JD
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
It's not necessarily Star Wars - but, the entire medium/genre...
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Pre-release)
- Thread starter rodneyfaile
- Start date
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Where are you quoting that from? That's what used to be the case, up until the entire Expanded Universe concept went away and became Legends. All the new ancillary fiction has been stated by Lucasfilm to be on the same level as the films and is all regarded as one canon. The term Expanded Universe is no longer used to denote novels, comics, etc. It's all just the Star Wars canon.
And regardless, Clone Wars was always considered by LFL to be G-canon, with the films, not C-canon, with the books and such, which is why it wasn't nullified along with the EU. Things in the EU were considered, basically, "sort of canon until they aren't (i.e., George reserved the right to include or overrule anything in the EU, but unless and until he did, it stood), where as now it's "not canon until it is", with a lot of things from the EU already showing up in the new canon, like the Hundred-Year Darkness, Thrawn, Mandalorian Protectors, etc. The Clone Wars, from the get-go, was done with George signing off on everything, writing many episodes himself, and generally treating the series as "Episode 2.5". You might personally not like that, but it's what the creators of new content going forward are working from, so you have no choice but to accept it.
--Jonah
Where are you quoting that from? That's what used to be the case, up until the entire Expanded Universe concept went away and became Legends. All the new ancillary fiction has been stated by Lucasfilm to be on the same level as the films and is all regarded as one canon. The term Expanded Universe is no longer used to denote novels, comics, etc. It's all just the Star Wars canon.
And regardless, Clone Wars was always considered by LFL to be G-canon, with the films, not C-canon, with the books and such, which is why it wasn't nullified along with the EU. Things in the EU were considered, basically, "sort of canon until they aren't (i.e., George reserved the right to include or overrule anything in the EU, but unless and until he did, it stood), where as now it's "not canon until it is", with a lot of things from the EU already showing up in the new canon, like the Hundred-Year Darkness, Thrawn, Mandalorian Protectors, etc. The Clone Wars, from the get-go, was done with George signing off on everything, writing many episodes himself, and generally treating the series as "Episode 2.5". You might personally not like that, but it's what the creators of new content going forward are working from, so you have no choice but to accept it.
--Jonah
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Right and now Thrawn is being pulled from the EU into canon.
Right and now Thrawn is being pulled from the EU into canon.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Yep. That's what I was referring to. Rebels also recently gave us Mandalorian Protectors, pulling that out of the dim past of the old Marvel comics. The new Marvel comics are also tacitly treating the novel Kenobi as canon to draw from, and have a Jedi holocron mention the Hundred-Year Darkness, which was the Second Jedi Schism that led to the exiled fallen Jedi finding the Sith and creating the Sith Empire, leading to all the KOTOR-era stories. That isn't the same as all of that content being made canon, but it was an intentional reference to indicate how the Story Group feel about the material of that period -- they couldn't play favorites and keep some as canon while nullifying other material, so they're letting the keener-eyed readers know that they're going to be working to re-incorporate that era in the new canon, not overwriting it.
Thrawn is now going to be canon, but the exact manner may or may not match prior EU stuff. We know per the EU that he was dinking around as a Grand Admiral doing things at the Emperor's command in known space around the time of the OT (eradicating Rebel cells, going after rogue Imperial Admirals, etc.) and was only sent out to the Unknown Regions shortly before ROTJ. So thus far nothing about his new appearance contradicts his old track record. Curious to see what his new fate will be.
--Jonah
Yep. That's what I was referring to. Rebels also recently gave us Mandalorian Protectors, pulling that out of the dim past of the old Marvel comics. The new Marvel comics are also tacitly treating the novel Kenobi as canon to draw from, and have a Jedi holocron mention the Hundred-Year Darkness, which was the Second Jedi Schism that led to the exiled fallen Jedi finding the Sith and creating the Sith Empire, leading to all the KOTOR-era stories. That isn't the same as all of that content being made canon, but it was an intentional reference to indicate how the Story Group feel about the material of that period -- they couldn't play favorites and keep some as canon while nullifying other material, so they're letting the keener-eyed readers know that they're going to be working to re-incorporate that era in the new canon, not overwriting it.
Thrawn is now going to be canon, but the exact manner may or may not match prior EU stuff. We know per the EU that he was dinking around as a Grand Admiral doing things at the Emperor's command in known space around the time of the OT (eradicating Rebel cells, going after rogue Imperial Admirals, etc.) and was only sent out to the Unknown Regions shortly before ROTJ. So thus far nothing about his new appearance contradicts his old track record. Curious to see what his new fate will be.
--Jonah
JD
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Expanded universe refers to anything that's not the movies. It could be canon... or not canon. It might be canon today... and they might change their minds down the road.
