Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)
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Solo4114
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Well, it's not entirely conclusive, but basically, it sounds like the story is as follows:
- The post-ROTJ EU is being ignored, at least in terms of events, and possibly the characters as well. You might see a Mara Jade, but none of the existing details necessarily will apply. She may or may not have been the Emperor's Hand (which may or may not be a position, even). She may or may not be Luke's wife or love interest. She may or may not be a Jedi or force-sensitive. None of the events will necessarily survive, unless it's convenient to telling the VII-IX stories.
- Concepts, places, organizations, etc. may be lifted from the EU as they already have (e.g., holocrons, Coruscant, Sienar Fleet Systems), if they're useful, cool, and help the story. Others of the same may be overruled as needed. So, Korriban may not be the Sith homeworld. Or it may be. Or it may be until we discover new information that it was actually Korriban's twin planet of Plimby. Who knows.
- The new "Legends" banner should probably be read as "Alternate Universes."
For the most part, I don't see this state of affairs as being different from what existed before in any practical sense. The films and "canon" material was always able to overwrite the EU material. Lucas made that clear eons ago. He'd lift what he liked, and ditch the rest. The new approach is basically identical, except for the fact that they're tellign stories in an area where people already wrote (Lucas made a point of not having people refer to past events pre-ANH, as I recall, except for the ancient history of the universe, like the KOTOR era). So, there's more likelihood that material will be overwritten now, but only because they're actually writing material for an era that may require overwriting.
On the plus side, for those who love the EU, it looks like the people tasked with writing Star Wars' future are at least passingly familiar with and indeed fans of much of the EU. So, they'll likely want to preserve SOME of it. From my perspective, I'd expect plenty of concepts to survive, like a LOT of the details and data and technical specs on vehicles and weapons that was background info for the RPG. I'd also expect plenty of alien racial characteristics and background info will survive. Gotals will still be Gotals, Ithorians will still speak from two mouths and be naturally drawn to environmentalism, etc. But a LOT of the post-ROTJ events will be ditched. The Empire won't have tried to use "World Eaters" on Mon Calamari the way they were depicted in Dark Empire (although the E-wing may survive). The Vong? Gone. Which means Chewie's probably alive! Yay! The Solo twins (and Anakin Solo) are probably not going to exist, or if they do, won't have the history that's been depicted.
I really think that story-wise, they'll dump just about everything post-ROTJ rather than try to fit it in, or will at least lift stuff from it and flagrantly ignore the rest. That's probably a good idea, because maintaining that stuff would be at least counterproductive, if not impossible, while writing new material. To the extent that they end up contradicted...well, you can always go read your Legacy banner books.
Anyway, I think this is all good news, on the whole. They won't throw out everything, but they aren't letting the EU paint them into a corner. :thumbsup
--EDIT--
One other point to make. The key difference between the old era and the new era is that, in the new era....there is no EU. By that, I mean that anything newly developed IS canon. Comics, games, novels, TV shows, films, etc. It's ALL going to be canon now, or at least that's the idea. The old "Pre-U," if you will, is what will be treated like a buffet where you take what you want and leave the rest. But going forward, all material is intended to be canon. No more overriding what was written AFTER this change, except by doing so within the story itself (e.g. a "new discovery" or whathaveyou).
So, to clarify:
- Pre-U: basically treated as it was during the Lucas era. Mostly ignored, but with some bits and bobs lifted from it.
- New U: everything is canon.
Well, it's not entirely conclusive, but basically, it sounds like the story is as follows:
- The post-ROTJ EU is being ignored, at least in terms of events, and possibly the characters as well. You might see a Mara Jade, but none of the existing details necessarily will apply. She may or may not have been the Emperor's Hand (which may or may not be a position, even). She may or may not be Luke's wife or love interest. She may or may not be a Jedi or force-sensitive. None of the events will necessarily survive, unless it's convenient to telling the VII-IX stories.
- Concepts, places, organizations, etc. may be lifted from the EU as they already have (e.g., holocrons, Coruscant, Sienar Fleet Systems), if they're useful, cool, and help the story. Others of the same may be overruled as needed. So, Korriban may not be the Sith homeworld. Or it may be. Or it may be until we discover new information that it was actually Korriban's twin planet of Plimby. Who knows.
