Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

What did you think of Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker?


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Luke doesn't want to face Ben, for the same reason Obi-Wan doesn't want to face Anakin. Luke knows that a confrontation would lead death or dismemberment on Ben's part or Luke's.

Except Obi-Wan does face Anakin? Twice. And doesn't kill him either time? So that doesn't make any sense. And sure you could reply "it led to his death" except Obi-Wan fully sacrifices himself to make a point. That's his choice, not a failure of his training. He wanted to show Luke the power of the Force. So that doesn't really hold water at all.

But yes, most effective troll in RPF history
 
Yes. Pretty sure Luke went to the Dagobah system to get training from Yoda and really only tells R2 because he needs him to set directions to the Dagobah system. As a matter of fact, I would expect a depressed Luke to be more likely to contact Leia to tell her he isn’t coming back because she is expecting Luke to be back, hence the search. I mean that’s just basic etiquette. If Luke really didn’t want to be found and stay away, why create a map in the first place?

The novel said Han believed Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple which the map identifies, something also theorized by another resistance fighter. And if Han thought it, he likely heard Luke talking about looking for the first jedi temple and so believes that is where he went off to, just that he doesn’t know where the temple is. So your argument that it can’t possibly be because Luke went for learning/finding something can be possible because the official novelization on brought it up as a potential reason. The reason why Rey, Leia, Han are looking for Luke is because they want to warn him that the First Order is looking for him. I don’t consider the novel canon but it was Disney approved with there being hype that we might see the first Jedi temple.



It’s pretty obvious that you are so fixated on the idea that Rian Johnson’s idea was flawlessly perfect and no idea could possibly work that you also go against the official novel for Force Awakens. No one is discounting the possibility that Luke was depressed although the article above hypothesizes it is because of Ben’s betrayal+Ben and Knights of Ren dest

And fear of the possibility of Kylo Ren dismembering him means Luke is afraid of Kylo Ren. Unless getting dismembered is not scary? I mean it seems even you agree that Luke is scared of Kylo Ren but somehow want to argue running away from confronting Kylo who wants to fight him is not cowardly? I think Poland wants a word with you.

Ofcourse, being so scared of Kylo because he is so powerful could be a good reason for Luke’s depression and hiding/cowardice. He sees an enemy so insanely more powerful than him that he cannot hope to best who will destroy everything his loves would be amazing characterization to build up Kylo as a threat.

But if that were the case, Kylo is a paper tiger. Looks scary but accomplished nothing. Loses to Rey 3 times in every encounter (despite supposedly being equal and better trained since he supposedly trained under Luke for about 14 years since he was 5 and should have trained under Snoke for another 10). His only kills of named character is old defenseless Han and injuring Finn who recovered after a quick Bacta bath. Hell, during the final confrontation between Luke and Kylo, Luke completely messed with Kylo and basically let himself lose. This is the threat?

If you look at them piece by individual piece, plot holes and inconsistencies can be explained away. But when you look at it as a whole, it doesn’t hold.
Luke never left a map. Not once is that if even remotely suggested. I don't know where people are getting this idea.

True, he didn't tell anyone in ESB. But then again Luke and Leia weren't brother and sister. I feel that Luke post ROTJ would have told his sister. A Luke that is in his right mind, that is.

I love Rian's Luke, because it happens to be very closely inspired by George Lucas's Luke. I find it intriguing what George envisioned. Our hero has becoming a broken, depressed, disillusioned old man hiding from the world in a cave.

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Luke is afraid to confront Ben, to face his failure. He's not afraid for his safety. But, and this just my opinion, Luke knows that a confrontation would not end well for his nephew. He doesn't have to kill or physically injure his nephew. Just as his master before didn't want to confront his fallen apprentice, knowing that a confrontation with Anakin would lead to Anakin's death or injury.
 
Except Obi-Wan does face Anakin? Twice. And doesn't kill him either time? So that doesn't make any sense. And sure you could reply "it led to his death" except Obi-Wan fully sacrifices himself to make a point. That's his choice, not a failure of his training. He wanted to show Luke the power of the Force. So that doesn't really hold water at all.

But yes, most effective troll in RPF history
Horrible examples.

Yes Obi-Wan faces Anakin. But only because Yoda makes him. And the result? Obi-Wan leaves his best friend maimed burning to death.
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Do you really think Luke wants something horrible for his nephew?

And the second confrontation ends with Obi-Wan's death. After starting Luke on his Jedi path. He has accomplished his mission. And now confident in Luke he becomes one with the Force.

So Luke confronts his nephew and what? Kills him, maimes him? Let Ben kill him? What would letting Ben kill him achieve?
 
Give it a rest. George's reason for why luke was broken and bitter wasn't said. No one said that him broken and bitter couldn't work just that way they did it was a failure for a multitude of reasons illustrated in the pages above.

You can do, but you're going to need a lore more exposition to make it believable to the audience - especially when the audience has revered the character for decades! It's not rocket science. You can do a lot and do a lot of stuff that'll be unpopular and make it work. You just have to do it well. They didn't. Simple as that.

Again, Luke didn't know his father from a dead skeleton in the desert. He was devastated to learn his father was the ultimate evil - whom he'd never met - and then steadfastly went out to redeem him saying he could see the light inside. Yet, you have no problem believing a 20 year old, he himself helped raise from a baby goes bad, and is irredeemable at that point off a vision (and he knows visions aren't foolproof) to the point that he has no choice but to kill him in his sleep which is something he wouldn't do to the father he never met in a duel with staggering consequences.

