I don’t disagree with that either, I don’t think being more inclusive and hiring the best are mutually exclusive.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
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I don’t disagree with that either, I don’t think being more inclusive and hiring the best are mutually exclusive.
Solo4114
Master Member
And....so what? That's the meta-narrative reason why Rey is powerful (which itself is debatable). The in-universe reason appears to be because both she and Ben (who, you'll also recall, is equally as powerful as Rey) represent "vergences" in the Force, which is a concept that has appeared both in the PT and in the Clone Wars cartoon and comes directly from George himself. The basic theory (although we don't know a ton of detail) is that a "vergence" is basically where the Force gathers and becomes extremely powerful, either in light or in dark or in both. Vergences can apparently be both people and places, so the Dark Side cave on Dagobah is, I think, a vergence, as is Luke, as is Anakin, as is Ach-To, as is Rey, as is Ben. They're all uniquely powerful instances of the Force, and they spring up out of nowhere.
Nobody's sitting around asking why Anakin is so powerful when he's a kid and before he's trained. Nobody bats an eye at him flying podracers at age 9. Nobody seems the slightest bit put out by the notion of him blowing up the Droid control ship over Naboo. All that is before he's ever been trained. Luke blows up the Death Star and can block laser blasts with his sabre after, what, a 2 hour training session with Obi-Wan? But people lose their damn minds when it's Rey, and claim it's all part of some giant conspiracy, and evidence of there being some nefarious "agenda."
Doesn't that strike you as a double standard?
"Requires 7 years prior experience to get this job." "Well, if you won't GIVE me a job, how the hell am I supposed to GET the experience?!"
If only a proven track record in blockbusters were necessary, guess what: no post-Schumacher Batman films. No Matrix films. No Star Wars. No Terminator. No Iron Man. No Winter Soldier. No Guardians of the Galaxy. NONE of the people who directed those films -- all white dudes (at the time the films were made) I'd add -- would have been given a chance.
You gotta start somewhere, so if KK wants to give a gig to a woman she thinks can do the job, I say go for it. I watched Wonder Woman recently, and I really enjoyed it. It had a great vibe to it, and I was really impressed with Gal Gadot's portrayal of Diana. Years ago, Joss Whedon was talking about making a Wonder Woman film, but I'm glad that gig went to Patty Jenkins, given what wound up on screen. And what was her last film before that? Monster, in 2003. A small, indie film about a female serial killer. But, hey, now she has a proven track record of making successful blockbuster films.
I'm with Bryan on this. I don't see where hiring a woman counts as "identity politics" any more than hiring a man does, if you think whomever you've hired can do the job. Can the woman do it? Yes? Awesome. Get to work. Can a man do it? Yes? Awesome. Get to work. But the thing about being more inclusive in picking the creative team -- especially including directors -- is that they bring a different perspective to storytelling than the same old white dudes. That's not to say white dudes can't tell great stories. Of course they can. And clearly, they can tell crappy ones and still make bank (lookin' at you, Michael Bay...). But I think that you won't get a film like Wonder Woman or Black Panther with a white dude. The point of view will simply be...different. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I want more movies like those two films. I want a variety of experience and stories. There will still be plenty of movies from white dudes that I'll enjoy, but if I can have that diversity of storytelling? I want it, and I think I'm a lot more likely to get it if the stories are about characters, and created by people, other than just white guys.
Dontdissthefett
Well-Known Member
Yeah it sure would strike me as a double standard if the two were at all comparable. If ANH and ESB occurred over the course of 2-3 days and Luke went from being a farm boy to defeating Darth Vader on his first face off without a scratch, defeating the superbly trained Emperor’s Royal Guards, and topping it off with lifting mountains of boulders with the force without batting an eye, I’d have questioned that too. But that’s not how it went. Luke suffered trials and tribulations, faced Darth Vader and lost a hand, almost his life, and found out he still had a long way to go.
Anakin did not display great force use before his training either. It was established he was a good pilot, that’s NOT force usage. He made a mistake that landed him in the docking bat and almost didn’t get, landed a lucky shot before he did. Again, NOT force use.