We now have Legends - which is the old Star Wars Expanded Universe that's been wiped out.... and we have the new canon Star Wars expanded universe (Rebels, The Clone Wars and the new novels).
Expanded universe refers to anything that's not the movies. It could be canon... or not canon. It might be canon today... and they might change their minds down the road.
We now have Legends - which is the old Star Wars Expanded Universe that's been wiped out.... and we have the new canon Star Wars expanded universe (Rebels, The Clone Wars and the new novels).
JD
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
I guess it's also worth pointing out that Maul returned prior to Disney's purchase of Lucasfilm. SW:TCW is one the old EU properties to make to the new expanded universe canon.
There are a few different definitions of expanded universe; but all seem mostly to mean the same thing.
The term expanded universe (sometimes called an extended universe) is generally used to denote the 'extension' of a media franchise (i.e. a television show, series of featured films, etc.) with other media (generally comics and original novels). This typically involves new adventures for existing characters already developed within the franchise; however in some case entirely new characters and complex mythology are developed. This is not the same as an adaptation, which is a retelling of the same story in a different universe in canon, usually on a different medium. Nearly every media franchise with a committed fan base has some form of expanded universe. A very popular example of this is fan fictions. Fan fictions are stories created by a fan base that portrays existing characters in new and different ways.
...and,
Expanded Universe refers to everything that is not the primary medium. All that other stuff.
This can create a schism in fans. Some believe the entire Expanded Universe is canon. Others reject it all. Others pick and choose based on closeness to the writers of the primary medium. Expanded Universe material is usually written so that it can be fit in to the canon without having to alter the canon itself. However, later developments in the actual series can make it definitively out of continuity, especially when the main series decides to explain a mystery (such as a character's future) in a way that contradicts the Expanded Universe.
Even if it isn't canon, the Expanded Universe often serves as a place to apply handwavium to the canon through Retcons; this may verge on professional-grade Fan Wank.
I guess it's also worth pointing out that Maul returned prior to Disney's purchase of Lucasfilm. SW:TCW is one the old EU properties to make to the new expanded universe canon.
There are a few different definitions of expanded universe; but all seem mostly to mean the same thing.
The term expanded universe (sometimes called an extended universe) is generally used to denote the 'extension' of a media franchise (i.e. a television show, series of featured films, etc.) with other media (generally comics and original novels). This typically involves new adventures for existing characters already developed within the franchise; however in some case entirely new characters and complex mythology are developed. This is not the same as an adaptation, which is a retelling of the same story in a different universe in canon, usually on a different medium. Nearly every media franchise with a committed fan base has some form of expanded universe. A very popular example of this is fan fictions. Fan fictions are stories created by a fan base that portrays existing characters in new and different ways.
...and,
Expanded Universe refers to everything that is not the primary medium. All that other stuff.
This can create a schism in fans. Some believe the entire Expanded Universe is canon. Others reject it all. Others pick and choose based on closeness to the writers of the primary medium. Expanded Universe material is usually written so that it can be fit in to the canon without having to alter the canon itself. However, later developments in the actual series can make it definitively out of continuity, especially when the main series decides to explain a mystery (such as a character's future) in a way that contradicts the Expanded Universe.
Even if it isn't canon, the Expanded Universe often serves as a place to apply handwavium to the canon through Retcons; this may verge on professional-grade Fan Wank.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
I think at issue is the point of referring to the new material as "expanded universe" when Lucasfilm (to my knowledge) refers to it simply as "new canon", and has largely relegated the term "expanded universe" and "EU" to the pre-2014 material that's been re-branded as "Legends."
It's all well and good to explain how the "new canon" material is still a type of expanded universe, but if that's not the term Lucasfilm uses to describe new canon material, why would we do so?
Of course, if Lucasfilm has actually begin to refer to the new canon novels/comics/shows as "the new expanded universe," I repent in dust and ashes. It's possible they have, but I haven't seen it.
I think at issue is the point of referring to the new material as "expanded universe" when Lucasfilm (to my knowledge) refers to it simply as "new canon", and has largely relegated the term "expanded universe" and "EU" to the pre-2014 material that's been re-branded as "Legends."
It's all well and good to explain how the "new canon" material is still a type of expanded universe, but if that's not the term Lucasfilm uses to describe new canon material, why would we do so?
Of course, if Lucasfilm has actually begin to refer to the new canon novels/comics/shows as "the new expanded universe," I repent in dust and ashes. It's possible they have, but I haven't seen it.
JD
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Also, not all pre-2014 material was banished as non-canon - Star Wars: The Clone Wars (2008-14) remains under the new canon umbrella.
The "new canon" material isn't a type of expanded universe - it is expanded universe. It might not be the term LFL uses, but it's still very much expanded or extended universe material.
