Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Where in any of the films does it state that Yoda wanted to hide on Dagobah so he could wait to train the "anointed" one? You put a lot of emphasis that Yoda knows all about how the prophecy works to the point that he voluntarily does nothing to help the galaxy fight the Sith's rule of the galaxy. If that's what was going on, the films should have at least told us about it. Heck, when Luke comes to Dagobah, he has to be convinced by Ghost Obi-Wan that he is ready and upon leaving says that "there is another" when in comes to their only hope. Given what the films tell us, Yoda just wanted to go into exile because he's a sore loser.

Also, unwanted attention? The rebels are out numbered and out gunned but having an experienced Jedi commander is a no-no because it would invite unwanted attention? Rice, the Empire is so obsessed with ending the Rebel Alliance that they're willing to destroy non-rebel planets just because they can. If you're worried about them sensing other Jeid, well, Even Vader needed probe droids to hunt for Skywalker since his ability to sense others is limited to extremely close proximity. Cripes. He couldn't even sense Obi-Wan or Luke's presence on Tattoine when he was pursuing Leia.

Wow, every point you make here is completely wrong. Have you even seen these movies? At the end of the PT Yoda goes into exile to hide himself from Palpatine. It's symbolic that the Sith have risen to power and he is powerless to stop it as evidenced by his defeat in the Senate chamber. He arrives on Dagobah years before the formation of the Rebel Alliance. There is no way he could know they even exist and it likely would not have changed his mind regarding his exile of he did. He wasn't capable of destroying Palpatine but he harbored A New Hope that perhaps Luke or Leia could. I think we will learn a lot about why he went to Dagobah in the upcoming CW Season 6 episodes. He would have been a liability to the Rebellion had he known about it and risking exposing possibly the existence of Luke and Leia.

 

[NeoRutty]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I love the addition of Driver... When I first caught him on "Girls" he was very off-putting, and I wanted his character off the show as soon as possible. After the first season, he was one of my favorite characters.

There's a very strange thing with him... his voice and demeanor. You can by him as a complete psychopath.... but one that can win you over with his weird charm/sincerity.

 

[JD]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Sorry, but I'd rather read something that's not motivated by apathy.

No apathy on my part.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Wow, every point you make here is completely wrong. Have you even seen these movies? At the end of the PT Yoda goes into exile to hide himself from Palpatine. It's symbolic that the Sith have risen to power and he is powerless to stop it as evidenced by his defeat in the Senate chamber. He arrives on Dagobah years before the formation of the Rebel Alliance. There is no way he could know they even exist and it likely would not have changed his mind regarding his exile of he did. He wasn't capable of destroying Palpatine but he harbored A New Hope that perhaps Luke or Leia could. I think we will learn a lot about why he went to Dagobah in the upcoming CW Season 6 episodes. He would have been a liability to the Rebellion had he known about it and risking exposing possibly the existence of Luke and Leia.

Right. Yoda could still use the Force so it's possible he was still receiving visions, depending on what Lucas' "Dark Side clouding the Force" did, and could have learned about the Rebellion then. Still there's nothing Yoda or Obi Wan could have done. Obi Wan's mission was to guard, and later train Luke, period. Yoda may have been part of the training plan, though we don't know if that was the plan all along. Neither Yoda nor Obi Wan could have done anything except get themselves killed because they couldn't defeat Sidious. Lucas said at some point that in ANH Obi Wan could have easily defeated Vader, but that wasn't his plan. I think they figured that since Luke and Leia were Anakin's kids that they would also be extremely powerful. They would have more of a chance if they were properly trained to kill Sidious.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Wow, every point you make here is completely wrong. Have you even seen these movies? At the end of the PT Yoda goes into exile to hide himself from Palpatine.

cow·ard
- a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things.

And by your comment, that fits Yoda pretty well. He lacks the courage to continue to oppose a dangerous foe like Palpatine. And I don't think your "he harbored A New Hope that perhaps Luke or Leia could" holds up any better since there is no evidence of that in the film. All Yoda ever says is that he and Obi-Wan are going to disappear and maybe re-appear if the time is right. The only thing Yoda does for Luke and Leia is offer suggestions on where to send them. That's it.