- The new "Legends" banner should probably be read as "Alternate Universes."
For the most part, I don't see this state of affairs as being different from what existed before in any practical sense. The films and "canon" material was always able to overwrite the EU material. Lucas made that clear eons ago. He'd lift what he liked, and ditch the rest. The new approach is basically identical, except for the fact that they're tellign stories in an area where people already wrote (Lucas made a point of not having people refer to past events pre-ANH, as I recall, except for the ancient history of the universe, like the KOTOR era). So, there's more likelihood that material will be overwritten now, but only because they're actually writing material for an era that may require overwriting.
On the plus side, for those who love the EU, it looks like the people tasked with writing Star Wars' future are at least passingly familiar with and indeed fans of much of the EU. So, they'll likely want to preserve SOME of it. From my perspective, I'd expect plenty of concepts to survive, like a LOT of the details and data and technical specs on vehicles and weapons that was background info for the RPG. I'd also expect plenty of alien racial characteristics and background info will survive. Gotals will still be Gotals, Ithorians will still speak from two mouths and be naturally drawn to environmentalism, etc. But a LOT of the post-ROTJ events will be ditched. The Empire won't have tried to use "World Eaters" on Mon Calamari the way they were depicted in Dark Empire (although the E-wing may survive). The Vong? Gone. Which means Chewie's probably alive! Yay! The Solo twins (and Anakin Solo) are probably not going to exist, or if they do, won't have the history that's been depicted.
I really think that story-wise, they'll dump just about everything post-ROTJ rather than try to fit it in, or will at least lift stuff from it and flagrantly ignore the rest. That's probably a good idea, because maintaining that stuff would be at least counterproductive, if not impossible, while writing new material. To the extent that they end up contradicted...well, you can always go read your Legacy banner books.
Anyway, I think this is all good news, on the whole. They won't throw out everything, but they aren't letting the EU paint them into a corner. :thumbsup
--EDIT--
One other point to make. The key difference between the old era and the new era is that, in the new era....there is no EU. By that, I mean that anything newly developed IS canon. Comics, games, novels, TV shows, films, etc. It's ALL going to be canon now, or at least that's the idea. The old "Pre-U," if you will, is what will be treated like a buffet where you take what you want and leave the rest. But going forward, all material is intended to be canon. No more overriding what was written AFTER this change, except by doing so within the story itself (e.g. a "new discovery" or whathaveyou).
So, to clarify:
- Pre-U: basically treated as it was during the Lucas era. Mostly ignored, but with some bits and bobs lifted from it.
- New U: everything is canon.
Solo4114
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Well, technically, they CAN use characters...but they probably won't, for the reason you said.
Well, technically, they CAN use characters...but they probably won't, for the reason you said.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
That was a whole lot of equivocating, Dan, but I'll give it to you.
That was a whole lot of equivocating, Dan, but I'll give it to you.
Paul Andrew
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
I wonder where that leaves the storyline from the EU novels at? It doesn't sound like they'll push any farther past the Fate of The Jedi series, that would leave them with two ongoing versions of canon which would be at odds with the new 'one canon' directive. Is that version of Star Wars just left hanging to fizzle out and be forgotten? (not that it was spectacular, but a lot of people have a lot of reading invested in it)
It's a very unfulfilling idea, to have the storyline you've been following for two decades get cherry picked for good bits and the rest left to wither. I'd almost prefer some kind of in universe reason for a continuity alteration than to be left hanging. It sounds like the versions of Luke, Han and everyone else that exist in the current EU are just going to stop being, which bums me out.
I wonder where that leaves the storyline from the EU novels at? It doesn't sound like they'll push any farther past the Fate of The Jedi series, that would leave them with two ongoing versions of canon which would be at odds with the new 'one canon' directive. Is that version of Star Wars just left hanging to fizzle out and be forgotten? (not that it was spectacular, but a lot of people have a lot of reading invested in it)
It's a very unfulfilling idea, to have the storyline you've been following for two decades get cherry picked for good bits and the rest left to wither. I'd almost prefer some kind of in universe reason for a continuity alteration than to be left hanging. It sounds like the versions of Luke, Han and everyone else that exist in the current EU are just going to stop being, which bums me out.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
If it makes you feel any better, I would imagine that cherry picking is going to be very minor and minimal. No creative restrictions going forward.
