven and with a lot of things, a child would never be able to wrap its head around. These are NOT only for kids and never have been, but the carrot that was dangled that might have given us adults things to muse upon was snatched away and we have been left with little more than an empty CG extravaganza.
Pacing: Speaking of Transformers and bad filmmaking, this film was so frenetic with so many jump cuts and constant motion that there was never an opportunity to appreciate anything. So many cool trooper designs that I only know what they look like because I have seen the toys. You sure wouldn’t know from seeing them in the film because there were cuts every 6 frames. Call me old, but I prefer to appreciate the designs and efforts put into the film. It doesn’t hurt to let the camera linger for a second or two. Pacing and editing can add to the sense of excitement but here it just felt like it was constantly “gotta get to the next thing” and so you never care about the thing you are seeing. Sith Troopers, the Knights of Ren, etc… all had seconds on the screen to the point that you question why they even bothered.
Lore: Some people are going to get up in arms because of the lore changes. I have already seen it compared to the horrendous midiclorian fiasco from the prequels. For me, I’d have to care enough to get upset, and I just don’t care enough. Besides, I honestly didn’t think the one major change was all that bad. I just think someone took a single line from TLJ far too literally.
Woke Culture: Forced woke-culture continues to take center-stage in this film and is just as ham-fisted as it has ever been. It is painfully distracting and a good reminder that there is an utter lack of finesse or subtlety and instead is an attitude of “I will force it down your throat until you choke on it.” I am shocked that they didn’t literally make the Force female.
The Force: CG allows for a lot of awesome things, but we all know it can also lead to bad things. Somehow that has been forgotten here. I will never forget Yoda in Ep II leaping about like a Mexican jumping bean and how ridiculous that seemed. This was equally ridiculous, with the characters doing things one would usually associate with video games or cartoons. Yes, there is the force, and yes, it can allow you to do some cool things, but at some point, the characters using the force no longer feel grounded or feel like they have limitations. They seem more like gods then real people we can relate to and cheer for or worry about.
Final Thoughts: This was a bad film to end a series of mostly bad films and I am very happy to be done with these soulless characters and their largely uninteresting story. It seems like those who made this trilogy were equally happy to be done with the Skywalker saga so they could go on to other things. While that hurts because Skywalker is what made Star Wars what it is, if this poor handling of the end of that story means we can now move on then I guess I am happy to be done with it and their continued mishandling of the things I hold dear. It is hard to say why the Mandalorian is so much better, but it is and if this is the future of Star Wars then I welcome that too. There was an insane amount of pandering in RoS, desperately trying to retcon TLJ as well as a pitifully desperate attempt to remind us why we loved Star Wars in the first place by digging up things from the OT. The Mandalorian does that same thing, but somehow it almost always comes across as sincere fan service and an homage or respectful nod where in every instance in RoS it felt like a desperate plea of “please keep spending your money with us because remember you love Star Wars!”
Well, I do still love Star Wars. I will always love Star Wars. I don’t love this movie. I don’t love the trilogy. Efforts like the Mandalorian remind me of my love for the brand and give me hope that future films can be better. But this? This was the worst type of hot garbage.
Final fanboy notes: Kylo Ren’s helmet was cool. Kylo Ren was cool. Kylo Ren is the most complex character of the trilogy with the most interesting story. Rey was, is, and will continue to be a nobody. I wish we could have had a hero we could in any way relate to or cheer for. Maybe next time. Maybe baby Yoda.
PS. Some people (privately) have asked me “so what did you want?” As I mentioned above, I really loved Kylo and Rey’s relationship and I love that despite the crawls telling us that Kylo is evil and the First Order is bad that they never seem like bad guys to themselves. They don’t see themselves as bad guys. I like that idea and especially Kylo’s idea of bringing his beliefs of what order should be with Rey at his side. I also love that you have unguided youth in this film, children with amazing power at their hands (in Hux and Kylo’s instances, they had mechanical might and in Rey’s, there was the force) and they didn’t have teachers to guide them, leaving them to find their own way. I think there is a tremendous amount that could be explored there. For all the shortcomings of TLJ (terrible humor, Canto Bight, etc.), there were some amazing ideas that could have been carried over into this film and explored further. The original trilogy was a classic good vs evil story. This trilogy had the opportunity to blur the lines and in our modern society, the lines have certainly become more blurred. I wanted a story that focuses more on that. TLJ gave us a taste and I wanted more. I got no more with this film as it fell back into platitudes and hammy emptiness. Substance. I wanted substance.
What about this guy? How dare you challenge who can work on ships!
and according to that first “orville alien” in Mandalorian episode 1 this may be shared universe!
