kristen jones
Master Member
Yet, you're replying to a post that is using bully tactics. :rolleyes
Uhhhh... I'm not employing and bully tactics in my above post.
0.0% bully tactics detected in my words.
Yet, you're replying to a post that is using bully tactics. :rolleyes
Making Holdo a man in uniform isn't a proper comparison. If the man has purple hair and is wearing a party suit, and keeping his plan a secret, then yeah, most folks would still have a problem with it.
She has a plan, and she's keeping it to herself!
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I was speaking specifically to the discussions surrounding "emasculation." But let's break down some of what you're saying.
Suppose:
1. Holdo is a gruff, military man in uniform with a tight-cropped haircut (no funny colors), who withholds his plan?
2. Holdo is a soft-spoken, slender man out of uniform and in plain clothes, with green hair, who withholds his plan?
3. Holdo is a stern woman in military uniform with steel grey hair in a bun, who withholds her plan?
Otherwise, leave the dialogue the same. How's it play?...
My only problem with Holdo is the plan, not keeping it secret but not even mentioning that she has one. It made a bad situation worse, when a commander could be giving everyone a little assurance.
By making Holdo an against-type character, and by not explaining anything, we're instantly alongside Poe in our sense of being disoriented and wondering just how the hell this person, of all people, has any authority. If it were a stern or gruff military man, there's that much more chance that we might get a sense that his authority is legitimate, and therefore Poe is being an idiot. Leia already got done admonishing him for disobeying orders, so when he disobeys Admiral Gruffguy, maybe we can read the writing on the wall and realize Poe is headed down a very stupid path. But, by having Holdo be this very feminine, odd-looking woman, we're primed to doubt her authority and therefore side with Poe. In other words, the movie plays on our own unconscious biases and coded imagery to have us personally experience exactly what Poe did.
Just a theory.
Not yours - the one you were quoting.Uhhhh... I'm not employing and bully tactics in my above post.
0.0% bully tactics detected in my words.
I don't know what to tell you. You hated it, I didn't. we are both intelligent adults... and we disagree. That is all. And I don't begrudge anyone for disliking it. What I do begrudge is the implication that because I did like it--and because i stick up for that fact--that i am somehow less intelligent, or that it should be a surprise to you that someone (like me) whom you view as intelligent should somehow be above liking something just because others don't.
In the end, we disagree. And I'm OK with that. we agree on enough other things that I'm happy to let this one pass.
Not yours - the one you were quoting.
I was speaking specifically to the discussions surrounding "emasculation." But let's break down some of what you're saying.
Suppose:
1. Holdo is a gruff, military man in uniform with a tight-cropped haircut (no funny colors), who withholds his plan?
2. Holdo is a soft-spoken, slender man out of uniform and in plain clothes, with green hair, who withholds his plan?
3. Holdo is a stern woman in military uniform with steel grey hair in a bun, who withholds her plan?
Otherwise, leave the dialogue the same. How's it play?
I think the "leader withholds plan" is always going to seem weird within the context of a movie (where we, the audience, are used to being in on the plan), but it will seem more palatable and certainly less emasculating when either (A) the person is "coded" as military (e.g. wearing a military uniform, speaks in a very matter-of-fact way), or (B) the person is a man. The emasculation stuff comes in primarily because Holdo is "coded" as very feminine, and because we aren't used to seeing very feminine women pulling rank on very masculine men. But otherwise, it's just a dressing-down by a senior officer.
I also think that much of the "the character is poorly written" stuff would be eliminated specifically with a military man in uniform because we're primed to accept that kind of stock character (e.g., the Top Gun example, Gunny Highway in Heartbreak Ridge, etc.). We wouldn't be wondering "What?! Who the hell is this? Where did Admiral Holdo come from? How does THIS guy have so much authority? Someone needs to explain all of this!" because, again, visually it all just plays to type. Whereas Laura Dern's Holdo is dramatically counter to the stock character, which automatically starts your brain wondering "WTF?!" and demanding explanations, consciously or unconsciously.
So, here's a thought. Kind of a crazy one.
What if all of that was on purpose?
What if the entire reason why Holdo looks the way she does is to create in the audience exactly the kind of response they had? What if the purpose is confusion and disorientation, and all of that is done so that we sympathize with Poe and support his plan? It's essential for the audience to buy into Poe's (and Finn's and Rose's) plan, or else we'll treat the entire thing as a stupid idea and stop rooting for them to succeed. (Which in turn will undercut Leia's dramatic re-entrance.)
By making Holdo an against-type character, and by not explaining anything, we're instantly alongside Poe in our sense of being disoriented and wondering just how the hell this person, of all people, has any authority. If it were a stern or gruff military man, there's that much more chance that we might get a sense that his authority is legitimate, and therefore Poe is being an idiot. Leia already got done admonishing him for disobeying orders, so when he disobeys Admiral Gruffguy, maybe we can read the writing on the wall and realize Poe is headed down a very stupid path. But, by having Holdo be this very feminine, odd-looking woman, we're primed to doubt her authority and therefore side with Poe. In other words, the movie plays on our own unconscious biases and coded imagery to have us personally experience exactly what Poe did.
Just a theory.
My only problem with Holdo is the plan, not keeping it secret but not even mentioning that she has one. It made a bad situation worse, when a commander could be giving everyone a little assurance.
I'll blame the water - although I hope you weren't affected.Ahhhh...okie. Sorry mate. I misunderstood.
Sorry, Kristen - the movie absolutely created the toxicity.
It's simple cause and effect. The toxicity didn't exist until the movie did. The toxicity is a reaction to the movie.
TLJ is an insult to Star Wars fans. A literal insult to Star Wars fans.
The only way it could be more blatant is if Rian Johnson himself came to your house and personally **** on your porch.
I am baffled that a woman of your intelligence is defending this film.
How can you not see it for what it is?
So I'm quoting you directly with this, but also I want to generally address this since others have raised it.Not sure about 2, but 1 and 3 Would be better, but still bad. Because there's actually TWO problems with Laura Dern's Holdo. One is that Laura Dern simply isn't believable as a military leader. Definitely as civilian resistant, or a Senator, even as a civilian commander which there IS precedent for in universe. But not as a military officer, any more than Don Knotts would be believable as Mad Max. Just because someone is a good actor (and Laura Dern is a very good actor) doesn't mean they are right for every role.
The second problem is the "withholds the plan" part. :
That's not a crazy thought at all, I think it's possible and even likely that it WAS on purpose, for exactly the reasons you describe. And for most of us, that IS bad writing. For one, it's contrived: the story is not guided by the story but by how it leads the audience along. Not telling US is one thing, but making it so she specifically doesn't tell him just so we don't know is contrived.
But also because while it does surprise us, the surprise is how surprisingly obtuse their leader is. Part of being a leader is understanding how what you're saying is going to affect those following you. Especially if the main reason they are following you is because they are NOT the ones who blindly follow authority. They are specifically an entire organization built around the idea that you should only follow leaders who are doing the right thing.
ALSO, I'm really not sure why so many have issues with the purple hair. I thought the hair was nice. Didn't add or take anything away from the character.
Couldn't have said it better.
I'll blame the water - although I hope you weren't affected.
One issue I hadn't thought of until recently is, why does Rose support Poe's plan over Holdo? Rose is from Holdo's ship and came over to the Raddus with her. The bombers were part of Holdo's ship as well. Poe is publicly seen demoted for his irresponsible attack causing the loss of the bombers. If Rose has a natural conflict in this movie, it seems like it would be with Poe because he's partially to blame for her sister's death.