cboath
Master Member
Which means it's a plot hole they ignored or didn't care about. You don't answer stuff in a comic that only 1% of your audience is going to read.
Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
Which means it's a plot hole they ignored or didn't care about. You don't answer stuff in a comic that only 1% of your audience is going to read.
Cephus
Master Member
If it's not on screen, it doesn't exist.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Agreed. You don’t submit a half-written essay to your professor and say “don’t worry, I fully defended my arguments in my blog post on this obscure website you won’t visit”. Or you could but don’t come complaining when your professor gives you an F for shoddy work.
Besides, it still doesn’t explain why Luke went to the Jedi temple for his final resting place. He has no connection to the area and doesn’t know anyone there. Why not die in his hometown of Tatooine, Dagobah where he became a Jedi, or some luxury planet. Unless this is retconned at Ahch-to actually has a thriving tourism economy with green milk and BBQ progs that are just to die for. Then I get it.
Besides, it still doesn’t explain why Luke went to the Jedi temple for his final resting place. He has no connection to the area and doesn’t know anyone there. Why not die in his hometown of Tatooine, Dagobah where he became a Jedi, or some luxury planet. Unless this is retconned at Ahch-to actually has a thriving tourism economy with green milk and BBQ progs that are just to die for. Then I get it.
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RedheadKevin
Well-Known Member
OH boy, here we go...
It was a pilgrimage thing. Plus, Ahch-To was well hidden. So he could live out his days in peace, separated from The Force and hidden from the FO. Even if he was done with the Jedi Order, Luke still had a hidden planet to live on. Now that I think about it, a Jedi Temple might be a tough place to get away from The Force. That's like a recovering gambling addict living out his days at Mohegan Sun.
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If you need ancillary material to fill in plot holes, then your script is leaking. It's a pretty simple concept. But whatever. It's been argued to death.
Not to mention if all Luke wanted to do was go into exile to die, then why in the world would he choose to go to a place where everything around him would be a constant reminder of his failure? Talk about self loathing. He might as well have jumped off that cliff and ended it all the moment he got there. What was stopping him? Oh, I know, the plot.
People always compare him to Obi-Wan and Yoda who both went into exile. The biggest difference was that when his masters left the fight their order had been destroyed and their allies had scattered. The Empire had been established and Jedi were outlaws who were being hunted down. The Alliance didn't exist so they had no choice but to run and protect Luke and Leia.
By the time of Kylo's fall, Leia and Han were still around, not to mention that the Republic was still in power, which only makes Luke's exile that much more selfish. If anything his chances to right his wrong were better before he quit the galaxy. By the time Luke half heartedly telephones himself in to help, the damage was already done and he actually made things worse because Kylo hated him even more when he vanished. I suppose you could argue that he bought Leia some time to escape but it just seemed too little too late by then. Big ******* deal.
I swear, everything about that movie just tears the series apart the more you delve into it. I honestly don't understand how any Star Wars fan can watch that movie and love it. Again, there's enough room for everyone in this Fandom, I just don't see what other fans like about it.
Not to mention if all Luke wanted to do was go into exile to die, then why in the world would he choose to go to a place where everything around him would be a constant reminder of his failure? Talk about self loathing. He might as well have jumped off that cliff and ended it all the moment he got there. What was stopping him? Oh, I know, the plot.
People always compare him to Obi-Wan and Yoda who both went into exile. The biggest difference was that when his masters left the fight their order had been destroyed and their allies had scattered. The Empire had been established and Jedi were outlaws who were being hunted down. The Alliance didn't exist so they had no choice but to run and protect Luke and Leia.
By the time of Kylo's fall, Leia and Han were still around, not to mention that the Republic was still in power, which only makes Luke's exile that much more selfish. If anything his chances to right his wrong were better before he quit the galaxy. By the time Luke half heartedly telephones himself in to help, the damage was already done and he actually made things worse because Kylo hated him even more when he vanished. I suppose you could argue that he bought Leia some time to escape but it just seemed too little too late by then. Big ******* deal.
I swear, everything about that movie just tears the series apart the more you delve into it. I honestly don't understand how any Star Wars fan can watch that movie and love it. Again, there's enough room for everyone in this Fandom, I just don't see what other fans like about it.
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HeartBlade
Sr Member
it was well hidden to the point where the first order knew the location but not the path they needed to take to find him. It’s also implied that the First Order only needed that final part of the map to find Luke so he was hiding on borrowed time.
