Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't disagree in principal, Dan, but the films would have been LOTR and Hobbit length if he had tried to do what you suggest as well as the main story line about Anakin. It was complicated enough without diving deeper into the minutae if how the senate or Republic functions. The result may have been dissatisfying but that is an execution problem. I don't fault the PT for at least trying to tell the story about the fall if the Republic despite the fact it wasn't done as well as it could have been.

To tell the story HE wanted to tell about Anakin? Yeah, it would've taken way too long. But my core issue with the story the prequels tell is that Lucas' choice of what is Anakin's story was the real weak point. He could've refocused the political stuff AND the Anakin stuff, but basically, that'd require a completely different story. And as the saying goes, if my grandmother had 'em, she'd be my grandfather.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

To tell the story HE wanted to tell about Anakin? Yeah, it would've taken way too long. But my core issue with the story the prequels tell is that Lucas' choice of what is Anakin's story was the real weak point. He could've refocused the political stuff AND the Anakin stuff, but basically, that'd require a completely different story. And as the saying goes, if my grandmother had 'em, she'd be my grandfather.

Abd I know from Mr. Scott as he gazed upon the Excelsior "And if my Grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon".

 

[Joosh]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't disagree in principal, Dan, but the films would have been LOTR and Hobbit length if he had tried to do what you suggest as well as the main story line about Anakin. It was complicated enough without diving deeper into the minutae if how the senate or Republic functions. The result may have been dissatisfying but that is an execution problem. I don't fault the PT for at least trying to tell the story about the fall if the Republic despite the fact it wasn't done as well as it could have been.

The way the prequels were written, yes, they would've each been three to five hour epics, but they were written very poorly and unfocused. Much of what he's saying could have been accomplished in less than a ten minute discussion using the Jedi Council

YODA: Bleak things are.
Someone else: The Senates insistence on....yada yada yada.....
Another person: So and so's rule has been ineffective
SE: Such and such is pushing for a no confidence vote.
AP: The Bantha Fodder is getting deep with all the whatever and such.
SE: Palpatine has secured a large voting block such as it is and blah...
YODA (looking concerned): Bag of ******, Palpatine is.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I think it would've required a good bit more than that, actually. But then, I'd completely scrap the PT and do it differently from the ground up. At the very least, I'd have eliminated TPM, made AOTC the first film, then had the 2nd film be pretty much the depths of the war, with ROTS as the wrap-up for the war. I'd totally change Anakin's motivations (ditch the mom-died-and-I'm-sad thing), redesign how Palpatine came to power and have it be backstory for AOTC, and spend a bit of time showing the gradual increase of political oppression, centralization -- and unaccountability -- of power, and a gradual push towards designating certain species as "hostile" to prevent an easy rebellion (e.g. the Mon Cals for their starship technology, the Wookiees for their strength). I'd have shown a crackdown on droid autonomy for droids made during and after the ROTS era (which would explain why R2 and 3PO were so unique), and would've completely eliminated the Sith connection to the separatists. Palpatine wouldn't have orchestrated the war. He would, however, have profited from the opportunities it presented.

And so on and so forth. Really, like I said, totally different story, with each change making it less and less like the PT we have.


I see what Lucas was trying to do, but (A) I don't find his story interesting in the slightest, and (B) I don't think he ever really "sold" the galactic impact of the events. It was all a very personal story about Anakin, and one that I found to be rather insipid. But all that aside, I don't think you could effectively do what I'm talking about within the framework of the films he created and keep your running times below 2.5-3 hours per film.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

The way the prequels were written, yes, they would've each been three to five hour epics, but they were written very poorly and unfocused. Much of what he's saying could have been accomplished in less than a ten minute discussion using the Jedi Council

YODA: Bleak things are.
Someone else: The Senates insistence on....yada yada yada.....
Another person: So and so's rule has been ineffective
SE: Such and such is pushing for a no confidence vote.
AP: The Bantha Fodder is getting deep with all the whatever and such.
SE: Palpatine has secured a large voting block such as it is and blah...
YODA (looking concerned): Bag of ******, Palpatine is.

Read this 5min. ago, still laughing!

