Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)

[CalMusquez]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Ok, so maybe Palp doesnt come back, that was just me spitballing really. But there does need to be something that ties the villains of this new trilogy in with the villains of the old trilogy. I said Palpatine because he's an obvious choice, but if that isn't what the fans want, then you're right that it doesn't make sense to do. Whoever it is, they need to be more powerful than Vader, and yes, it needs to be personal. Part of what made Vader so cool in the first place was that when he fought Obi Wan, when he fought Luke, it was personal. Obi Wan was his master, Luke was his son. In many ways him fighting them was him fighting his ties to humanity. The new villain needs to be the same. There needs to be some sort of tie to the protagonist, maybe not family-wise, but relationship wise. I think it's unlikely that after all he's done Luke would turn to the dark side and I don't think fans would like Han becoming a bad guy, as likely as that would be. But you get what I'm saying. They need to have emotional ties to the hero. Jumping back to Palpatine. Personally I think Palpatine coming back would be good for the story. I dont particularly like Palpatine, but it would be good for the story to have the mastermind behind all the villains continue through the whole series, but that's just me.

 

[GiovanniDekkers]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Ok, so maybe Palp doesnt come back, that was just me spitballing really. But there does need to be something that ties the villains of this new trilogy in with the villains of the old trilogy. I said Palpatine because he's an obvious choice, but if that isn't what the fans want, then you're right that it doesn't make sense to do. Whoever it is, they need to be more powerful than Vader, and yes, it needs to be personal. Part of what made Vader so cool in the first place was that when he fought Obi Wan, when he fought Luke, it was personal. Obi Wan was his master, Luke was his son. In many ways him fighting them was him fighting his ties to humanity. The new villain needs to be the same. There needs to be some sort of tie to the protagonist, maybe not family-wise, but relationship wise. I think it's unlikely that after all he's done Luke would turn to the dark side and I don't think fans would like Han becoming a bad guy, as likely as that would be. But you get what I'm saying. They need to have emotional ties to the hero. Jumping back to Palpatine. Personally I think Palpatine coming back would be good for the story. I dont particularly like Palpatine, but it would be good for the story to have the mastermind behind all the villains continue through the whole series, but that's just me.

I kind of aggree with you on this, I'd rather see Palpatine back (asking yourself was it a clone that died in RotJ or did the Clone survive ? ) instead of Vader, Vader being brought back by means of Midichlorians...ahhhhhh, no way, that idea sickens me.

I would love to see focus on Bounty Hunters and A new Crimelord as the main Villain, to get that freshness Star Wars really needs, It's obvious that Star Wars wouldn't be here without the OT, but to keep it Fresh the focus needs to be on something else this time, not on the Force mainly.

Sluis, combine what you just said with what Cal just said and we're at the heart of the climax of Star Wars: it's about retaining humanity, it's about the triumph of humanity over machine, it's about trusting ourselves instead of leaving the thinking to machines.
Now, regarding bringing Palpatine back? Eeeeeewwwwwwww....what, and "this time it's personal"? Nay...NAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY....nix non no. I wouldn't balk at a protegee of Sidious though. Vader had designs on training Luke as his apprentice to overthrow Sidious, and I have no problem with the idea that Sidious took at least one apprentice Vader didn't know about. Palps took used what was at hand after Mustafar, but Vader certainly wasn't what Sidious had been planning and hoping for a decade. The whole underlying current of the Sith is that they don't trust each other, and kept trying to secretly off each other - an unknown apprentice would fit.

I would love for Palpatine to have had a secret apprentice , like one of his royal guards for instance, why wouldn't he have taken precautions.....ofcourse because of his arrogance, but why wouldn't he have hidden a double somewhere, with all the clones being made, there must have been some arrogance there aswell??

 

[JoeG]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

The PT also made it seem that lightsaber usage was the top skill a Jedi or Sith could accomplish, making the Force secondary and basically insignificant.

Nope. In AOTC, when Yoda and Dooku came to an impasse during their lightsaber duel, they then escalated it to ability in the Force. That would demonstrate that using the Force requires more skill than lightsaber combat.

 

[seelsa73]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Ok, so maybe Palp doesnt come back, that was just me spitballing really. But there does need to be something that ties the villains of this new trilogy in with the villains of the old trilogy. I said Palpatine because he's an obvious choice, but if that isn't what the fans want, then you're right that it doesn't make sense to do. Whoever it is, they need to be more powerful than Vader, and yes, it needs to be personal. Part of what made Vader so cool in the first place was that when he fought Obi Wan, when he fought Luke, it was personal. Obi Wan was his master, Luke was his son. In many ways him fighting them was him fighting his ties to humanity. The new villain needs to be the same. There needs to be some sort of tie to the protagonist, maybe not family-wise, but relationship wise. I think it's unlikely that after all he's done Luke would turn to the dark side and I don't think fans would like Han becoming a bad guy, as likely as that would be. But you get what I'm saying. They need to have emotional ties to the hero. Jumping back to Palpatine. Personally I think Palpatine coming back would be good for the story. I dont particularly like Palpatine, but it would be good for the story to have the mastermind behind all the villains continue through the whole series, but that's just me.