Rey was made all powerful right away with the laziest of lazy excuses that the force equals itself out solely to justify her Mary Sue status.
Wouldn’t that mean then for every trained Jedi, there would be an equally powerful Sith/darkside user that would just pop up without ever having trained? Yea it would, but I can guarantee you’ll argue that “that’s not how the force works” because that would be ridiculous, and so is Rey. KK wanted her to be all powerful, ignoring the past premise that it takes time to learn the Force, the acquire the skills and acumen needed to weild it like a master.
Or she just wanted to show that a man does all the work and women benefit from it too. Sounds absurd right? That’s exactly what happened in the movies..
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LordHorusNL
Well-Known Member
I guess i just don't think that only a woman can make a movie like Wonder Woman or only a black guy can make Black Panther
These are not documentaries or drama's that benefit from a specific cultural or political view, they're stupid sci-fi movies.
A good director is a good director, period.
Hiring a woman in itself is not "identity politics" obviously, however when you hire that woman over a man that is more qualified just because she happens to be female or the other way around. Now that is.
OldKen
Master Member
Solo4114
Master Member
>sigh<
Ok. Here we go.
1. There's evidence within the films that Luke was already unconsciously using the Force prior to the events of ANH. In the discussion about making the shot on the Death Star's exhaust port, "Fake Wedge" says how impossible it is to make a shot like that. Luke says it isn't, and that he used to bullseye womprats in his T-16 back home, and how they aren't much bigger than 2 meters. So, right there, Luke's claiming he's done something pretty extraordinary, which even apparently seasoned pilots are saying can't be done. Then he goes and does it by using the Force. So, did part of Ben's training with him on the Falcon include an in-depth study of affecting the trajectory of proton torpedoes with the Force? No. He just does it. He just uses the Force, and kablooie, there goes the Death Star. What's more, we already see that Red Leader fails his shot, even though he's the squadron leader. And we see that Gold group gets completely destroyed, even though they have ships meant for this kind of task, and are supposed to be protected by Red squadron.
2. Luke ends up using the Force to block Han's remote's shots with the lightsabre. That's after a conversation with Ben on the Falcon. I'm sorry, but you think that counts as "training?" I mean, if I tell you "Reach out with your FEELINGS" do you think that you're gonna be able to, I dunno, block a bullet with a sword? The implication of that sequence is that Luke is powerful and that he's catching on quickly and is extremely powerful. We don't -- at that point -- have a context for what power with the Force really means, but we know it means you can do some pretty extraordinary things. We learn more about what the Force lets you do by the time we get to ESB.
3. In ESB Luke trains with Yoda. Do you know for how long? I sure don't. Was it a week? A month? A couple of days? Whatever it was, it wasn't an amount of time that is readily obvious, but it certainly seems shorter than several months. We don't know how long it takes the Falcon to make it from Hoth to Bespin. We don't know how long it took Luke to get to Dagobah or from there to Bespin. We don't really have a sense of any of this because time moves at the speed of plot in Star Wars. What we do know is that Luke trains....some...with Yoda, gets stronger, but is already strong before he shows up. Let's not forget that, with no training at all, he pulls his sabre to him in the wampa cave, in spite of having been clocked on the head by the Wampa, and strung up upside down in arctic conditions for who knows how long. But let's say Luke trains for even several months. You think that doesn't indicate someone who is incredibly powerful? Just because he's powerful?
4. Anakin. Oh man...Anakin... At 9 years old, he's already apparently an experienced podracer. The movie makes a point of saying that he's literally the only human who can do it. Zero training. Qui-Gon checks his midichlorian levels and finds that he's off the charts, and stronger than Yoda. Now, much as I find the midichlorian thing to be irritating (and I prefer to think of it as correlative rather than causative), the film still goes to lengths to point out how much raw power Anakin has. Then later, with zero training at all, he hops in an N-1 starfighter, somehow manages to survive the battle, and blows up the Droid control ship, and then lands the thing. At 9 years old. No training, no experience. He just does it because he's powerful. More powerful than Yoda. And he hasn't "earned" any of that. He just is powerful. Qui-Gon even says that he thinks he's discovered a "vergence" with Anakin (which is the first time we hear the term).