I think we will learn a lot about why he went to Dagobah in the upcoming CW Season 6 episodes.

You don't get credit for something if you don't put it in your work. No one should have to learn something from a separate medium in order to understand a character's motivation in a completely different story, especially when it's been almost 10 years after the fact. If it's really important to know, it should have been in the movie where it was the most relevant. And if it's not important, why bother with what the Clone Wars has to say?

 

[Brent M]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Don't know him but he has an interesting look.

Yeah, he looks just like the guy that took the Ferrari on a joyride in Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

Seriously, though, he strikes me as a hipster d-bag and I think it's because I'm genetically predisposed to hate anyone involved with the show Girls. I hope they either put him in heavy Ian McDiarmid level makeup or give him a helmet.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

cow·ard
- a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things.

And by your comment, that fits Yoda pretty well. He lacks the courage to continue to oppose a dangerous foe like Palpatine. And I don't think your "he harbored A New Hope that perhaps Luke or Leia could" holds up any better since there is no evidence of that in the film. All Yoda ever says is that he and Obi-Wan are going to disappear and maybe re-appear if the time is right. The only thing Yoda does for Luke and Leia is offer suggestions on where to send them. That's it.


You don't get credit for something if you don't put it in your work. No one should have to learn something from a separate medium in order to understand a character's motivation in a completely different story, especially when it's been almost 10 years after the fact. If it's really important to know, it should have been in the movie where it was the most relevant. And if it's not important, why bother with what the Clone Wars has to say?

You re completely missing the point. The character of Yoda is very different in the OT vs. the PT. I think GL should be commended for revisiting Yoda's story so many years after ROTJ and to show a beloved character to be flawed. The end of ROTS certainly showed a creature with a tremendous amount of courage and conviction but it was too little too late. He lost, he was bettered by the dark side he had mistakenly allowed to prosper. His penance is his exile, his only hope that the light side would have a resurgence that he could Shepard. That turned out to be Luke. Watching all 6 fins that is abundantly clear to everyone but you it seems. My mention of the CW is an aside to this topic, however it is considered SW canon and therefore an official part of the history of these characters but not required to understand the intent of the films….for most people anyway.

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[Zombie_61]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

The first original Star Wars movie was never something to over think about...With the Prequels, they added all this other stuff that made the overall story a complete mess with politics, midi-chlorians, prophecies and blatant fan service...

Well stated, and I believe you've hit upon the exact reason that fans of the Original Trilogy were so disappointed with the Prequel Trilogy--Lucas chose to waste a lot of time emphasizing the issues you've mentioned that are/were ultimately of little or no real importance to the main story, and in doing so he took all of the fun out of the movies. Yes, Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi soon became a phenomenon the likes of which no one really expected, but at their core they're really supposed to be not much more than Space Fantasy/Adventure/Popcorn/root-for-the-good-guys-and-boo-the-villains-from-the-edge-of-your-seat movies.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

. I think GL should be commended for revisiting Yoda's story so many years after ROTJ and to show a beloved character to be flawed.

Making Yoda flawed was certainly the right thing to do, but how they did it was just completely wrong. Of all the things that Yoda does that are flawed, him losing to Palpatine is nowhere near the top of my list. When I think of moments where Yoda made everything worse, it was his meeting with Anakin. In that scene which takes place before Anakin makes his big fall towards the Dark Side, he brings up visions of pain, suffering and death of an individual who's close to him. Yoda's words of wisdom? Rejoice. He doesn't ask who this person is, how this person relates to Anakin, how this person dies, or ask anything at all. He simply says death is a natural part of life and Anakin should rejoice in that fact, even if that person's death involves pain and suffering. How is that not the number one flaw in his character? This was a deliberate lack of perspective and understanding on Yoda's part and the film never acknowledges it as a flaw.