If it makes you feel any better, I would imagine that cherry picking is going to be very minor and minimal. No creative restrictions going forward.
Solo4114
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Just from reading a quick recap of Apocalypse on Wookieepedia, it sounds more like they left a few strings for sequels, but basically wrapped up that story. I wouldn't expect they'll keep that storyline going, unless they decide to do two imprints: Legends, and whatever the new stuff is. I suppose they could do that, but would people buy it, knowing it isn't canon?
Well, look, you can't realistically expect them to remain faithful to multiple decades' worth of material ranging from the RPG to comics to video games to the novels. The EU has always been tenuously canonical. This could've happened at any time in the past. If you really thought they'd preserve the EU, I think you were fooling yourself. there's a ripple effect for a lot of changes they could've made, and it would've been nigh impossible to "fix" the problems as they run through the stories.
There's just way too much potential to override vast portions of the EU by simple changes to the story that could appear in Episode VII. Consider the following:
- If Han and Leia never married. Or if they only had one child.
- If Luke never married, or married someone other than Mara Jade, or if they had a daughter instead of a son.
- If Mon Mothma is still alive and running the Republic.
- If there never was an Admiral Daala or Thrawn.
- If Chewbacca is alive.
So much of the EU novels are built upon each other that there is simply no way to excise even small portions of it, without that having a HUGE ripple effect throughout the continuity.
As for the notion of some in-universe explanation...what would you go with that wouldn't seem cheesy as hell? It was all a dream? Time travel reset button? Force reset button? It just wouldn't work, it would seem weird and random to the bulk of people who've never heard of the EU (which encompasses a much larger group than those who DO know the EU), etc.
And it's not as if you can't have what was already published. That's the whole point (it seems) of the Legends imprint. I suppose they could continue it if there's enough interest...but I question whether there would be once the new films come out and override that stuff anyway.
The EU was always fated for scrapping as far as the plot/characters were concerned, or at least for cherry-picking. Vast portions of the EU were always going to be eliminated, and probably in exactly the way we've seen: by fiat stating that "That didn't happen in the canonical universe."
Hardcore Star Wars fans care about what is and isn't canon. Those are the people who buy the books. I expect that, from a business perspective, once you declare the books non-canonical, you HEAVILY impact the marketability of future offerings in that same storyline. I recognize that you and plenty of others would be happy to buy them, and that's awesome, but I suspect that there just aren't enough of you to make it profitable for them to hire authors and publish more novels of a non-canonical line, when thay can spend that money making canonical works that'll sell more broadly.
Just from reading a quick recap of Apocalypse on Wookieepedia, it sounds more like they left a few strings for sequels, but basically wrapped up that story. I wouldn't expect they'll keep that storyline going, unless they decide to do two imprints: Legends, and whatever the new stuff is. I suppose they could do that, but would people buy it, knowing it isn't canon?
Well, look, you can't realistically expect them to remain faithful to multiple decades' worth of material ranging from the RPG to comics to video games to the novels. The EU has always been tenuously canonical. This could've happened at any time in the past. If you really thought they'd preserve the EU, I think you were fooling yourself. there's a ripple effect for a lot of changes they could've made, and it would've been nigh impossible to "fix" the problems as they run through the stories.
There's just way too much potential to override vast portions of the EU by simple changes to the story that could appear in Episode VII. Consider the following:
- If Han and Leia never married. Or if they only had one child.
- If Luke never married, or married someone other than Mara Jade, or if they had a daughter instead of a son.
- If Mon Mothma is still alive and running the Republic.
- If there never was an Admiral Daala or Thrawn.
- If Chewbacca is alive.
So much of the EU novels are built upon each other that there is simply no way to excise even small portions of it, without that having a HUGE ripple effect throughout the continuity.
As for the notion of some in-universe explanation...what would you go with that wouldn't seem cheesy as hell? It was all a dream? Time travel reset button? Force reset button? It just wouldn't work, it would seem weird and random to the bulk of people who've never heard of the EU (which encompasses a much larger group than those who DO know the EU), etc.
And it's not as if you can't have what was already published. That's the whole point (it seems) of the Legends imprint. I suppose they could continue it if there's enough interest...but I question whether there would be once the new films come out and override that stuff anyway.