We don't actually know how long Rey is on Ach-To for. Because, again, Star Wars moves at the speed of plot. The only time clock we have that we know if is how long the fleet has left before it runs out of fuel at one point in TLJ. The implication, though, is that Rey is trained as much as she needs to be. She's powerful in the same way Anakin was: she just is powerful, and that power is largely a result of the Force itself. Rey herself notes it by saying that something's always been in her, but now it's awake. Snoke notes it, saying that he always knew Ben's lightside equal would eventually rise. And so she does. Because the Force says so. Just like it did with 9-year-old Anakin, just like it does with Luke.
Tell me again how it's not a double-standard?
Solo4114
Master Member
I guess i just don't think that only a woman can make a movie like Wonder Woman or only a black guy can make Black Panther
These are not documentaries or drama's that benefit from a specific cultural or political view, they're stupid sci-fi movies.
A good director is a good director, period.
Hiring a woman in itself is not "identity politics" obviously, however when you hire that woman over a man that is more qualified just because she happens to be female or the other way around. Now that is.
That puts the rabbit in the hat, though, by presuming off the bat that the man is more qualified than the woman. What makes post-Memento Christopher Nolan more qualified than post-Monster Patty Jenkins? What makes post-Creed Ryan Coogler less qualified than the Russo Brothers?
Take a look at their filmographies prior to getting the gigs they got.
Prior to Black Panther, Ryan Coogler had directed Creed and Fruitvale Station. That's it. Prior to Captain America: The Winter Soldier, the Russo Bros. had directed You, Me & Dupree (a Kate Hudson/Owen Wilson comedy) and two other feature films I've never heard of. They'd done TV work (as had Patty Jenkins between Monster and Wonder Woman), but that was it.
So, who on that list was more obviously qualified before getting the gig they got?
And I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree that a director's perspective and experiences are meaningless for a work of narrative fiction.
Greenie
Sr Member
She made it this far by riding the talents of other men. Now, she is holding her position as alpha female in a sea of men. Hiring females will diminish her status as such. This is crystal clear just like her feminist agenda.
[Women can't relate to male characters. The force is female. I owe nothing to male fans] all statements attributed to her.
I guess i just don't think that only a woman can make a movie like Wonder Woman or only a black guy can make Black Panther
These are not documentaries or drama's that benefit from a specific cultural or political view, they're stupid sci-fi movies.
A good director is a good director, period.
This is true with the caveat that a woman director for WW or a black Director for Black Panther can have the same technical directorial skills as an accomplished white male director BUT they also bring with them a unique persepctive that a white director may never experience. Which makes sense and is why the lives they live and how that informs their work is important and worth giving voice to.
Dontdissthefett
Well-Known Member
Lol you are so worked up over this it’s hilarious
1. If Lebron James makes a shot that other experienced basketball players say is “impossible” he was using the force to an incredible, masterful degree? Lol
2. Luke ends up using the Force to block Han's remote's shots with the lightsabre” - Yea that’s what the whole exercise is for, try to block the shots. There were shots he didn’t block too. After a conversation or a bit of instruction I could play a chord on a piano, does that mean I’m ready to play Carnegie Hall? Does that mean Luke is a Jedi master ready to take on the world?
3. Ok, so the time difference between ANH and ESB is a few years, so you don’t think it’s plausible that in a few YEARS time of practicing that Luke may have been able to struggle enough to pull his lightsaber to him? Again, how is that at ALL similar to Rey again? It took Luke years to be able to do that but she does it by the end of TFA! LOL
You also talk about how strong Luke is already before he goes to see Yoda, but he still is almost killed by Vader, this after YEARS of practicing on his own and getting instruction from Yoda for an undetermined amount of time. Once again, NOTHING like Rey beating Kylo all on her own after what, a day or two? Lol
4. Oh you are really pulling at straws.. Anakin is a pilot BEFORE we meet him. Did he have some intuition because of the force? Yea I’m sure. Even you said the word yourself, UNCONSCIOUS. Was he flying races against other Force users that WERE trained and much more experienced AND STILL beating them? No? Another false equivalency.