I do agree the exiles by Obi Wan and Yoda are also completely different in nature to Luke’s. Yoda and Obi Wan are powerless to fight against the Empire in their current state. By going into exile and biding their time, they can build the strength to eventually overthrow the Sith by training Luke.
Luke’s exile and endgame doesn’t make sense. He senses Ben will turn to the dark side and will destroy everything Luke loves so contemplated killing him beforehand. He is upset by the fact that he could even consider killing someone that he loved and so decides to exile himself. By doing so, Ben can fulfill his destiny to destroy everything Luke loves as foreseen in his vision with no one to stop him. Furthermore, since no one else had any force training except for Leia who quit her training halfBen would be undisputed in strength and would wreck anyone who got in his way.
Didn’t Luke face a similar issue before? Someone he loved was a threat to the entire galaxy and had fallen to the dark side? This dude was really evil and powerful and threatened to destroy everything Luke held dear and he was told by everyone that he needed to kill that person? I remember Luke took a third option, believing in the light in that person which caused him to redeem himself and save Luke as well as stop the emperor, ending the dark side for the time being.
cboath
Master Member
HTH to you hide a PLANET? I'd say it's not hidden, just a backwater place no one really cares about or goes to. And again? Why did he have to go there? Ben lived a rather bleak and lonely life on tatooine. Short of going there to get some needed object or information, there's no reason for him to go there.
And i have to agree with the sentiment, if it's not in the movie it doesn't exist. The overwhelming majority of your viewers, well in excess of 90% see just the movie. I'd wager a good number of people who watched the ST didn't even see any of the prior movies either. You can't base import things on stuff you don't cover. You can make a reference like, 'yeah, i got it from some Twilek named Sabine a few years ago on Lothal' as a throwaway line on how someone got something. No more info is needed and its' a callout to fans of Rebels. You can't have them go off looking for Ezra as a main plot point and never explain who he is or why they're looking for him because no one will know otherwise unless they watched rebels. And be honest. many more people watched Rebels than read a comic about Poe Dameron. I mean, they put out what? 3 books to get up to speed on what was going on before TFA came out. NO ONE is going to watch a movie if there's homework invovled. Well, they'll watch it, but won't do the homework and then miss out on things they probably need to know. if you need three books to make your three movies, you should probably be doing 5-6 movies instead of three.
RedheadKevin
Well-Known Member
I'd just like to clarify that I didn't mean that you had to do your homework to watch and understand these movies. I was just making a comment about the ridiculous commitment Disney made when they said "every official piece of media is canon, including books, comics, video games, and theme park rides." It won't be long before movies get panned by us internet nerds because "ACKTUALLY, a panel of Issue #16 of the Momaw Nadon limited series comic says that...." And the problem is, THEY'RE RIGHT. When you have such an extensive canon, you're going to start stepping on toes keeping everything straight. They've got some serious 'splaining to do about what happened to the Mandalorians, for example. The Mandalorians on the TV show are a lot different from the ones we saw in Clone Wars and Rebels.
I think having a consistent canon is important, or at the least defining elements of said canon. If the novels are consistent with the films, great. If they are an alternate universe that don't line up but are close, great. Just be clear on which it is and stick to your decision. Now will there be mistakes, sure, but if it's relatively consistent then I think most fans would be pretty forgiving. Lucas himself had to deal with this issue too so I'm not laying all the blame on Lucasfilm under Kennedy for that.
Where I do find major fault, and I think most of us here agree, is that there was an obvious lack of planning on the ST and because it was so wildly inconsistent it just fell apart. Even George managed to have a vision for the PT, even if it too failed on other levels, at the very least it showed an overall story arc about the rise and fall of Anakin. The overall plot of the ST is a complete mystery to me.
Where I do find major fault, and I think most of us here agree, is that there was an obvious lack of planning on the ST and because it was so wildly inconsistent it just fell apart. Even George managed to have a vision for the PT, even if it too failed on other levels, at the very least it showed an overall story arc about the rise and fall of Anakin. The overall plot of the ST is a complete mystery to me.
RedheadKevin
Well-Known Member
You're absolutely right. A consistent canon IS important, but it's becoming too big and too spread out. It's becoming nearly impossible to juggle 11 movies, 2 cartoon series, TV shows for individual characters and God knows how many comics and novels. AND then make sure EVERYTHING lines up. Either some media will have to ignore canon, or you'll have more convoluted "certain point of view" conversations.