I like where your head's at, but Palpatine is the wrong way to go. In fact the new villain should not be a Sith at all, because that would negate the chosen one prophesy that was fulfilled in ROTJ when Vader killed the Emperor and turned back to the good side. I would go with one of Luke's students going Dark Jedi this time around if we are going that route.

 

[rodneyfaile]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

In order for episode 7 to be good. Luke has to die. He has to become the mentor figure for whoever the new hero is, the same way obi wan was the mentor for luke and Qui Gon a mentor for Obi Wan (yes PM reference here because Qui Gon was the only good part of that movie). Mentors have to leave their heroes behind and I think that Luke dying would be the perfect thing to connect this new trilogy to the old, give the new hero reason to go on an adventure, and plunge the now peaceful galaxy into a new dark age.

The villain also has to be losing their humanity. The great thing about Star Wars villains is that each of the good ones (Maul, Vader, and Palpatine) has some aspect of not quite human. I think that retaining humanity is part of what Star Wars is about. I think bringing Palpatine back in some way (be it like he was in the EU or not). He needs to be the villain that spans the entire series. The one pulling all the strings. Now instead of wanting to destroy the Jedi to take over the galaxy, it's more personal. He wants revenge on Luke, so he comes back from the dead in some form with a vengence, looking to destroy everything Luke has fought for and built up and it's up to our new hero to protect the Jedi Order from falling as it had before.

This is exactly what I am afraid of. If I wanted this story, I would just watch the original trilogy.
How about something NEW?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Nope. In AOTC, when Yoda and Dooku came to an impasse during their lightsaber duel, they then escalated it to ability in the Force. That would demonstrate that using the Force requires more skill than lightsaber combat.

Except, they started out using the force and came to a stalemate with Dooku saying something ridiculous about them having to fight with sabers, as the force apparently didn't work well for him. He just went back to using the force to escape because he couldn't even compete with the lightsaber, but instead of targeting his opponent, he targeted the noddy unconscious duo of retards he took out quite convincingly previously.

So again... the force has become secondary to the lightsaber.

 

[cboath]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I like where your head's at, but Palpatine is the wrong way to go. In fact the new villain should not be a Sith at all, because that would negate the chosen one prophesy that was fulfilled in ROTJ when Vader killed the Emperor and turned back to the good side. I would go with one of Luke's students going Dark Jedi this time around if we are going that route.

The prophecy was that he'd bring balance to the force.

I don't know about anyone else, but to me balance isn't 1.5 good jedi (Luke/Leia) and 0 bad jedi/sith. It's a slight imbalance.

Luke starts training new jedi, and the good side starts to outweigh the good substantially thus, another imbalance.

We've seen what happens with the dark side is too strong, what happens when the light side is too strong?

 

[jme3]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Leave Darth Vader out of it, enough with that ...that story has been told.....

A new Hope style movie would have my vote aswell, it's about a fresh new start and who knows a fresh new villain, maybe this time Boba Fett got rescued by a certain crime lord, why not go the Bounty Hunter way with Star Wars, The skywalkers have had their story, The sith and Jedi have had their story, what else is there really left to tell otherwise?

The series idea wasn't such a bad idea, the period between Epsidode 3 and 4, why not go for that if they sooo desperately want to stick with Vader and Palps.

So far this is "Jean Luc Picard facepalm" kind of stuff to me.

^I agree completely. As much as Vader and the Emperor represented the OT to me, I think they're finished as characters and storylines in Ep.VII and beyond. Even if some OT characters do return with cameos or even major parts to give the sequels some connection to the OT, it really needs to go off in another direction. Vader and the Emperor are dead and the Empire itself has been defeated. There will have to be some other intrigue to it.

But the great part about all of it is, for those who truly want the original characters in all their glory like I do, the time frame between Episodes III and IV are fertile ground for all sorts of drama to unfold. This would be Vader and the Emperor coming into full power and the Empire in all its "glory". And with Ian McDiarmid still alive, we would have another opportunity to see the Emperor as he looked in the OT days instead of the freshly-minted Emperor we saw in the prequels. The sheer greatness of Ian's acting skills did wonders to make up for the less-than-perfect rendition of his prosthetics.