 

[cboath]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I think it would've required a good bit more than that, actually. But then, I'd completely scrap the PT and do it differently from the ground up. At the very least, I'd have eliminated TPM, made AOTC the first film, then had the 2nd film be pretty much the depths of the war, with ROTS as the wrap-up for the war. I'd totally change Anakin's motivations (ditch the mom-died-and-I'm-sad thing), redesign how Palpatine came to power and have it be backstory for AOTC, and spend a bit of time showing the gradual increase of political oppression, centralization -- and unaccountability -- of power, and a gradual push towards designating certain species as "hostile" to prevent an easy rebellion (e.g. the Mon Cals for their starship technology, the Wookiees for their strength). I'd have shown a crackdown on droid autonomy for droids made during and after the ROTS era (which would explain why R2 and 3PO were so unique), and would've completely eliminated the Sith connection to the separatists. Palpatine wouldn't have orchestrated the war. He would, however, have profited from the opportunities it presented.

And so on and so forth. Really, like I said, totally different story, with each change making it less and less like the PT we have.


I see what Lucas was trying to do, but (A) I don't find his story interesting in the slightest, and (B) I don't think he ever really "sold" the galactic impact of the events. It was all a very personal story about Anakin, and one that I found to be rather insipid. But all that aside, I don't think you could effectively do what I'm talking about within the framework of the films he created and keep your running times below 2.5-3 hours per film.

You'd also have thought that part of anakins story would be a slide to the darkside. Not an abrupt change as the jedi are about to take palpatine. There was ONE daliance with the dark side in AOTC and nothing else ever close. He was a whiny brat the whole way, but not evil. I don't know that any character has ever made such an abrupt change before in any series.

 

[nwjedidave]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

‘Star Wars’: Adam Driver to Play the Villain[/h]

?Star Wars?: Adam Driver to Play the Villain (EXCLUSIVE)

Has this been mentioned yet?

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

You'd also have thought that part of anakins story would be a slide to the darkside. Not an abrupt change as the jedi are about to take palpatine. There was ONE daliance with the dark side in AOTC and nothing else ever close. He was a whiny brat the whole way, but not evil. I don't know that any character has ever made such an abrupt change before in any series.

I think that was Lucas' intention, actually. He wanted to focus on how selfish behavior and an inability to love beyond himself was what led him to the dark side. If you think about it, all of Anakin's emotional connections are about HIM and are all entirely self-oriented. It's all about what other people do for him, rather than about him giving of himself. Anakin's love is one of possession, rather than selflessness. It's the love of a young child, rather than a man. One born of dependence, rather than self-sufficiency and self-confidence.

Anakin Skywalker: You are so... beautiful.
Padmé: It's only because I'm so in love.
Anakin Skywalker: No, it's because I'm so in love with you.

Look at the dialogue there. That's ALL about Anakin and what Padme does for him. It's fundamentally self-centered, rather than focused on Padme. Thus, when Anakin loses Padme, he feels threatened, helpless, just like a child would if their loved ones withheld love from them. This, in turn, causes him to lash out.

The problem is that they then conflate this with him taking the larger view and saying "Oh, and by the way, I'm gonna kill EVERYBODY and TAKE OVER THE GALAXY!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!" That's the part that doesn't jive with Anakin's development.

If Anakin's story was simply the story of a random Jedi who fell in love and, as a result, fell to the dark side when his jealousy and fear consumed him, it would be an AWESOME story. A tale about love-gone-wrong set in the Star Wars universe.

The problem is that Lucas tried to mash that up with the tale of a Republic crumbling, and a brutal dictatorship rising in its place, and the two go together about as well as chocolate and anchovies.

‘Star Wars’: Adam Driver to Play the Villain



?Star Wars?: Adam Driver to Play the Villain (EXCLUSIVE)

Has this been mentioned yet?

Don't think so in this thread, but it came up on the Facebook page. Until the studio announces anything, my advice is ignore everything.

 

[Joosh]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

If Anakin's story was simply the story of a random Jedi who fell in love and, as a result, fell to the dark side when his jealousy and fear consumed him, it would be an AWESOME story. A tale about love-gone-wrong set in the Star Wars universe.

The problem is that Lucas tried to mash that up with the tale of a Republic crumbling, and a brutal dictatorship rising in its place, and the two go together about as well as chocolate and anchovies.

It would've been possible to tell both stories. The story of the minor Senator who gives himself to the Sith in order to seize power who realizes that in order to maintain that power he needs a right hand man and takes advantage of the young and overly naive Jedi who is hopelessly in love with a woman that he can never have because of the 'gift' he was born with.