Until you show me ANY character in the movies that over the course of DAYS goes from a non-force user, to having a hissy fit because a lightsaber gave her a scary dream, to doing Jedi mind tricks when she should and could not have any idea they were a thing or could be done, to beating a trained force user, to killing elite guards, to moving mountains of boulders with the force all with only a bit of a pep talk, the story of Rey will be the story of a Mary Sue. All the manufactured lines of dialogue that Rey says in order to “justify” her Mary Sue status doesn’t disprove her being exactly that.
Want to celebrate in the joy of all-powerful women? Go ahead, burn your bra and however else you want to celebrate. All your whining about fictitious double standards does little to convince me, or the scores of other fans out there that see it for what it is-KK’s agenda front and center.
Oh, and the explanation for Rey is that the force grows in her because of Kylo, light rising to meet the darkness or whatever nonsense.
No mention of that turd of a so-called plot point? That’s because it’s indefensible.
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So giving the second movie in a trilogy to a writer/director and telling him there's a blank slate, who's fault was that? JJ did have ideas, we know he had a draft/treatment for VIII that wasn't used by Rian. We know he had an idea for Rey's parents, that LFL gave Rian veto power over by allowing him to do whatever he wanted. We know that JJ had a completely different vision for Luke's character in VIII. And we know that Rian asked JJ for changes in VII that JJ disagreed with and refused to do. I don't think it's fair to blame JJ for delivering a movie that had people talking and speculating for two years, and gave TLJ a hype lead-in that anyone would envy. Rian is the one who failed to bridge the gap between two consecutive movies in the same trilogy, which should have been the easier task.
Look, I hated Luke's Force projection too. I'm right there with you.:lol
Wow....dude, you have serious issues. Dan and I are both college educate while male professionals with a wife and kids and seem to be able to handle ourselves as men, what's gone wrong for you that you can't?
Ah yes, the ad hominem attack. Perfectly predictable, from the man who is out of ammunition. :lol
I also am college educated. And in the real world, you'd report to me...like a school boy--your hands sticky, from candy.
I don't even know what that implies! Aren't we in the real world now?! Sounds kinky.
It wasnt ad homenien it was a simple question. I'm a traditional, fairly conservative family guy and see no assault to my identity as such. You say you are under assault by these forces. Why do our world views differ since we both live in the real world?
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Not that I disagree with your post overall, but he was getting a signal boost from Obi-Wan. It wasn't until Ben was talking to him that Vader even got a ping from the Force.
I disagree, Tread. Sure, Ben spoke to him moments beforehand. But Luke was weaving side-to-side in the trench, and Vader's difficulty getting his crosshairs on him prompted him to say, "The Force is strong with this one.". Ben encouraged Luke to use the Force. But it was Luke who tapped into it! That was all Luke, man! Don't sell him short.
The Wook
Ben was already talking to him when Vader said that. So we'll just have to summon Ben and Luke's Force ghosts and ask.
Ben had to at least have SOMETHING to do with it. Like Luke was doing bench presses and needed his spotter to help him finish the final rep.
Ben had to at least have SOMETHING to do with it. Like Luke was doing bench presses and needed his spotter to help him finish the final rep.
Ben was already talking to him when Vader said that. So we'll just have to summon Ben and Luke's Force ghosts and ask.
Ben had to at least have SOMETHING to do with it. Like Luke was doing bench presses and needed his spotter to help him finish the final rep.
Sure, okay.
But just so you know why I was disagreeing, let me try once more to be clear. Vader's, "The Force is strong with this one.", line appeared to be prompted solely by his difficulty in lining up Luke's X-Wing in his crosshairs. And Luke is the one who was solely responsible for that, by virtue of the way he was maneuvering his ship from side-to-side in the trench. Ben wasn't steering the ship for him. That was all Luke, drawing on his piloting skills, and his facility with the Force. I did not get the sense that Ben was running interference on Vader's attempt to lock-in on Luke, either. Only that he was talking to Luke, in the most general terms, to use the Force. (But maybe you felt Ben was jamming Vader's targeting computer, as a helping hand to buy some time for Luke to reach the ideal distance from the target.)