I hope it's not lost on those at Disney in whose hands these opportunities rest. As long as we OT fans have complained about Star Wars no longer feeling like Star Wars, the message to them should be loud and clear to get it right...

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

The prophecy was that he'd bring balance to the force.

I don't know about anyone else, but to me balance isn't 1.5 good jedi (Luke/Leia) and 0 bad jedi/sith. It's a slight imbalance.

Luke starts training new jedi, and the good side starts to outweigh the good substantially thus, another imbalance.

We've seen what happens with the dark side is too strong, what happens when the light side is too strong?

The balance was skewed when the Force began being misused for dark side purposes. With the end of the Sith, the Force came back into balance.

 

[NAZGÛL]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

When is that stated in the films?

 

[yodakiller1138]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

In order for episode 7 to be good. Luke has to die. He has to become the mentor figure for whoever the new hero is, the same way obi wan was the mentor for luke and Qui Gon a mentor for Obi Wan (yes PM reference here because Qui Gon was the only good part of that movie). Mentors have to leave their heroes behind and I think that Luke dying would be the perfect thing to connect this new trilogy to the old, give the new hero reason to go on an adventure, and plunge the now peaceful galaxy into a new dark age.

Read Joseph Campbell's HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES.

Gives a good idea of where the series could go. And the Hero usually dies .

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

When is that stated in the films?

Never. But Lucas says it numerous times in the commentaries and behind the scenes stuff. Sure, he changes his mind often, but he still said it. That's still a step up from anything stated in the EU, as it was said by the creator.

 

[NAZGÛL]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

That makes sence I guess. But why dont you like Sith using light sabers then? Thats written by Lucas.

 

[Timmythekid]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Nope. In AOTC, when Yoda and Dooku came to an impasse during their lightsaber duel, they then escalated it to ability in the Force. That would demonstrate that using the Force requires more skill than lightsaber combat.

Did we see the same AotC?

"This weapon IS YOUR LIFE!"

"It is obvious that this contest cannot be settled with our knowledge of the Force, but by our skill with a lightsaber."

The exact OPPOSITE happened - they dicked around with force powers for a few minutes until Dooku says "okay, now it's really on!" and they duel with sabers. The Force only comes back into it when Dooku uses a Force pull as a last ditch distraction. Now, if you are talking about Yoda and Sidious, that might be a different story EXCEPT that Yoda was fine fending off Sidious's Force attacks until he dropped his sabre. Once the saber was gone, he was hosed.

Thanks, incidentally to whichever one of you brought the way in which the PT presents the preminence of lightsabers over the Force. I was actually starting to feel some love for the PT there and you've gone and given me another reason to be mad at it. :angry


----DOH! Missed TMGs post saying the same thing----

 

[Timmythekid]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

The balance was skewed when the Force began being misused for dark side purposes. With the end of the Sith, the Force came back into balance.

Balance is balance, not the absence of one or the other. Particularly with the eastern influences on the evolution of the concept of the Force, I have to look at this as Yin-Yang - for any light there must be equal dark. What happens when there's no dark? There's no cautionary tale those in the 'light' can use to govern their actions - they start to wonder why they can't just seize power and make things right, the way they want them to be. Some in the 'light' will fall to the dark. Anakin was kind of there too - the council clearly didn't take the idea of the Sith re-emerging seriously between TPM and AoTC. Anakin therefore has no solid example to show him "THIS IS WHY WHAT YOU"RE SAYING IS INSANE" in the movie.

 

[CalMusquez]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't mean that the Sith need to be the villains, simply that there needs to be some sort of evil entity that spans the entire series to link them together a bit more. I was using Palpatine as an example because he's (if not the best choice) the obvious choice, and I couldn't think of anyone else beside Vader, who as awesome as he is, i think the fans would be really pissed off if he was ressurected. His story is told, and I think the fans would be much happier with Palpatine being that series-spanning villain than with Vader. But honestly any sort of evil entity would be fine with me, providing they add some connection with the other films, I'm not dead set on Palpatine. And I don't think the sith should be the villains as a whole. There needs to be some sort of evil army, in the OT it was the Empire, then it was the droid army, this is Star WARS. There needs to be an evil army that battles the Jedi under the control of the main villain. Maybe like an army of bounty hunters? Just spitballin here. Oh and whoever said that the Sith returning would negate the prophecy fulfilled in ROTJ, the Sith do return in the EU, in the Legacy comics. All in all, the story needs to be familiar enough that the fans accept it as Star Wars, but different enough that it isn't just a rehash of the other films.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

That makes sence I guess. But why dont you like Sith using light sabers then? Thats written by Lucas.