Palpatine is the reason the Republic is crumbling. Anakin turns to the dark side not only because of his love for Padme, but also because Palpatine convinces him that the dark side will give him all he wants- including being with Padme. Where the Jedi saw evil in the Dark Side, Anakin saw hope. Anakin and Palpatine are inexorably connected, just as Padme and Anakin are connected.

The fall of the republic and the rise of Vader are one and the same. The Jedi have to rot from within, that is the final barrier to Palpatine become the emperor. Anakin is the key to that.

The central problem with the Prequels is not the overall story it is with the writing. The overall arc when taken as a gross concept is good. The failure is in the details.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

It would've been possible to tell both stories. The story of the minor Senator who gives himself to the Sith in order to seize power who realizes that in order to maintain that power he needs a right hand man and takes advantage of the young and overly naive Jedi who is hopelessly in love with a woman that he can never have because of the 'gift' he was born with.

Palpatine is the reason the Republic is crumbling. Anakin turns to the dark side not only because of his love for Padme, but also because Palpatine convinces him that the dark side will give him all he wants- including being with Padme. Where the Jedi saw evil in the Dark Side, Anakin saw hope. Anakin and Palpatine are inexorably connected, just as Padme and Anakin are connected.

The fall of the republic and the rise of Vader are one and the same. The Jedi have to rot from within, that is the final barrier to Palpatine become the emperor. Anakin is the key to that.

The central problem with the Prequels is not the overall story it is with the writing. The overall arc when taken as a gross concept is good. The failure is in the details.

Eh, I think it's possible, but it doesn't really jive with Anakin's later decision to blow up the galaxy. You could turn a Jedi to the dark side using love-as-dependency. But at least in the OT, that's not what apparently drives Vader. In the OT, Vader seems to want to take control so that he can force peace upon the galaxy through any means necessary. Palpatine just wants power for its own sake. But Anakin wants power because he misses his mom and has attachment/abandonment issues.

While I agree that the rise of the Empire should have been inextricably tied to Vader's rise, I don't think Lucas ever made an effective connection between Anakin's fall to evil and becoming Vader, and the rise of the Empire. He connects them, but it's very forced and abrupt. It was like he remembered that, oh yeah, Vader wasn't trying to resuscitate his dead wife. He was trying to take over the galaxy. So, right at the end, you get the stuff about ruling the galaxy.

I can think of one sequence in AOTC where Anakin barely mentions running the galaxy through a benevolent dictatorship, but taht was ultimately ignored. To my way of thinking, that was the kernel of Anakin/Vader -- the willingness to use evil to create good in the form of peace. Kind of like the line from Tacitus about how "They make a desert and call it peace." I always thought Anakin would've been scarred by the war and watching so much death to the point where he says "Never again, by any means necessary," and that is basically his motivation for evil. He'd view the Jedi as myopic and hopelessly mired in tradition, not to mention totally ill-equipped to keep the galaxy safe. So, he resolves to do it his damn self by any means necessary, including the use of murder, terror weapons, etc.

I wouldn't have had him kill off the Jedi younglings, either, UNLESS he was conflicted about it and convinced that it was necessary because otherwise they'd grow up to destroy the Empire. I'd want Anakin to be a passionate believer in the Empire. I could've seen him saying something like "Peace through strength. Order through control. By any means necessary." Huge terror weapons, brutal reprisals for dissenters, murder, oppression, force-chokes, etc. All of that fits more with "Any means necessary" and a goal of forcing the galaxy to be peaceful and ordered. It doesn't really fit with "I miss my mom and wife... >sadjedipanda<"

 

[joshvanrad]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

The OT was so incredibly simple that children could understand it, and adults could thoroughly enjoy it. I think GL tried to do WAY too much with the PT and he failed at connecting the dots and creating an enjoyable yet simple storyline. A movie does not have to be overtly complex to have good plot twists and a strong storyline.

 

[JD]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

‘Star Wars’: Adam Driver to Play the Villain



?Star Wars?: Adam Driver to Play the Villain (EXCLUSIVE)

Has this been mentioned yet?

Yes, go back a page or two and there was some discussion starting with Vivek 's post.

http://www.therpf.com/f47/star-wars-episode-vii-164999/index234.html#post3222196

Unfortunately, the conversation here is decidedly not about Episode VII and just drivel about the other films in the series. (Where they all perfect? No. But, man... they were good).

 

[kristen jones]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I honestly don't think it's necessary to have ALL of these points labouriously fleshed out on screen in order for the audience to "get it" in terms of the politics. We all know how the Governments function in our respective countries, and so I imagine most audience members insert that model in their minds when viewing.