No. There's no way. I'm not sure how anyone is like 'yep, sure, i buy it totally'. It defies all logic. If i'm that worried, i can drop him on an uninhabited planet and he's a threat to no one. Again, there are plenty of ways to sideline him if you feels that's his future. Ostensibly stabbing him in the back while he sleeps? It doesn't get more cowardly than that. Unless you want to debate what's more cowardly, that, or turning him lose on the galaxy and saying 'suck it, he's your problem now i quit'.

Now, is there a way they could possibly have pulled that off? Sure there is. But it takes more than 30 seconds of exposition to get people to buy into. There's simply not enough evidence from what we were given to say that's the only move you have left. I mean, if you have him being caught killing other students and luke is willing to take him down to save someone and killing his nephew puts him over that edge, ok, fine, let's talk. Doing it off a vision when he knows visions are far from accurate or reliable is an utter joke. You want to point to ESB, great, also in ESB he had the encounter at the cave that was saying if he left to save his friends he'd become the next vader because he didn't complete his training. So, he's only batting 50% on visions we know he's had.

It takes a major character turn to make these things possible/believable. You can't execute those ideas off a 'becuase i said so' line of thought. It's something that has to be earned on screen. It wasn't. And that's the reason it fails.
 
They said they didn't know what to do with Luke. Again, not rocket science. Don't arbitrarily make this a part of 1-6, because it wasn't and didn't need to be. Luke is the head of an academy or whatever and Rey is a student, or she's someone he runs into and you go from there. There was no need to up the stakes (let's blow up 5 planets instead of 1 to show it's a bigger threat than the empire was!). You start a new story making use of the existing characters and have them guide the new crew and let them have their own stakes to fight for. Rey had no reason to hate the first order - at least prior to being kidnapped. Quite honestly, it wasn't her fight. Had she never left Jaaku, and the FO took over, does her life get worse? Doubtfully.

I'm guessing GL's take didn't have a bigger badder empire, the DS3, and didn't try and redo 4-6.

It's just sad there were loads of ways to do this, not just better, but without stomping on the OT in the process and their preferred choice was to stomp on the OT. In all 3 parts. Not just TLJ.
 
Yeah it really is starting to seem that Joker is more a troll.

You focus on the nitpicks in arguments rather than look at the main point that is trying to be expressed, rely on “what about”, and conveniently ignore all the evidence that directly disproves your arguments. And you also bring up Lucas even though he had nothing to do with the trilogy as a means to say “see, this was Lucas’ idea so if you disagree you are disagreeing with Lucas and are thus not a true fan like me.”

So tell me, do you think the author for the novelization for the Force Awakens also a complete hack? After all, the novelization gives the possibility that Luke went to Ach-Too to find the first Jedi temple for something, whether that be additional insight to defeat the First Order and the narrative is Han, Leia, Rey are racing to warn Luke. But this must be completely wrong and the writer is a hack because it has to be Luke went to find a place to die.

And if Luke didn’t leave the map, why does the First Order and the Resistance care about the map in the first place? They both want to find Luke which was the driving point of TFA and they know that by completing the map, they can find Luke. Even if Luke didn’t directly leave the map (although it is implied in the movie because why else would they go to Ach-Too) he left a hints on his final location that allowed the resistance and First Order to know where he is. If he didn’t want to be found, he should have just left completely and said nothing and go to some distant planet. The galaxy is huge and Yoda/Obi-wan successfully hid from the galactic empire with their vast resources for several years, Im sure Luke can if he wanted to find somewhere to die.

And so Luke is scared to confront and kill his nephew so his solution is to stay away and let his nephew wreck havoc, including killing one of his best friends? And not tell his sister who is holding the fort down on her own? And is willing to let the entire Jedi order and it’s legacy fade away with its teachings lost forever given that he is the last Jedi?

Although this completely destroys Luke’s legacy and honestly strips from him the moniker hero, this is possible if and only if Kylo Ren/Ben is that much of a threat. If Kylo is so immensely strong that even Palpatine would kneel and Vader would be like a slaughtered youngling if he stood up to Kylo.

Unfortunately, this isn’t Kylo Ren. He has strong force potential since he is a Skywalker but he is too conflicted internally between his own light and dark side. He is a mere shadow of Vader, let alone Palpatine. And he can’t even beat an untrained orphan despite his years of experience.

I do think the dyad in the Force is arguably the stupidest narrative device introduced into the Star Wars narrative and removes any semi balance of tension in the story but that’s a completely separate issue.
 
I don’t think Joek3rr is a troll... just my honest opinion.
Although I don’t agree with his particular point of view regarding the ST trilogy.
... imho everyone contributing to these various forums are passionately expressing themselves , however they can.
That’s why I’m proud and fortunate enough to have become a member due to modelling related stuff (originally)... and then finding other stuff I’m also ‘into’ shared by like minded people... globally.
This thread is surprisingly... still ongoing.... sigh !
Star Wars ‘is’ and forever will be what we loved about it ( whichever iteration and period it’s ‘Hold’ on us was taken in )... , and as many others here have shared... It seems to be different for everyone.
I’m just hoping that... it won’t degenerate into an ugly and unnecessary exercise of demeaning each other’s opinions & selves.
 
I was curious to see why this thread was still going after all this time, especially since this movie is supposedly so reviled (I thought it was ok). Wow. I really don't even know what to think now.

Anyway. Carry on.

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At least you're more honest in your discussion of the ST and can acknowledge that they aren't perfect. I can't say the same for others.
 
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