But hey, I'm feeling generous, so I'll go along with your spotter analogy.
And ya know, interestingly, Luke fired the bullseye shot not on Ben's cue, and not seemingly on his own internal cue--but rather on Han's cue. Solo shouted out, "You're all clear, kid, now let's blow this thing and go home!", prompting Luke to immediately fire the shot. So it was Han who told Luke when to fire. From a certain point of view.
The Wook
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Luke's training was brief but at least he had training. Plus because there is a few years gap between ANH and ESB and Luke presumably sees Ben's ghost for the first time in the beginning of Empire, we can infer that any progress Luke has made in that time has been largely self taught. He BARELY is able to Force grab his saber in time in the Wampa cave.
The whole battle with Vader in Empire was one sided. Vader could have killed him at any point but his motive was to convert him, not kill him. Plus Luke's lineage (aka Anakin Skywalker) would give a quick and reasonable explanation as to how Luke could hone his abilities. By the time of Return of the Jedi, Luke has made progress and has become as good of a Jedi Knight as he could ever be, though we can assume that he would never be as powerful as the Jedi of old because his teachings were so short lived.
Rey had no lineage to any Force user that we know of and apparently the Force created her. It's the same crappy idea recycled from Anakin in TPM and it's as stupid now as it was then. Plus she has no instruction of any kind. None whatsoever. Plus she never fails at her attempts to tap into the Force and isn't tempted to give in to the dark side.
Here are some key moments in Luke's journey that expose his flaws, show vulnerability, or instances where he must make a choice that will make him deal with his internal conflicts.
-Luke sees Leia's message but when he tells his uncle about it he is told to erase the message. That also leads to Owen telling Luke that he cannot join the Academy and that Luke must wait another year to go and so he is stuck on the farm.
-When R2 runs off Luke is attacked by the Tusken Raiders and Obi-Wan rescues him. It is revealed that he has been lied to about his father who was in reality a Jedi Knight and not a navigator on a spice freighter as his uncle told him.
-He also learns that his father was murdered by Darth Vader.
-After showing R2's message to him, Ben asks Luke to come with him to Alderaan but Luke refuses because of his obligation to his uncle and the farm.
-Luke's family is murdered and home destroyed, leaving him with no choice but to go with Obi-Wan.
-Obi-Wan uses the Force to get the Sandtroopers off their backs as they enter Mos Eisley.
-He gets shoved around and thrown across the room by the Cantina patrons. Obi-Wan has to cut off the guy's arm to get him to leave Luke alone.
-Luke gets hit by the remote blaster bolts, and only after instruction is able to block the rays.
-Luke is grabbed by the garbage compactor monster and Han has to help him. The monster eventually lets him go, but Luke is the one taken into the water.
-Luke is able to blow up the Death Star when Han returns to get Vader off his back. Had Han not showed up Luke would have been blasted out of the sky.
-Luke is attacked by the Wampa and dragged off to it's cave.
-He is barely able to use the Force to grab his saber from the ground and free himself from the ceiling.
-Han rescues Luke from the frigid temperatures of Hoth.
-Luke crash lands on Dagobah. For a skilled pilot, this shouldn't have been a problem.
-Yoda acts all crazy to test Luke's patience and he fails when he loses his temper with the Jedi Master.
-Yoda tells Luke that he must enter the cave without his weapons and Luke does not listen. There he has the vision of facing Vader
-Luke fails to lift the X-Wing from the bog because he fails to understand Yoda's teaching.
-Luke fails to keep his concentration when lifting rocks, R2, and balancing Yoda when he has a vision of Han and Leia in trouble
-Luke leaves Dagobah before finishing his training to help his friends despite Yoda and Ben's warnings
-Luke's loses his hand and learns the truth that Vader didn't murder his father, but that he IS his father.
-Luke must be rescued by Leia, Lando and Chewie.
Those are just some examples of how Luke progresses as a character. We see his flaws, we see that he is vulnerable and we can relate to him. His ideas are challenged and by Return of the Jedi he is even tempted by the dark side which further escalates his struggle. The whole trilogy builds up to that one moment where he defies the Emperor by refusing to kill Vader. It's triumphant and such an emotionally satisfying peak for his character.