Cuz that don’t like a star war alien!
sztriki
Sr Member
Just saw it today. Pretext was that I liked TFA quite, R1 was a meh fanfilm that I did not care for, TLJ was a massive letdown, Solo I thought was okay and Mandolin I thought was decent. Prequels I loathe. From this one I expected it to be a surprisingly good movie or a so bad and off the rails thing that I would just enjoy it. It's really neither.
The short one
I liked this. Not massively, not in love with it but I liked it, thought it was an enjoyable movie. Too crammed, some rolleyes moments and some hamfisted stuff but overall I thought it was an enjoyable movie. Is this a satisfying grand conclusion to that Skywalker saga? Nope. ROTJ was a perfect conclusion for that. Is it a decent conclusion for the ST? Yea I'd say so given the circumstances.
The long one....
Boy o boy...I probably enjoyed this movie more due to the movie it created in my head. Because it showed that there indeed was a plan and an idea to go to after TFA. That there was a concept and payoff for many setups. That is until pudgy guy was given free reign, came in and said "I'm too good for this".
What I actually liked in this film is that the tone was okay, it somehow managed to get to an ending and the acting, visuals were all fine. It felt like a Star Wars movie again like TFA did. It was kinda predictable but then again there's not a hell of a lot of expectations that can be subverted at this point.
It's a shame that this movie spends the first 40-45 minutes doing the job that the previous movie was supposed to do. It just struck me how little has happened in TLJ on a grand scheme of things other than Luke and Snoke dying and it's an awfully long film for what it is. I cannot shake the feeling that if Episode 8 continued how it was planned the ST would have been a pretty good SW flick. TROS really should have started after Ben came back to the light side. Or after his mortal injury.
It was so obvious that Luke wasn't meant to be on that island to sulk but to work on that Sith GPS device. Until pudgy guy came and said "I'm too good for this".
It was also obvious that the Emperor was not part of the plan. The same exact story could have been done with Snoke. I'm willing to bet that his disfigured face was meant to be due to his lifeforce-sucking nature. Until pudgy guy came and said "I'm too good for this".
JJ and Daisy both reportedly said that there was a plan for Rey's lineage. Until pudgy guy came and said "I'm too good for this". And I'm one of the few who was actually not that bothered by the prospect that she's not related to anyone.
Which leads to some clunky exposition to course-correct.
I genuinely laughed out loud at the title crawl. Fortunately things got better from that. My main problem is probably that there's a massive space battle with 900000000000 planet killing (ugh not again) star destroyers plus every ship in the galaxy and it's totally insignificant.
It was surprisingly nice to see Harrison Ford. That was a very good scene, I liked it. I'm not sure if Luke's green lightsaber should have been Rey's backup...maybe a bit too much fan-service. I liked the idea that Leia was training her. 3PO was very enjoyable. Rose was reduced to doing some admin work in the background. Kinda feel bad for Kelly Marie Tran but her character was driving me absolutely nuts. Knights of Rent were as interesting as Snoke's guards. Maybe they could have been expanded on in Ep8?
The biggest thing I wonder about is where did Luke fit in the original story treatment. I can figure out how Snoke, the Palpatine heritage and such but I wonder if Luke was to die somewhere in Ep8 originally or maybe it was closer to the end of this one...The Palpatine lineage was really supposed to be revealed in the middle part. I know that would have made it even more a copy of ESB but it would have felt more natural. Also probably the turn of Kylo Ren should have happened at the end of Ep8 and maybe Rey would have gone to a much darker place then...?
I honestly feel like 40 minutes from this should be edited together with 45 minutes of TLJ to form Ep8 and maybe use some cut footage to make this the finale and then we could have a kinda decent trilogy. I think this was supposed to be a decent enough storyline. Until pudgy guy came and said "I'm too good for this".
The short one
I liked this. Not massively, not in love with it but I liked it, thought it was an enjoyable movie. Too crammed, some rolleyes moments and some hamfisted stuff but overall I thought it was an enjoyable movie. Is this a satisfying grand conclusion to that Skywalker saga? Nope. ROTJ was a perfect conclusion for that. Is it a decent conclusion for the ST? Yea I'd say so given the circumstances.
The long one....
Boy o boy...I probably enjoyed this movie more due to the movie it created in my head. Because it showed that there indeed was a plan and an idea to go to after TFA. That there was a concept and payoff for many setups. That is until pudgy guy was given free reign, came in and said "I'm too good for this".
What I actually liked in this film is that the tone was okay, it somehow managed to get to an ending and the acting, visuals were all fine. It felt like a Star Wars movie again like TFA did. It was kinda predictable but then again there's not a hell of a lot of expectations that can be subverted at this point.
It's a shame that this movie spends the first 40-45 minutes doing the job that the previous movie was supposed to do. It just struck me how little has happened in TLJ on a grand scheme of things other than Luke and Snoke dying and it's an awfully long film for what it is. I cannot shake the feeling that if Episode 8 continued how it was planned the ST would have been a pretty good SW flick. TROS really should have started after Ben came back to the light side. Or after his mortal injury.