Also, not all pre-2014 material was banished as non-canon - Star Wars: The Clone Wars (2008-14) remains under the new canon umbrella.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
All pre-2014 EU material was banished until such time as specific elements were re-incorporated. For the record, The Clone Wars wouldn't have been banished anyway, as it was never considered by GL to be disposable-if-need-be EU material. It was as much canon as the live action films.
All pre-2014 EU material was banished until such time as specific elements were re-incorporated. For the record, The Clone Wars wouldn't have been banished anyway, as it was never considered by GL to be disposable-if-need-be EU material. It was as much canon as the live action films.
JD
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
SW:TCW was considered T-canon (television), not G-canon (George Lucas) by those in charge of the canon-keepers pre-Disney. Still expanded universe and still disposable.
:rolleyes
SW:TCW was considered T-canon (television), not G-canon (George Lucas) by those in charge of the canon-keepers pre-Disney. Still expanded universe and still disposable.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
I... really don't know where you're getting your information/how you're drawing these conclusions. The whole point of the big canon revision by LFL was that there is no distinction in-house between the films, television series, novels, or books. The novels and such aren't part of an expanded universe spun off of the films in this new context -- the novels and films are all different media that are telling different parts of the same unified canon. You're insisting on a distinction they no longer have. At all.
As for Clone Wars... It was never part of the EU. It was canon as the films. George said so at the time, and LFL have reiterated it since. I remember the "canon tiers" back in the day, and one of them was for the EU, and it's notable that the Clone Wars wasn't in that tier. They felt the need to create a new level that was just below the films, but at the same time "more canon" than the EU.
The takeaway, though, is that there isn't going to be a DC Comics style universe reboot again any time in the foreseeable future; all the old KOTOR stuff the Story Group likes and is working to make canon; a lot of the stuff surrounding and just after the films they like and they're working to make as much of that as is consistent with the Prequels, Clone Wars, and TFA canon as well; and whether any one of us likes or dislikes it, this is the canon, and it's pointless to try to "demote" any aspect of it with obsolete terminology.
--Jonah
I... really don't know where you're getting your information/how you're drawing these conclusions. The whole point of the big canon revision by LFL was that there is no distinction in-house between the films, television series, novels, or books. The novels and such aren't part of an expanded universe spun off of the films in this new context -- the novels and films are all different media that are telling different parts of the same unified canon. You're insisting on a distinction they no longer have. At all.
As for Clone Wars... It was never part of the EU. It was canon as the films. George said so at the time, and LFL have reiterated it since. I remember the "canon tiers" back in the day, and one of them was for the EU, and it's notable that the Clone Wars wasn't in that tier. They felt the need to create a new level that was just below the films, but at the same time "more canon" than the EU.
The takeaway, though, is that there isn't going to be a DC Comics style universe reboot again any time in the foreseeable future; all the old KOTOR stuff the Story Group likes and is working to make canon; a lot of the stuff surrounding and just after the films they like and they're working to make as much of that as is consistent with the Prequels, Clone Wars, and TFA canon as well; and whether any one of us likes or dislikes it, this is the canon, and it's pointless to try to "demote" any aspect of it with obsolete terminology.
--Jonah
Jaitea
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Here i'd say
[h=3]Official levels of canon[edit][/h]Since its acquisition by Disney, Lucasfilm now considers official canon to be only the seven released Star Wars theatrical feature films, the Star Wars: The Clone Warsanimated film and television series The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, and every other material released after April 25, 2014, unless otherwise stated.[12]
Prior to April 25, 2014, Lucasfilm maintained an internal database called the Holocron for the express purpose of trying to maintain continuity within all licensed products.[13] The Holocron was originally sorted into four levels, reflecting LFL's canon and continuity policies: G, C, S, and N. A fifth level, T, was instituted to comprise Star Wars: The Clone Wars and Star Wars: Rebels, as well as a sixth level, D, for Star Wars Detours. It is unknown if the current LFL decisions on canon are reflected internally. Below are the known levels of the Holocron prior to April 25, 2014:
J
Here i'd say
[h=3]Official levels of canon[edit][/h]Since its acquisition by Disney, Lucasfilm now considers official canon to be only the seven released Star Wars theatrical feature films, the Star Wars: The Clone Warsanimated film and television series The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, and every other material released after April 25, 2014, unless otherwise stated.[12]
Prior to April 25, 2014, Lucasfilm maintained an internal database called the Holocron for the express purpose of trying to maintain continuity within all licensed products.[13] The Holocron was originally sorted into four levels, reflecting LFL's canon and continuity policies: G, C, S, and N. A fifth level, T, was instituted to comprise Star Wars: The Clone Wars and Star Wars: Rebels, as well as a sixth level, D, for Star Wars Detours. It is unknown if the current LFL decisions on canon are reflected internally. Below are the known levels of the Holocron prior to April 25, 2014:
- G (George Lucas) canon is absolute canon. This category includes the final releases of the seven films, the novelizations of the films, the radio dramas based on the films, the film scripts, and any material found in any other source (published or not) that comes directly from George Lucas himself. G canon outranks all other forms of canon.
