Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[Ron]

And, that's a good difference. The idea that the Sith can achieve a sort everlasting "life." But its a twisted, perverted, unnatural version of what the Jedi can do. I think that's so intriguing.

I think that's an intriguing concept as well but it wasn't setup properly, rather, it wasn't setup at all. Outside of Palpy vaguely referencing Darth Plagueis, there's no hint anywhere else of the concept of the Sith being able to cheat death (in the movies of course). However, I still wouldn’t have used Palpy to carry out that concept. I'd create a new character instead and set the story far away from the original saga. Yes he's the big bad of the original saga and probably the only charater powerful enough to pull it off but you have to leave him dead to preserve the impact of Luke's victory and Anakin's sacrifice. I don't regard the sequel trilogy as canon myself but it is and it's unfortunate that perhaps the most emotional scene in Star Wars - Vader redeeming himself and saving Luke by killing the Emperor - has become less meaningful. If you regard the canon, you can't watch the last 15 minutes of ROTJ anymore without thinking "Welp, so much for happily ever after".

 

[Joek3rr]

The precedent that was set was that they can come back in an extremely limited capacity. Not, corporeally in full strength or stronger form. We don't see any of those characters coming back and manipulating squat until the ST.

True. But we had only seen Jedi do this at this point. This is first time (on screen) we've seen a Sith do something like this.

 

[Joek3rr]

Where in the movie did he send his spirit into a clone? Where in the movie do they even say that's what happened? Those images don't show anything other than some light effects, one of which looks like it's from Clone Wars and not one of the movies.

What I actually want is for the Emperor to be dead at the end of Return of the Jedi. That was a better ending. But you know, here we are.

His spirit has to go somewhere. Either a clone or into the Force. Just how things work. So it's implied.

But I have to ask. Why is it so important to the details? When they've never touched on why Jedi become Force ghosts. In the films that is.

Though I have to admit I wish they had kept the little exchange between Kylo and Palpatine.
"Your a clone."
"More then a clone, less then man."
Just hearing Ian say those words sent chills up my spin.

 

[Psab keel]

Considering the fact that one weak and vague line of dialog is used to explain it away is the equivalent of JJ and Chris basically telling the audience don't think about it or you'll break the illusion. That's crap writing if you ask me.

If you have to ask why it doesn't work after me explaining my reasoning for 3 pages then perhaps I'll just move on.

I'm just glad this trilogy is over.

 

[Joek3rr]

Considering the fact that one weak and vague line of dialog is used to explain it away is the equivalent of JJ and Chris basically telling the audience don't think about it or you'll break the illusion. That's crap writing if you ask me.

If you have to ask why it doesn't work after me explaining my reasoning for 3 pages then perhaps I'll just move on.

I'm just glad this trilogy is over.

Thus goes every argument between fans anymore.

"They don't explain it."
"Actually they do."
"Well I don't like the explanation."
"Okay....."

I am sorry you dislike this trilogy so much. I wish I could get you to enjoy just a little bit. Hope your staying well though the pandemic!

 

[Psab keel]

A vague line of dialog is nothing more than speculation on his part, which is no more than the audience would know, therefore it's a means to shut them up so they won't question it further. Not to mention the major continuity issues that the premise of his survival raises that we've been over since it was announced that Palpatine would be returning. But I'm not interested in going in circles anymore.

I'm glad you enjoy the movies. I'll just stick to the ones I do like. I hope you and the Mrs. are well too and everyone is healthy. My best to you!

 

[Bigdaddy]

Nobody saw the end of ROTJ and thought "that blue light was the Emperor escaping!". That wasn't the intent of that visual effect in 1983, if it helps some fans enjoy the ST that's fine but don't lie to yourself about what writing is.
I love the original Highlander but can honestly admit to myself that it's mostly a dumpster fire. Everybody loves something stupid!

 

[The Brahma Bull]

Nobody saw the end of ROTJ and thought "that blue light was the Emperor escaping!". That wasn't the intent of that visual effect in 1983, if it helps some fans enjoy the ST that's fine but don't lie to yourself about what writing is.
I love the original Highlander but can honestly admit to myself that it's mostly a dumpster fire. Everybody loves something stupid!

The explanation is like a fan at a convention asked if the blue light was the emperor escaping and someone on the panel simply had no idea because nobody thought about it and knew that it was just lazy writing but this someone just said "Yep Kid, exactly!" and was happy that some dude out of the audience gets kind a explanation for their plot holes.

 

[CT1138]

Considering the fact that one weak and vague line of dialog is used to explain it away is the equivalent of JJ and Chris basically telling the audience don't think about it or you'll break the illusion. That's crap writing if you ask me.

Star Wars is built on "don't think about it or you'll break the illusion."

Why do starfighters make sounds in space?
"Don't think about it or you'll break the illusion."

How do lightsabers work?
"Don't think about it or you'll break the illusion."