Back in the days of the EU, you could make up stories that people really enjoyed, and whoops, if it didn't agree with the next movie to come out, then so be it. Now, you're tying the hands of creators by making it all have to line up. Which, I think, is why people like The Mandalorian so much. It throws out a LOT of what we know about Mandalorians from the cartoons and just uses it as a framework to play in the Star Wars sandbox. I'd love to see Favreau's crew explain how the proud, bare-headed Mandalorians like Sabine or Pre Vizla became a race of sewer-dwelling permanently-masked refugees. But it's going to have to be quite complicated to explain how their whole society changed in 30 years. Or, they could just enjoy the playing.
As far as the overarching plot of the ST goes, I blame all the canon that they had to follow, and I blame Rian Johnson. I'm convinced that JJ Abrams had 3 movies planned, and Rian and Carrie Fisher's death screwed up the works. TFA was his first movie, and the Rise of Skywalker was JJ's last TWO movies smooshed together.
Back in the days of the EU, you could make up stories that people really enjoyed, and whoops, if it didn't agree with the next movie to come out, then so be it. Now, you're tying the hands of creators by making it all have to line up. Which, I think, is why people like The Mandalorian so much. It throws out a LOT of what we know about Mandalorians from the cartoons and just uses it as a framework to play in the Star Wars sandbox. I'd love to see Favreau's crew explain how the proud, bare-headed Mandalorians like Sabine or Pre Vizla became a race of sewer-dwelling permanently-masked refugees. But it's going to have to be quite complicated to explain how their whole society changed in 30 years. Or, they could just enjoy the playing.
As far as the overarching plot of the ST goes, I blame all the canon that they had to follow, and I blame Rian Johnson. I'm convinced that JJ Abrams had 3 movies planned, and Rian and Carrie Fisher's death screwed up the works. TFA was his first movie, and the Rise of Skywalker was JJ's last TWO movies smooshed together.
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cboath
Master Member
It's hard if you're doing it retroactively. Much less if you're doing it as you go along. Pretty sure authors across the board are told you can't do these things to Rey (if they're using her) and that everything they submit is subject to being blocked if the powers that be disagree. It's hard if you have 10 different people working on various things and the home office has to make sure they don't step on each others toes, which is why you have to have everyone on the same page. You don't want an author writing 5 years after RoS to make use of Poe's second cousin twice removed if a guy writing something prior to that is going to kill him off.
But i'm sure they have to send in the broad strokes of what they're going to write to get it approved to avoid these things.
As for the ST, i don't think JJ and the crew mapped out the whole thing other than 7 focuses on Han of the OT, 8 was Luke, and 9 was Leia. I think that was it. I think they wanted to let the directors steer the ship and it blew up in their face. That methodology only works if you put all the directors together before anyone starts shooting to iron out the whole plan. That didn't happen.
Ever do the excerise in elementary school, where the first person writes a bit, passes it off to the next person and so on? You get a fairly jacked up amusing (not in a good way) result. Not sure how they thought this would be different. I mean, i don't get how they let RJ end E8 with basically no unanswered questions. If the Sequels ended there, it would have been akin to ROTS in ending on a down note. If the PT was the first trilogy, no one's saying 'i gotta see what happens next!', though, the question of 'will the jedi survive, etc' is still there. There really weren't questions to be answered in 9 short of 'what will they (LFL) do next?'
But i'm sure they have to send in the broad strokes of what they're going to write to get it approved to avoid these things.
As for the ST, i don't think JJ and the crew mapped out the whole thing other than 7 focuses on Han of the OT, 8 was Luke, and 9 was Leia. I think that was it. I think they wanted to let the directors steer the ship and it blew up in their face. That methodology only works if you put all the directors together before anyone starts shooting to iron out the whole plan. That didn't happen.
Ever do the excerise in elementary school, where the first person writes a bit, passes it off to the next person and so on? You get a fairly jacked up amusing (not in a good way) result. Not sure how they thought this would be different. I mean, i don't get how they let RJ end E8 with basically no unanswered questions. If the Sequels ended there, it would have been akin to ROTS in ending on a down note. If the PT was the first trilogy, no one's saying 'i gotta see what happens next!', though, the question of 'will the jedi survive, etc' is still there. There really weren't questions to be answered in 9 short of 'what will they (LFL) do next?'