Look at all that we KNOW about Luke as a character, just by watching those three movies. By listing his flaws/ weaknesses and showing his conflicts we as the audience are invested in him because we see ourselves reflected in him. He BECOMES a Jedi by the end of the trilogy because the conflicts (both internal and external) have shaped him. The irony of seeing his weakness is that it actually makes him a stronger character because we witness the change.
What have we learned about Rey thus far?
-She is a scavenger who trades junk for food.
-She lives alone on the wastes of Jakku waiting for the family that abandoned her to return.
--She is mechanically inclined so would have some idea how to fix things
-She is tough enough to defend herself because she does live alone on a harsh desert planet
-She can speak multiple languages because she interacts with lots of species of aliens on her world and at the junkyard
-She does the right thing by not selling BB-8 and generally looking out for him so she does have at least a conscience that she listens to
-Kylo Ren is able to paralyze her and knock her unconscious and just when we see that he is stronger than her in that moment, it is undone when she resists his mind probe later on, is able to tap into his mind and scare him by exposing his weakness. From there on out she is no longer vulnerable.
When she goes after Luke he tells her two things about the Force and lies to her about Kylo Ren, who she suddenly sympathizes with? Even though only days before she hated Ben for killing Han Solo. Mind you Kylo was Han's son and Rey apparently had a stronger attachment to Han than Kylo did? What? And now she is on his side and convinced that she can turn Ben back to the light, when not even Luke could. If anything it makes her arrogant. It's just too convenient and seems more in line with the desires of Rian Johnson rather than a natural progression for Rey as a character. So what if Luke lied about Kylo? (Luke's ridiculous unrealistic motivations aside.) What personal investment does Rey have to a man that kidnapped her and probed her mind without her consent? Why would she even care if Luke tried to kill him? He's a monster in her words. Now she cares about him? I don't buy it in the least.
We simply don't know enough about her character other than she doesn't know what her place in the story is, and quite frankly it's clear that the writers don't know what her place in the story is either because they haven't been able to come up with any answers that aren't either contradictory or outright nonsensical. They don't come across as logical motivations for the natural progression of the character but as plot contrivances to keep the audience invested when there is little to nothing to go on. The blame lays on J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson for that. J. J. for setting it up as a mystery, and Johnson for giving absurd answers to the questions raised.
The whole battle with Vader in Empire was one sided. Vader could have killed him at any point but his motive was to convert him, not kill him. Plus Luke's lineage (aka Anakin Skywalker) would give a quick and reasonable explanation as to how Luke could hone his abilities. By the time of Return of the Jedi, Luke has made progress and has become as good of a Jedi Knight as he could ever be, though we can assume that he would never be as powerful as the Jedi of old because his teachings were so short lived.
Rey had no lineage to any Force user that we know of and apparently the Force created her. It's the same crappy idea recycled from Anakin in TPM and it's as stupid now as it was then. Plus she has no instruction of any kind. None whatsoever. Plus she never fails at her attempts to tap into the Force and isn't tempted to give in to the dark side.
Here are some key moments in Luke's journey that expose his flaws, show vulnerability, or instances where he must make a choice that will make him deal with his internal conflicts.
-Luke sees Leia's message but when he tells his uncle about it he is told to erase the message. That also leads to Owen telling Luke that he cannot join the Academy and that Luke must wait another year to go and so he is stuck on the farm.
-When R2 runs off Luke is attacked by the Tusken Raiders and Obi-Wan rescues him. It is revealed that he has been lied to about his father who was in reality a Jedi Knight and not a navigator on a spice freighter as his uncle told him.
-He also learns that his father was murdered by Darth Vader.
-After showing R2's message to him, Ben asks Luke to come with him to Alderaan but Luke refuses because of his obligation to his uncle and the farm.
-Luke's family is murdered and home destroyed, leaving him with no choice but to go with Obi-Wan.
-Obi-Wan uses the Force to get the Sandtroopers off their backs as they enter Mos Eisley.