It was so obvious that Luke wasn't meant to be on that island to sulk but to work on that Sith GPS device. Until pudgy guy came and said "I'm too good for this".
It was also obvious that the Emperor was not part of the plan. The same exact story could have been done with Snoke. I'm willing to bet that his disfigured face was meant to be due to his lifeforce-sucking nature. Until pudgy guy came and said "I'm too good for this".
JJ and Daisy both reportedly said that there was a plan for Rey's lineage. Until pudgy guy came and said "I'm too good for this". And I'm one of the few who was actually not that bothered by the prospect that she's not related to anyone.
Which leads to some clunky exposition to course-correct.
I genuinely laughed out loud at the title crawl. Fortunately things got better from that. My main problem is probably that there's a massive space battle with 900000000000 planet killing (ugh not again) star destroyers plus every ship in the galaxy and it's totally insignificant.
It was surprisingly nice to see Harrison Ford. That was a very good scene, I liked it. I'm not sure if Luke's green lightsaber should have been Rey's backup...maybe a bit too much fan-service. I liked the idea that Leia was training her. 3PO was very enjoyable. Rose was reduced to doing some admin work in the background. Kinda feel bad for Kelly Marie Tran but her character was driving me absolutely nuts. Knights of Rent were as interesting as Snoke's guards. Maybe they could have been expanded on in Ep8?
The biggest thing I wonder about is where did Luke fit in the original story treatment. I can figure out how Snoke, the Palpatine heritage and such but I wonder if Luke was to die somewhere in Ep8 originally or maybe it was closer to the end of this one...The Palpatine lineage was really supposed to be revealed in the middle part. I know that would have made it even more a copy of ESB but it would have felt more natural. Also probably the turn of Kylo Ren should have happened at the end of Ep8 and maybe Rey would have gone to a much darker place then...?
I honestly feel like 40 minutes from this should be edited together with 45 minutes of TLJ to form Ep8 and maybe use some cut footage to make this the finale and then we could have a kinda decent trilogy. I think this was supposed to be a decent enough storyline. Until pudgy guy came and said "I'm too good for this".
Don't mince words Art, what do you really think?
azheat
Master Member
One thing that I didn't like was the whole "using the force to teleport a light saber from my hands to yours". It's one thing to use your force power to Jedi throw it / grab it from a distance, but to make it physically disappear and reappear, meh. I'm cool with Jedi visions, super human abilities, lifting / pulling obscenely heavy objects with the force, ghosts, etc, but that scene felt cheap to me.
And speaking of ghosts, I didn't like that ghost Luke caught the light saber. I like the idea that ghosts can talk to you, provide guidance, appear, etc, but I don't need them interacting with real world objects. I'm surprised, and thankful, they didn't have Luke ghost engage in a light saber duel.
And tossing Palps back into this movie with no context the way they did, felt cheap.
And speaking of ghosts, I didn't like that ghost Luke caught the light saber. I like the idea that ghosts can talk to you, provide guidance, appear, etc, but I don't need them interacting with real world objects. I'm surprised, and thankful, they didn't have Luke ghost engage in a light saber duel.
And tossing Palps back into this movie with no context the way they did, felt cheap.
ghostryder
Legendary Member
J.J. Abrams Clarifies What Finn Wanted to Tell Rey in Rise of Skywalker
Despite being a finale to the Skywalker Saga, JJ Abrams left a few plot threads hanging in Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker, including a secret John Boyega's Finn wanted to reveal to Daisy Ridley's Rey.
www.comingsoon.net
thought that’s what you were saying with it... it’s def a “I’m not gonna try and make 8 work” statement.
I’m probably closer to your take... this may be like alien resurrection/Prometheus.... terrible movies, but still entertaining cuz just full on popcorn.
Full on popcorn can still be emotional... Infinity war had an Olsen sister blasting a guy in face paint and a cape while holding back a purple ball sack faced CG villain, and I can barely hold back tears...
This was STAR WARS and I was just... “eh... Well that was fun..” but no emotional attachment.
Which is too bad.
J.J. Abrams Clarifies What Finn Wanted to Tell Rey in Rise of Skywalker
Despite being a finale to the Skywalker Saga, JJ Abrams left a few plot threads hanging in Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker, including a secret John Boyega's Finn wanted to reveal to Daisy Ridley's Rey.
Thank you for sharing!!
Joek3rr
Master Member
Force ghost could interact with the physical world since ROTJ. Obi-Wan moves vines out of his way as his sits down on the log.
Potroclo
Well-Known Member
Actually that sounds like a not so bad idea. Cut Canto Bight and slow ep 9's pacing... It might work...!
Because he’s just a 36 year old clone?
azheat
Master Member
Yep, didn’t like it there either, even though his is purely inconsequential to what’s happening in the story.
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