We also all know what corrupt politicians act like, and so showing Palpatine doing some of his manipulating doesn't need to be tiresomely explained in order for us to go ahead and take the leap of faith that these things happened.

There comes a point when there is TOO MUCH detail given, and the audience checks out.

I don't think the politics were "poorly handled" at all.

Side note, but I'd dispute that the politics were well-handled, or that they were central to the films. I do agree that they were supposed to be central, but I think they were poorly done, probably because Lucas wasn't all that interested in them in the first place.

For example, we have no idea how the Senate works. Are there political parties? How does someone become Supreme Chancellor? When Valorum gets voted out, and Palpatine gets voted in, how's that work exactly? Why was Palpatine the guy who got nominated? He was just some minor Senator, no? So, what, just because the person who calls the no confidence vote succeeds in ousting the current SC, they get to pick the next one? Or had Palpatine actually shored up support and was clearly the next logical choice? We don't know, because the film doesn't say. For that matter, we have no idea why Valorum is so easily taken out of the equation. What ELSE had happened to make him ineffective? Or was it just the Naboo blockade?

And that brings up the issue of how the hell the Republic actually operates, if it can't stop one planet from blockading another. Is it like the U.N. or the League of Nations? (Which it's probably supposed to represent...) Is it like the UK Parliament or the US Congress? We don't know, because Lucas didn't care to elaborate.

When we skip ahead to the second film, we have no real explanation for the separatists' grievances, nor how the Senate is failing them. We have no idea why the Separatists want to separate, how many of them there are, nor exactly what they're separating from. It's pretty clear from the first film that the Senate doesn't really have the power to stop planets from DOING anything, so...why does the Separatist faction care what the Republic says? Why are they even a faction? We don't know, because Lucas didn't really care to explain it. Also, the 2nd film makes it clear that the Republic has no standing army. That's why it's such a big deal that Palpatine declares the formation of the Grand Army. So, without an army...what exactly does the Republic do again? It's not clear, because Lucas didn't care to explain. Probably because he didn't really have a clear idea himself.

For me, though, the biggest problem is in the final creation of the Empire in the last few minutes of ROTS. Palpatine says he's creating it and people go along with it because the Jedi..uh..attacked him and stuff. But by this point, we have no idea how the Empire is different from the Republic it's replacing. We just know it's GOING to be different...somehow. And it's gonna be bad. That's it. That's what we know.

I think the real problems with the political side is that it happens in these HUGE jumps, but the background for it is never really explored in any detail, BUT we're given JUST ENOUGH detail to say "Wait, what?! What the hell is going on here?!" That's because we're splitting time between telling Anakin's personal story, and the larger story of the galaxy (except, really, we're only telling Anakin's story), but getting very brief yet fairly narrowly focused views of the Republic in action (or in inaction, I suppose). I THINK Lucas was going for "Show them a little, let them imagine the rest." That worked great in the OT, but with the PT, I think he actually showed -- in a sense -- too much and not enough all at the same time.

I'd rather have seen Palpatine's rise to power be closer to something like House of Cards (either version). I'd rather have seen the gradual erosion of freedoms in the midst of the war. I'd rather that the Separatists were actually clear in WHY they were separating and WHAT they were separating to do that they couldn't do under the Republic. And I'd rather it have been made abundantly clear how we'd see Palpatine truly "cross the Rubicon" with the creation of the Empire, and how much worse it was actually going to get. I don't think Lucas did any of that particularly effectively, and it's why I find the political side to the Star Wars universe to be pretty underdeveloped and ineffective.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Yes, go back a page or two and there was some discussion starting with @Vivek 's post.

http://www.therpf.com/f47/star-wars-episode-vii-164999/index234.html#post3222196

Unfortunately, the conversation here is decidedly not about Episode VII and just drivel about the other films in the series. (Where they all perfect? No. But, man... they were good).

X2.

 

[cboath]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I think that was Lucas' intention, actually. He wanted to focus on how selfish behavior and an inability to love beyond himself was what led him to the dark side. If you think about it, all of Anakin's emotional connections are about HIM and are all entirely self-oriented. It's all about what other people do for him, rather than about him giving of himself. Anakin's love is one of possession, rather than selflessness. It's the love of a young child, rather than a man. One born of dependence, rather than self-sufficiency and self-confidence.