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Didn’t Disney throw out/decanonize everything apart from the movies and cartoon when they started the ST? They started with a pretty clean slate which is why I don’t think managing canon is a good excuse for them. Hell, Kennedy herself seems to barely be aware of Star Wars material and lore outside the movies with her excuse that Star Wars doesn’t have that much material to adapt unlike Marvel...
Even if there is a ton of stuff, you can manage what is canon and what is not by tiers. Just say the films are the ultimate and what is true in the films is true, period. Then Disney managed stuff (cartoons, tv shows), then third party stuff like games and books. If there are conflicting accounts, then the higher tier stuff takes precedence. It means that the films can be creative since they are free from the shackles of preexisting lore but need to make sure they know their stuff because what goes on film becomes what is Star Wars, period.
I agree needing a unified vision is necessary. These old viral post about a writing prompt kind of reminds me of the back and forth between Abrams and Rian’s style to be honest.
www.mareeanderson.com
Although not as extreme, Abrams was definately not happy with the changes Rian made. If not, Rose would have been with the core 3 and not written out of RoS.
Even if there is a ton of stuff, you can manage what is canon and what is not by tiers. Just say the films are the ultimate and what is true in the films is true, period. Then Disney managed stuff (cartoons, tv shows), then third party stuff like games and books. If there are conflicting accounts, then the higher tier stuff takes precedence. It means that the films can be creative since they are free from the shackles of preexisting lore but need to make sure they know their stuff because what goes on film becomes what is Star Wars, period.
I agree needing a unified vision is necessary. These old viral post about a writing prompt kind of reminds me of the back and forth between Abrams and Rian’s style to be honest.
Writing Assignment – the difference between men and women | Maree Anderson | Author
I received this by email back in March 2006 (thanks Rowena, for sending it to me) and I still laugh when I read it. In my opinion, this is a classic example of the real-life differences between how men and women think. So, my fellow women, read on - if you dare - and join me in thanking god we...
Although not as extreme, Abrams was definately not happy with the changes Rian made. If not, Rose would have been with the core 3 and not written out of RoS.
MattBlack
Well-Known Member
I've said it before but it's obvious 90% of the writing choices in ROS was in response to the extreme fan reactions to The Last Jedi.
I didn't like The Last Jedi, it's a film full of problems, bad pacing and ridiculous story lines, but there were some good ideas there, and I appreciated that they were attempting to do something new with the overarching story.
But in fairness to Rian Johnson, TFA had a load of mystery boxes that had no long term plan. The creators freely admitted that. Imagine you were taking on the sequel to a film and when you asked about the unresolved plot points and questions, you were told they had no ideas or answers for them. What a ridiculous situation to be in. You'd cut the boring things and move into your own plan.
TLJ had plenty that JJ Abrams and the producers could have continued to work with;
- A resistance down to it's last 40 members, with no allies or resources. A group on the run in desperate times.
- The one weapon the resistance have to level the playing field is the 'Holdo maneuver' but every time they use it, it wipes out one of their team and loses a ship they barely have access to.
- Rey, a force user with no important linage or baggage, who can dip into both Jedi and Dark Side areas, and a Force Ghost Luke who feels that the Jedi have run their course, a new direction is needed for Force users, as both Jedi/Sith mess it all up. Hell, you could call the new group of force users 'Skywalkers'
- Finn, an ex-storm trooper who rebelled against his programming.. or did he? What if he's been conditioned to join them and work against them from the inside? What if he's fighting his programming every step of the way?
- Snoke, the cliché old dark side user is dead, so we no longer have the obvious villain over seeing things, leaving;
- Kylo Ren, who was once conflicted, now fully engaged in destroying the old system and ways, and he has a whole military force under his command now. He's not trying to be Vader 2.0 anymore and absolutely will not be redeemed. Let him be the bad guy.
- The First Order, the strongest military force in the galaxy, now has a leader who is erratic, emotional and volatile, so much so that the senior officers hate him and plan to undermine and usurp him from within.
It kind of reminds me of Alien 3, when the film completely negates the whole of Aliens in the first 5 minutes - the whole rescue mission to save Newt? Waste of time. The sacrifice Bishop made to save them? Waste of time. The burgeoning relationship between Hicks and Ripley? Nah. The surrogate motherhood role between Ripley and Newt? Nup. Wiping out the Engineer's ship and the aliens nest completely? Don't matter cos they got on board the Sulaco anyway. It was like a sledgehammer to Jim Cameron's face.