The EU was always fated for scrapping as far as the plot/characters were concerned, or at least for cherry-picking. Vast portions of the EU were always going to be eliminated, and probably in exactly the way we've seen: by fiat stating that "That didn't happen in the canonical universe."
Hardcore Star Wars fans care about what is and isn't canon. Those are the people who buy the books. I expect that, from a business perspective, once you declare the books non-canonical, you HEAVILY impact the marketability of future offerings in that same storyline. I recognize that you and plenty of others would be happy to buy them, and that's awesome, but I suspect that there just aren't enough of you to make it profitable for them to hire authors and publish more novels of a non-canonical line, when thay can spend that money making canonical works that'll sell more broadly.
Paul Andrew
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
I totally agree with all of your points and never expected them to keep all (or much really) EU stuff intact. My expectations aren't out of line, I expected basically what they're doing, but that doesn't mean it sits well with me.
And as far as an in universe explanation goes, it would never have to happen on screen. In my brain it would take place in a novel that would lead into whatever they're deciding is the canon going forward. That way people who never read the books or played the games have to worry about it, but it would provide a bit of closure for people who have trucked along through the EU this whole time. Having the last twenty years of novels labeled "Legends" and relegated to basically "might have been" status doesn't make those stories less fun but it does reduce their relevancy to practically nil.
I totally agree with all of your points and never expected them to keep all (or much really) EU stuff intact. My expectations aren't out of line, I expected basically what they're doing, but that doesn't mean it sits well with me.
And as far as an in universe explanation goes, it would never have to happen on screen. In my brain it would take place in a novel that would lead into whatever they're deciding is the canon going forward. That way people who never read the books or played the games have to worry about it, but it would provide a bit of closure for people who have trucked along through the EU this whole time. Having the last twenty years of novels labeled "Legends" and relegated to basically "might have been" status doesn't make those stories less fun but it does reduce their relevancy to practically nil.
Riceball
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
At the end of the day the only people that are going to be affected by the EU (or at least parts of the EU) being declared non-canon will be the 501st and the Rebel Legion since it seems to me that they have the most stake in what is and what is not canon. I foresee fun times ahead for those two groups as they try to decide what to do about previously canon costumes becoming non-canon and a whole lot of people suddenly crying out in pain as the previously canon costumes that they've been painstakingly working to submit for membership is all of a sudden no longer valid for submission for membership.
At the end of the day the only people that are going to be affected by the EU (or at least parts of the EU) being declared non-canon will be the 501st and the Rebel Legion since it seems to me that they have the most stake in what is and what is not canon. I foresee fun times ahead for those two groups as they try to decide what to do about previously canon costumes becoming non-canon and a whole lot of people suddenly crying out in pain as the previously canon costumes that they've been painstakingly working to submit for membership is all of a sudden no longer valid for submission for membership.
Paul Andrew
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Anyone invested in it will be affected, though people who costume it may be more so.
Anyone invested in it will be affected, though people who costume it may be more so.
ghostryder
Legendary Member
seelsa73
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
The 501st is Canon isn't it? Weren't the troopers accompanying Anakin into the Jedi temple in ROTS declared the 501st by GL? I don't know much about their organizations costume standards but I'd think they'd be safe.
Is it bad that this excites me more than anything we've heard since the announcement of new movies?
The 501st is Canon isn't it? Weren't the troopers accompanying Anakin into the Jedi temple in ROTS declared the 501st by GL? I don't know much about their organizations costume standards but I'd think they'd be safe.
Is it bad that this excites me more than anything we've heard since the announcement of new movies?
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Great dedication. However, what the devil is Zaalbar and HK-47 doing in the final duel with Darth Malek?
Great dedication. However, what the devil is Zaalbar and HK-47 doing in the final duel with Darth Malek?
Solo4114
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
I hear you. Personally, I always figured the best sequel that would (A) preserve the EU, and (B) leave room for new stories would be one set, oh, 2-3 generations after the Skywalker family saga. You could reference the universe's backstory from the EU and the films, but you would be far enough ahead of it that you could make up other stuff and not feel hemmed in by the EU. Call it Star Wars: The Next Generation, if you want (or, you know, don't, and avoid a messy lawsuit!).