Why does stuff blow up in a big fireball in space?
"Don't think about it or you'll break the illusion."

Why don't the Stormtroopers ever hit anything?
"Don't think about it or you'll break the illusion."

How does the giant slug breath in the asteroid?
"Don't think about it or you'll break the illusion."

 

[Psab keel]

I disagree. Each of those examples has more plausibility within the context of their respective films otherwise it seems to suggest that all the films are somewhat dumb, which they aren't.

Not to mention those are merely tangential examples that have nothing to do with the overall plot. Palpatine returning is the entire premise of this movie so there better be a good reason for it.

 

[Joek3rr]

A vague line of dialog is nothing more than speculation on his part, which is no more than the audience would know, therefore it's a means to shut them up so they won't question it further. Not to mention the major continuity issues that the premise of his survival raises that we've been over since it was announced that Palpatine would be returning. But I'm not interested in going in circles anymore.

I'm glad you enjoy the movies. I'll just stick to the ones I do like. I hope you and the Mrs. are well too and everyone is healthy. My best to you!

Well are doing great! Expecting our first youngling on August 12th!

 

[Psab keel]

With everything going on today it's nice to hear something good happening in the world. Congratulations to you and your wife! That's wonderful news.

 

[Joek3rr]

Nobody saw the end of ROTJ and thought "that blue light was the Emperor escaping!". That wasn't the intent of that visual effect in 1983, if it helps some fans enjoy the ST that's fine but don't lie to yourself about what writing is.
I love the original Highlander but can honestly admit to myself that it's mostly a dumpster fire. Everybody loves something stupid!

It's a retroactive change. But it was Tom and Cam's idea when George told them to bring back Palpatine in The Dark Empire comic. And since then it was used a the appearance of Sith Alchemy in both The Clone Wars and Rebels.

 

[Joek3rr]

Slightly off topic. Does anyone have any of Ralph Mcquarrie's concept art of Palpatine's death? I heard somewheres he's releasing blue flames or something?

 

[Bigdaddy]

It's a retroactive change. But it was Tom and Cam's idea when George told them to bring back Palpatine in The Dark Empire comic. And since then it was used a the appearance of Sith Alchemy in both The Clone Wars and Rebels.

You can call it retroactive if it helps your enjoyment of the story but that doesn't change that it's simply bad writing.

 

[HeartBlade]

Although the difference in the concept of life between Jedi and Sith have been explored before (Jedi become force ghosts and live on in spirit while Sith live on clinging to the mortal plane, the most prominent example being Darth Sion), it has not been introduced to the movie seeing audience.

the only line we get regarding prologining life is about Darth Plagueis, a Sith legend who could create life due to his knowledge that he could keep people from dying. However, he is unable to save himself which already sets a stripulation (assuming Palps isn’t lying which he could be to seduce Anakin).

it is very possible that Palpatine throughout the years built on this knowledge and thus mastered the ability to also “save himself” from death but then that should be shown on screen in RoS and hinted at throughout the trilogy (maybe Snoke is busy with research and Kylo is constantly tasked with finding holocrons but didn’t know why until RoS). It could have then explained Rey’s sudden ability to give life to others which would have tied better with maybe her also being a clone and getting Palpatine’s knowledge by osmosis since giving life is not a power learnable from a Jedi (the light side).

This also raises the question then that how are we to assume Palpatine is really dead. Reflecting lightning back isn’t much more different than shocking yourself while falling down a shaft and I doubt reflecting force lightning would actually kill Palpatine (he survived Windu). Plus, we now know that Palpatine has the knowledge to “save himself” and if he can do that after falling down a shaft, exploding, and getting caught up in the Death Star exploding, I don’t see why he can’t do it here. Hence why having the ability to revive without some limitation is bad storytelling.

 

[cboath]

I think the inference is suppose to be the Exagol (or whatever it was named) was crucial to the process.

 

[sbaxter]

And yea dragging Darth Maul back was reeeeeally stupid. Especially considering that his character was summed up as "he looks like the devil and has a lightsaber staff". Intriguing and multilayered one...

Have to disagree on that one. They brought back a character who previously had enjoyed the depth of character of Boba Fett -- he had no back story and his dialogue amounted to 16 words (IIRC), but he looks awesome -- and they gave him real depth and weight in Clone Wars and Rebels.

SSB

 

[sbaxter]

Nobody saw the end of ROTJ and thought "that blue light was the Emperor escaping!".

Probably not, but I have to say that I, at least, had gotten to the point in 1983 (I was 15 then) where I wondered if he was really dead. I presumed years later that was the idea, when I had decided Lucas probably wasn't going to visit the post-RotJ time frame. But for a long time I thought he was most likely dead, yet still mindful of the fact that they didn't show us a body.

SSB

 

[cboath]

How do you show a body of someone who was just thrown down 100 stories or so? Terminal velocity kicks in WAY before that. You'd just have a red splotch.