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cboath
Master Member
It's not just TLJ that tossed out what came before. TFA tosses out a big chunk of the OT, TLJ tosses a lot of stuff from TFA as well.
In TLJ, it actually doesn't really matter if there were mystery boxes with no plan. The fact is, they were there and largely ignored, retconned, or nipped in the bud.
As for that list, you're not wrong, but, the bit about finn is your idea. It's not something left at the end of TLJ and that is the problem. There's nothing left hanging after TLJ that needs resolved to complete a so-called 'trilogy'. Part 2 of 3 is supposed to advance the story and leave the conclusion for part 3, it's not supposed to tie everything up.
You can't push the thing in to all new directions in part 2 without leaving things that have to be resolved in part 3. That's why it was very easy to undo TLJ for JJ. There wasn't anything left in a new direction that required follow up so he could very easily do whatever he wanted.
Some people like to try and point out that JJ loved what was done with TLJ, was totally on board, etc. RoS tells you that that was not true at all. That's stuff you say for public consumption. Tells me there were probably disagreements at the upper levels and JJ was overruled by KK or something like that. Yes, that's speculation. However, if he really liked TLJ and had zero issues with it, even with fan reaction, RoS isn't what it is if he liked/approved of everything in TLJ.
The stuff you point out about TLJ is why i'm still interested in what RJ does with a full trilogy - especially if it has no ties to anything that already exists. I also think he could have done TLJ in largely the same way without being, shall we say, divisive. So, yeah, he had good ideas, but he also had bad ones. it wasn't the good ones than sunk TLJ in most people's eyes.
In TLJ, it actually doesn't really matter if there were mystery boxes with no plan. The fact is, they were there and largely ignored, retconned, or nipped in the bud.
As for that list, you're not wrong, but, the bit about finn is your idea. It's not something left at the end of TLJ and that is the problem. There's nothing left hanging after TLJ that needs resolved to complete a so-called 'trilogy'. Part 2 of 3 is supposed to advance the story and leave the conclusion for part 3, it's not supposed to tie everything up.
You can't push the thing in to all new directions in part 2 without leaving things that have to be resolved in part 3. That's why it was very easy to undo TLJ for JJ. There wasn't anything left in a new direction that required follow up so he could very easily do whatever he wanted.
Some people like to try and point out that JJ loved what was done with TLJ, was totally on board, etc. RoS tells you that that was not true at all. That's stuff you say for public consumption. Tells me there were probably disagreements at the upper levels and JJ was overruled by KK or something like that. Yes, that's speculation. However, if he really liked TLJ and had zero issues with it, even with fan reaction, RoS isn't what it is if he liked/approved of everything in TLJ.
The stuff you point out about TLJ is why i'm still interested in what RJ does with a full trilogy - especially if it has no ties to anything that already exists. I also think he could have done TLJ in largely the same way without being, shall we say, divisive. So, yeah, he had good ideas, but he also had bad ones. it wasn't the good ones than sunk TLJ in most people's eyes.
Rian's idea of subverting expectations is to simply do the opposite of what people expect, no matter how nonsensical it is. That's not subversive at all. That's being contrarian for its own sake and not to strengthen the story. If you're going to genuinely surprise fans you can absolutely do it if you're a decent writer but playing "opposite day" with a story is not a sign of brilliance. A better writer would have been able to work within the framework of what had been established and still found a way to push the story forward in new directions without violating it. So I don't fault him for trying something new, I do however don't think he was good enough to execute it well. Subversion is when you work subtlety within the system without destroying it altogether. There was nothing subtle about that movie.
And let's be real here, none of this would have happened if they had an overall plan, so I can't feel too bad for any of them, especially when they blamed the fans for their failures.
And let's be real here, none of this would have happened if they had an overall plan, so I can't feel too bad for any of them, especially when they blamed the fans for their failures.
Joek3rr
Master Member
It's implied. The First Order got its part of the map from the archives of the Empire. Artoo has the same map, so....
Joek3rr
Master Member
Yet some people are adamant that Luke left a map. Where's is that in the movie?
Joek3rr
Master Member
Fun fact, Anakin's motivations for falling to the dark side weren't solidified by George until he was editing the film.
Joek3rr
Master Member
I mean it isn't rocket science. Luke, broken and disillusioned goes to the place where the Jedi began to contemplate the future of the Jedi.
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