Look at the dialogue there. That's ALL about Anakin and what Padme does for him. It's fundamentally self-centered, rather than focused on Padme. Thus, when Anakin loses Padme, he feels threatened, helpless, just like a child would if their loved ones withheld love from them. This, in turn, causes him to lash out.

The problem is that they then conflate this with him taking the larger view and saying "Oh, and by the way, I'm gonna kill EVERYBODY and TAKE OVER THE GALAXY!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!" That's the part that doesn't jive with Anakin's development.

If Anakin's story was simply the story of a random Jedi who fell in love and, as a result, fell to the dark side when his jealousy and fear consumed him, it would be an AWESOME story. A tale about love-gone-wrong set in the Star Wars universe.

The problem is that Lucas tried to mash that up with the tale of a Republic crumbling, and a brutal dictatorship rising in its place, and the two go together about as well as chocolate and anchovies.



Don't think so in this thread, but it came up on the Facebook page. Until the studio announces anything, my advice is ignore everything.

While all true, none of that is inherently evil. Nothing he did in the prior 2.5 movies says i'll up and slaughter a whole temple full of people - including young children, presumably a number of which he knew or was acquainted with at the drop of a hat.

Darth Vader is supposed to be a badass - nothing about anakin we see says badass. It says whiny little @%^* - the last thing vader was was a whiny little $%^*%. At least in my book selfishness != (or <> depening on your bent ) dark side or evil. A selfish as anyone may be, I don't see them taking such a drastic action for their selfishness. In order to save my girl, i've gotta mercilously kill hundreds? I don't see it.

If that is the actual intent, then it's just another reason the PT wasn't very good - that aspect was not executed very well at all.

In the end, if he's turning into Darth Vader - we should see darkness in him. More than the sand people incident which to an extent can be excused for what they did. You'd expect the random force choke here, experimenting with dark powers there, manipulation of people. He did none of that.

I'd think anyone so effed up to do all he did at the drop of a hat would have shown the ability and propensity to do those things prior. There SHOULD have been a struggle between good and bad with him and this was the straw that broke the camels back. There was none of that though. Just whine whine whine, ok, i'll kill a bunch of people for you no prob.

 

[Sourdoh]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Wow! Some people have nothing to do all day but type exhaustive, over-long, paragraph-heavy posts dissecting crap that I don't care about; that wasn't needed in any film that is supposed to be entertaining!. I will see the new movie like I saw all the others. I will either enjoy it or not, like the others. But I will not sit in the dark and gripe, pule and moan about the shortcomings to all and sundry. Back away from the keyboard ... Go outside and let some Vitamin D into your head!

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Wow! Some people have nothing to do all day but type exhaustive, over-long, paragraph-heavy posts dissecting crap that I don't care about; that wasn't needed in any film that is supposed to be entertaining!. I will see the new movie like I saw all the others. I will either enjoy it or not, like the others. But I will not sit in the dark and gripe, pule and moan about the shortcomings to all and sundry. Back away from the keyboard ... Go outside and let some Vitamin D into your head!

To come to the defense, not that they need it, of Dan and others posting here, I respect and welcome their comments and it's part of a healthy online discussion…Even Jeyl although it pains me to say it.

 

[JoeG]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I'm all for healthy online discussion, and I understand there's really no news to report as far as Episode VII is concerned, but if people wanted to debate the merits of the PT (for the umpteenth time), shouldn't that be done in another thread?

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

It sounds like some of you have never read a book where your hand wasn't held the entire way throughout. Books, movies, or games don't and shouldn't need to layout everything to you like you're a kid. Some things you should be able to link together.

We don't need an exhaustive primer on how the Republic works. You think people bitch about the politics in the Prequels now! It's pretty obvious that somehow Palpatine engineered the vote so that he would win and become the new Chancellor. Why do you need more than that? Should Lucas have laid out the entire multi-year strategy from step one to tell you how Palpatine passed that no confidence vote on screen? I can layout pretty clearly how Hitler came to power without giving you the exact workings of the German Reichstag to get you to understand it. The other issue brought up was the blockade. They tell you in the movie that there's too much procedure and politicking to get things done. They can't stop debating to actually stop a blockade. People really didn't get that?

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I'm all for healthy online discussion, and I understand there's really no news to report as far as Episode VII is concerned, but if people wanted to debate the merits of the PT (for the umpteenth time), shouldn't that be done in another thread?

Indeed.