 

[Vivek]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

aliarikan: "Adam Driver = Han Solo from the Star Wars Holiday Special's Faithful Wookie segment"

 

[Jaitea]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

You could argue that but it's not like Yoda was exactly in the center of the galaxy and was really able to keep up on current events, I don't think that he got INN out on Dagobah. The most logical explanation for Yoda's hiding out on Dagobah was that he knew that his role was to keep low and wait for the 'anointed one' to show at which time he'll train him thus fulfilling the Prophecy. Sure, he could have gone around and did his jumping bean routine all over the galaxy and helping the Rebels but in the greater scheme of things that would have done nothing but bring undue attention to himself along with any Rebel cell that he might be working with and his duty, as it were, was to remain hidden so that he could live long enough to train "The One".

Don't forget that as soon as Yoda met Luke and started training him his cover was blown, Vader & Palpatine instantly felt the disturbance in the Force.

J

 

[seelsa73]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

The politics of the PT are the second most important part of those movies, aside from Anakin's fall to the dark side. It was used very artfully to set up the Empire. Say what you want about the other stuff, but the politics played a very prominent and important role in the overarching story of the 6 films together.

 

[GiovanniDekkers]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

The New Trilogy is going to be way better than the PT, it could go so many ways, no time-frame to deal with, I don't think JJ will make that big a mess out of it....

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

aliarikan: "Adam Driver = Han Solo from the Star Wars Holiday Special's Faithful Wookie segment"

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhbqyzICYAA3UFf.png:large

Vivek, you are so cruel. That made my morning.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

The politics of the PT are the second most important part of those movies, aside from Anakin's fall to the dark side. It was used very artfully to set up the Empire. Say what you want about the other stuff, but the politics played a very prominent and important role in the overarching story of the 6 films together.

Side note, but I'd dispute that the politics were well-handled, or that they were central to the films. I do agree that they were supposed to be central, but I think they were poorly done, probably because Lucas wasn't all that interested in them in the first place.

For example, we have no idea how the Senate works. Are there political parties? How does someone become Supreme Chancellor? When Valorum gets voted out, and Palpatine gets voted in, how's that work exactly? Why was Palpatine the guy who got nominated? He was just some minor Senator, no? So, what, just because the person who calls the no confidence vote succeeds in ousting the current SC, they get to pick the next one? Or had Palpatine actually shored up support and was clearly the next logical choice? We don't know, because the film doesn't say. For that matter, we have no idea why Valorum is so easily taken out of the equation. What ELSE had happened to make him ineffective? Or was it just the Naboo blockade?

And that brings up the issue of how the hell the Republic actually operates, if it can't stop one planet from blockading another. Is it like the U.N. or the League of Nations? (Which it's probably supposed to represent...) Is it like the UK Parliament or the US Congress? We don't know, because Lucas didn't care to elaborate.

When we skip ahead to the second film, we have no real explanation for the separatists' grievances, nor how the Senate is failing them. We have no idea why the Separatists want to separate, how many of them there are, nor exactly what they're separating from. It's pretty clear from the first film that the Senate doesn't really have the power to stop planets from DOING anything, so...why does the Separatist faction care what the Republic says? Why are they even a faction? We don't know, because Lucas didn't really care to explain it. Also, the 2nd film makes it clear that the Republic has no standing army. That's why it's such a big deal that Palpatine declares the formation of the Grand Army. So, without an army...what exactly does the Republic do again? It's not clear, because Lucas didn't care to explain. Probably because he didn't really have a clear idea himself.

For me, though, the biggest problem is in the final creation of the Empire in the last few minutes of ROTS. Palpatine says he's creating it and people go along with it because the Jedi..uh..attacked him and stuff. But by this point, we have no idea how the Empire is different from the Republic it's replacing. We just know it's GOING to be different...somehow. And it's gonna be bad. That's it. That's what we know.

I think the real problems with the political side is that it happens in these HUGE jumps, but the background for it is never really explored in any detail, BUT we're given JUST ENOUGH detail to say "Wait, what?! What the hell is going on here?!" That's because we're splitting time between telling Anakin's personal story, and the larger story of the galaxy (except, really, we're only telling Anakin's story), but getting very brief yet fairly narrowly focused views of the Republic in action (or in inaction, I suppose). I THINK Lucas was going for "Show them a little, let them imagine the rest." That worked great in the OT, but with the PT, I think he actually showed -- in a sense -- too much and not enough all at the same time.