-He gets shoved around and thrown across the room by the Cantina patrons. Obi-Wan has to cut off the guy's arm to get him to leave Luke alone.
-Luke gets hit by the remote blaster bolts, and only after instruction is able to block the rays.
-Luke is grabbed by the garbage compactor monster and Han has to help him. The monster eventually lets him go, but Luke is the one taken into the water.
-Luke is able to blow up the Death Star when Han returns to get Vader off his back. Had Han not showed up Luke would have been blasted out of the sky.
-Luke is attacked by the Wampa and dragged off to it's cave.
-He is barely able to use the Force to grab his saber from the ground and free himself from the ceiling.
-Han rescues Luke from the frigid temperatures of Hoth.
-Luke crash lands on Dagobah. For a skilled pilot, this shouldn't have been a problem.
-Yoda acts all crazy to test Luke's patience and he fails when he loses his temper with the Jedi Master.
-Yoda tells Luke that he must enter the cave without his weapons and Luke does not listen. There he has the vision of facing Vader
-Luke fails to lift the X-Wing from the bog because he fails to understand Yoda's teaching.
-Luke fails to keep his concentration when lifting rocks, R2, and balancing Yoda when he has a vision of Han and Leia in trouble
-Luke leaves Dagobah before finishing his training to help his friends despite Yoda and Ben's warnings
-Luke's loses his hand and learns the truth that Vader didn't murder his father, but that he IS his father.
-Luke must be rescued by Leia, Lando and Chewie.
Those are just some examples of how Luke progresses as a character. We see his flaws, we see that he is vulnerable and we can relate to him. His ideas are challenged and by Return of the Jedi he is even tempted by the dark side which further escalates his struggle. The whole trilogy builds up to that one moment where he defies the Emperor by refusing to kill Vader. It's triumphant and such an emotionally satisfying peak for his character.
Look at all that we KNOW about Luke as a character, just by watching those three movies. By listing his flaws/ weaknesses and showing his conflicts we as the audience are invested in him because we see ourselves reflected in him. He BECOMES a Jedi by the end of the trilogy because the conflicts (both internal and external) have shaped him. The irony of seeing his weakness is that it actually makes him a stronger character because we witness the change.
What have we learned about Rey thus far?
-She is a scavenger who trades junk for food.
-She lives alone on the wastes of Jakku waiting for the family that abandoned her to return.
--She is mechanically inclined so would have some idea how to fix things
-She is tough enough to defend herself because she does live alone on a harsh desert planet
-She can speak multiple languages because she interacts with lots of species of aliens on her world and at the junkyard
-She does the right thing by not selling BB-8 and generally looking out for him so she does have at least a conscience that she listens to
-Kylo Ren is able to paralyze her and knock her unconscious and just when we see that he is stronger than her in that moment, it is undone when she resists his mind probe later on, is able to tap into his mind and scare him by exposing his weakness. From there on out she is no longer vulnerable.
When she goes after Luke he tells her two things about the Force and lies to her about Kylo Ren, who she suddenly sympathizes with? Even though only days before she hated Ben for killing Han Solo. Mind you Kylo was Han's son and Rey apparently had a stronger attachment to Han than Kylo did? What? And now she is on his side and convinced that she can turn Ben back to the light, when not even Luke could. If anything it makes her arrogant. It's just too convenient and seems more in line with the desires of Rian Johnson rather than a natural progression for Rey as a character. So what if Luke lied about Kylo? (Luke's ridiculous unrealistic motivations aside.) What personal investment does Rey have to a man that kidnapped her and probed her mind without her consent? Why would she even care if Luke tried to kill him? He's a monster in her words. Now she cares about him? I don't buy it in the least.
We simply don't know enough about her character other than she doesn't know what her place in the story is, and quite frankly it's clear that the writers don't know what her place in the story is either because they haven't been able to come up with any answers that aren't either contradictory or outright nonsensical. They don't come across as logical motivations for the natural progression of the character but as plot contrivances to keep the audience invested when there is little to nothing to go on. The blame lays on J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson for that. J. J. for setting it up as a mystery, and Johnson for giving absurd answers to the questions raised.
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