Yeah, but that's when he went into fart joke mode with the prequels.

The whole deal with the Emperor scuffing at lightsabers and their usage made him feel super powerful. He didn't need weapons of any kind other than what the Force provided.

Luke goes on a weapon progression throughout the movies. Mostly blaster usage in ANH, then blaster and saber in ESB, then basically only saber (and that one quick pulling a blaster into his hand when confronting Jabba in the beginning, sure) in RotJ... I just assumed that the next and final progression would be no physical weapon.

The whole notion that there's being put so much importance on the saber in the PT just felt so wrong. They are putting more faith in a constructed laser saber than in the Force. The lightsaber should have nothing to offer when it comes to the Force, yet... it was made more powerful than the force, as it could suddenly absorb force lightning. Yeah right. It completely diffused the skill and the danger of it, as Luke could simply just have kept his saber and prevented himself from being zapped.

Balance is balance, not the absence of one or the other. Particularly with the eastern influences on the evolution of the concept of the Force, I have to look at this as Yin-Yang - for any light there must be equal dark. What happens when there's no dark? There's no cautionary tale those in the 'light' can use to govern their actions - they start to wonder why they can't just seize power and make things right, the way they want them to be. Some in the 'light' will fall to the dark. Anakin was kind of there too - the council clearly didn't take the idea of the Sith re-emerging seriously between TPM and AoTC. Anakin therefore has no solid example to show him "THIS IS WHY WHAT YOU"RE SAYING IS INSANE" in the movie.

Oh, I agree with you. But also in the sense of how the Jedi use the Force. They are very narrow and singular in how they use it in the PT, whereas Luke uses every single aspect to get what he needs - he force chokes the guards, manipulates the greedy sycophantic aid, even pulls a gun into his hand to kill an unarmed gangster. He isn't as straight and narrow as the Republic Jedi who barely get off their asses while everything burns around them.

But the fact of the matter is that Lucas has said the unbalance was caused by the emergence of the Sith and balance was restored when the Sith were killed off. So, it doesn't matter what I think. But of course, since it wasn't fully explained in the movies... it's still open to interpretation... and I still think the Jedi skewed things by not accepting and using the whole Force... and only sticking to what they perceived was the light side.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Balance is balance, not the absence of one or the other. Particularly with the eastern influences on the evolution of the concept of the Force, I have to look at this as Yin-Yang - for any light there must be equal dark.

That's wrong though according to Lucas himself. You have to look at it in that it's a Jedi prophecy. In their thinking balance is an absence of the Dark Side, not equality. In addition, the Dark Side apparently clouds the Force as Yoda and Mace Windu say in the movies, which kind of implies it's out of the ordinary.

 

[Krull]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Been busy the last few weeks,but I'm back and this news has been buzzing in my ear.

Lemme say this:

I've said it before but to think Luke is the LAST Jedi is stupid,have a few of the old guard still alive like Yoda was and have it set about thirty to thirty five years later.

Have Luke and the few Jedi rebuild the temple,help the new government et cetera.

Face it the Jedi are a boring lot and they've made more screw ups then not so you need something new-I've always said since the PT that having a bunch of "gray" Jedi i.e. a faction that broke off thousands of years ago and took off for parts unknown pop up and offer a hand but there be a lot of tension between them and the Jedi since they use a combination of the force AND the dark side to fight.

As for a bad guy? how about these Gray Jedi show up and offer help but also warn Luke "you've fought the Sith,but has it ever crossed your mind what made THEM? we're also here to warn you all this has been part of their plan and they are coming"

Just my two cents.

 

[cboath]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Short of KOTOR, where was it ever stated the sith were a race? I always took sith to mean a club. How do you go from a race or planet to 'there can only be 2'? Even at that, the sith of KOTOR were just people. They weren't force users either way.

If I was Luke, I'd poke around the old jedi temple if anything was left. However, i seriously doubt there would be. The emperor called that city home for what? 30 years? I'm sure he wiped the place out and incinerated what was left so no trace was left. If I wanted to start a new temple, i'd pick a new spot, somewhere out of the way. Definitely NOT coruscant.

I also think there's a jedi or two left. But, look at it this way, to be useful in the ways, they'd have to have been 20-30 or older by ROTS, 20 years passed to ANH, 5ish more to ROTJ, and then 30 more to E7. So, 55 years between 3 and 7 which would make a surviving Jedi 75-85 or more. They could be alive at that age, and an alien race could live who knows how long (yoda 900)...still a long time to hold out as hidden. Plus, you know, Luke defeated the emperor 30 years ago, why wait that extra 30 years to reveal yourself to him? Seems like something that would have happened inside the first 5 years - 10 at the latest.