I'd rather have seen Palpatine's rise to power be closer to something like House of Cards (either version). I'd rather have seen the gradual erosion of freedoms in the midst of the war. I'd rather that the Separatists were actually clear in WHY they were separating and WHAT they were separating to do that they couldn't do under the Republic. And I'd rather it have been made abundantly clear how we'd see Palpatine truly "cross the Rubicon" with the creation of the Empire, and how much worse it was actually going to get. I don't think Lucas did any of that particularly effectively, and it's why I find the political side to the Star Wars universe to be pretty underdeveloped and ineffective.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Curious, so many are critical of the PT fir being heavy handed and dull in regards to the political exposition and say the answer is to delve even more deeply into said offending plot point!

 

[Darth Lars]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't care much about action figures, so I saw first today that there is a new Mara Jade action figure as part of Hasbro's new "Black Series". It has been said that all characters in the "Black Series" are supposed to be canon/movie-characters. There is also an action figure of Darth Plageuis, which although not seen in any movie, was at least mentioned by name in Revenge of the Sith, but apart from those two all action figure characters were seen in movies.
This does not confirm that Mara Jade would be in Episode 7, but it does increase the probability that the character would have survived the EU purge/merge with movie-canon.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't care much about action figures, so I saw first today that there is a new Mara Jade action figure as part of Hasbro's new "Black Series". It has been said that all characters in the "Black Series" are supposed to be canon/movie-characters. There is also an action figure of Darth Plageuis, which although not seen in any movie, was at least mentioned by name in Revenge of the Sith, but apart from those two all action figure characters were seen in movies.
This does not confirm that Mara Jade would be in Episode 7, but it does increase the probability that the character would have survived the EU purge/merge with movie-canon.

I believe those were part of Hasbro's fan voting poll from last year and were selected to be part of the line but has no bearing on their canocity.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Curious, so many are critical of the PT fir being heavy handed and dull in regards to the political exposition and say the answer is to delve even more deeply into said offending plot point!

My criticism wasn't that he focused on the politics, but rather that he focused on politics the wrong way. "Politics" is a really broad subject. It can encompass things like decisions to go to war, and it can include fine-tuning of tax codes. I mean, he could've given us extensive insight into the Senate's debate over the establishment of the 39th day of the calendar cycle as "Gundark Habitat Awareness Day," too, and it would've been...pretty dull stuff.


I think that's kind of how people reacted to the TPM opening crawl, and the whole war being about a trade embargo, followed by votes of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum and such. It was more like "What the hell does this have to do with anything?" By contrast, if you showed me more detail about the politics of the system and how Palpatine manipulated corruption and greed to come to power (which we never really see), how the Senate gradually eroded its own freedoms by voting more and more power to Palpatine -- and WHY they did that, and if you showed me how the Empire eventually clamped down even further on dissent, establishing ruthless control, manipulated public opinion to turn it against the Jedi (I mean, more than just one speech) or the Wookiees or other aliens and dissidents, then you'd have a story where the politics are more relevant to the tale.

It's not just that politics are boring vs. politics are interesting. The RIGHT politics are interesting. The wrong ones are boring. Compare, for example, how George R.R. Martin has handled politics in his Song of Ice and Fire series. We see the maneuverings of the various members of the small council. We hear how the realm is bankrupt and is borrowing money from both the Lannisters, and other foreign banks. We see, early on, King Robert plotting the assassination of a rival who is currently overseas, and the discussions in council about that. All of that is centrally relevant to the story, and plays a role in moving the action along. But compare that, for example, to a long discussion of the methods by which taxes are raised, and a discussion of the economies of Dorne vs. the Riverlands. That stuff might be relevant, but it isn't exciting and it isn't centrally relevant to the tale.

I'm not saying we needed more politics, per se. I'm saying we needed more info on the right aspects of politics in the Star Wars universe, and far, far less on the other more tangential aspects.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't disagree in principal, Dan, but the films would have been LOTR and Hobbit length if he had tried to do what you suggest as well as the main story line about Anakin. It was complicated enough without diving deeper into the minutae if how the senate or Republic functions. The result may have been dissatisfying but that is an execution problem. I don't fault the PT for at least trying to tell the story about the fall if the Republic despite the fact it wasn't done as well as it could have been.