- T (Television) canon, which comprises Star Wars: The Clone Wars and Star Wars: Rebels. This level of canon is considered to take precedence over C canon (see below), possibly due to the fact that George Lucas is directly involved with these shows. This level does not include any series before (including the Genndy Tartakovsky's Clone Wars series).
- C (continuity) canon refers to the main body of ESWU work, and is the next most authoritative level of canon. All literature material published under the Star Wars label that doesn't fall into either G, T, S, or N canon is C canon and is considered authoritative as long as it isn't contradicted by G or T canon.
- S (secondary) canon refers to older, less accurate, or less coherent SWEU works, which are immediately overwritten by anything in the main continuity of G and Ccanon, but are fully canon whenever they do not contradict something of higher canon.
- N continuity material is also known as "non-canon" or "non-continuity" material. Lego Star Wars, Disney Infinity, Star Wars Land, "what-if" stories (such as those published under the Infinities label) and anything else that cannot at all fit into continuity is placed into this category. N canon is the only level that is truly non-canon.
- D (Detours) canon refers to the canon of the animated parody television series Star Wars Detours. Despite being completely distinguishable from N canon, it is still completely non-canon. D canon is typically also classified separate from the other forms of canon.
J
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JD
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
The "levels of canon" has been around for years - it's not applicable now that Disney wiped out the old expanded universe.
But, SW:TCW has always been a part of the Star Wars expanded/extended universe - just as anything that is not in a movie is part of the expanded universe. I've posted definitions of expanded/extended universe for you.
The "levels of canon" has been around for years - it's not applicable now that Disney wiped out the old expanded universe.
But, SW:TCW has always been a part of the Star Wars expanded/extended universe - just as anything that is not in a movie is part of the expanded universe. I've posted definitions of expanded/extended universe for you.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
The Tartachovsky Clone Wars series was relagated to a lower form of canon once the GL/Dave Filoni series came about but this show was always considered by LucasFilm as the actual story of Star Wars. I can recall a bit of equivocating from people at LucasFilm in an effort to sort of appease EU fans as CW rolled over some of that content but in every Dave or George interview and podcast or DVD featurette I have listened to since 2008 when the show premiered this content was considered canon which pretty much ended the tiered canon manifesto I think Leeland tried to put forth previously. Rebels is a Disney product and was always canon.
But all this is kind of off topic anyway.
The Tartachovsky Clone Wars series was relagated to a lower form of canon once the GL/Dave Filoni series came about but this show was always considered by LucasFilm as the actual story of Star Wars. I can recall a bit of equivocating from people at LucasFilm in an effort to sort of appease EU fans as CW rolled over some of that content but in every Dave or George interview and podcast or DVD featurette I have listened to since 2008 when the show premiered this content was considered canon which pretty much ended the tiered canon manifesto I think Leeland tried to put forth previously. Rebels is a Disney product and was always canon.
But all this is kind of off topic anyway.
JD
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
It's way off topic. I'm still not sure how or why this is being discussed. I never claimed the expanded universe was not canon - sure the old expanded stuff has been discarded, the new stuff is now the new canon (including The Clone Wars).
...and bringing Darth Maul back is still stupid (well, to me at least).
It's way off topic. I'm still not sure how or why this is being discussed. I never claimed the expanded universe was not canon - sure the old expanded stuff has been discarded, the new stuff is now the new canon (including The Clone Wars).
...and bringing Darth Maul back is still stupid (well, to me at least).
JD
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
But, I agree - the odds of Lor San Tekka returning are pretty much nil.
I hope and expect that this sort of plot device is saved for non-movie canon... thankfully, to my recollection, we haven't had any resurrections on the big screen Star Wars yet (Anakin/Vader doesn't count - because we didn't see him die onscreen). If they were to do it (and I don't really want them to), I think it would be along the lines of Gandalf in LotR.
But, I agree - the odds of Lor San Tekka returning are pretty much nil.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Mark Hamill sounds like he is coming back for 9 so we can maybe shelve the Luke dies in 8 theories.
http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016...iii-confirms-hell-be-back-for-episode-ix.html
Mark Hamill sounds like he is coming back for 9 so we can maybe shelve the Luke dies in 8 theories.
http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016...iii-confirms-hell-be-back-for-episode-ix.html
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Unless he's a force ghost in IX.
Unless he's a force ghost in IX.
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