The marketing guys wouldn't go for that, though, because they want to provide more continuity than just the universe itself being the Star Wars universe. But to me, that's really the only elegant way to both preserve the EU and tell new stories.
I hear you. Personally, I always figured the best sequel that would (A) preserve the EU, and (B) leave room for new stories would be one set, oh, 2-3 generations after the Skywalker family saga. You could reference the universe's backstory from the EU and the films, but you would be far enough ahead of it that you could make up other stuff and not feel hemmed in by the EU. Call it Star Wars: The Next Generation, if you want (or, you know, don't, and avoid a messy lawsuit!).
The marketing guys wouldn't go for that, though, because they want to provide more continuity than just the universe itself being the Star Wars universe. But to me, that's really the only elegant way to both preserve the EU and tell new stories.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
And it looks like a lot of new EU is in our immediate future, which looks pretty bright to me in regards to SW books.
Upcoming Star Wars Books Announced! Star Wars: A New Dawn by John Jackson Miller coming Sept 2...STAR WARS: TARKIN
by James Luceno - 11/4/14...STAR WARS: HEIR TO THE JEDI
by Kevin Hearne - January 2015...STAR WARS: LORDS OF THE SITH by Paul Kemp - March 2015
And it looks like a lot of new EU is in our immediate future, which looks pretty bright to me in regards to SW books.
Upcoming Star Wars Books Announced! Star Wars: A New Dawn by John Jackson Miller coming Sept 2...STAR WARS: TARKIN
by James Luceno - 11/4/14...STAR WARS: HEIR TO THE JEDI
by Kevin Hearne - January 2015...STAR WARS: LORDS OF THE SITH by Paul Kemp - March 2015
Riceball
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
They are, it's just that in order to apply for membership you have to have a canon costume so what may have been a canon costume may no longer be canon with the effective wiping away of the EU. However, I do believe that EU based costumes were not considered acceptable for membership application so the EU going away may not affect the 501st & by extension the RL that badly; it will be mostly a matter of (re)considering how acceptable EU or more specifically legacy EU costumes will be since a lot of it will no longer be considered canon and from what I understand both the 501st and the RL are real sticklers for canon.
They are, it's just that in order to apply for membership you have to have a canon costume so what may have been a canon costume may no longer be canon with the effective wiping away of the EU. However, I do believe that EU based costumes were not considered acceptable for membership application so the EU going away may not affect the 501st & by extension the RL that badly; it will be mostly a matter of (re)considering how acceptable EU or more specifically legacy EU costumes will be since a lot of it will no longer be considered canon and from what I understand both the 501st and the RL are real sticklers for canon.
Riceball
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Not really since the old EU books are going nowhere for now and if fans of a particular book are really concerned they will buy a copy, if they don't already own one, in case they eventually do away with the Legends line.
As far as costumers are concerned, only the 501st and the Rebel Legion are really affected since applicants for membership have to have a canon costume for evaluation. Any Star Wars costumer not affiliated with either of those organizations won't be affected since there's no reason why they can't do any Star Wars costume they want regardless of its canon or not since there's no one to tell them that a given costume is unacceptable because it's not canon.
Not really since the old EU books are going nowhere for now and if fans of a particular book are really concerned they will buy a copy, if they don't already own one, in case they eventually do away with the Legends line.
As far as costumers are concerned, only the 501st and the Rebel Legion are really affected since applicants for membership have to have a canon costume for evaluation. Any Star Wars costumer not affiliated with either of those organizations won't be affected since there's no reason why they can't do any Star Wars costume they want regardless of its canon or not since there's no one to tell them that a given costume is unacceptable because it's not canon.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
So does this mean there are 2 Eu's? One canon and one not canon, does it make sense to have an existing EU as none canon even if its canon to itself, and will the new EU be EU at all even if its direct canon, maybe a 3rd EU that ties the EU's together will be the answer then at least the hole world will have a change at liking one of hem?
What do EU think?
So does this mean there are 2 Eu's? One canon and one not canon, does it make sense to have an existing EU as none canon even if its canon to itself, and will the new EU be EU at all even if its direct canon, maybe a 3rd EU that ties the EU's together will be the answer then at least the hole world will have a change at liking one of hem?
What do EU think?
ghostryder
Legendary Member
Paul Andrew
Master Member
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