kristen jones
Master Member
I've just begun reading Bloodline (I mean JUST begun) so I'm really looking forward to finding these tidbits and then ruminating on how they inform the story so far!
Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
joshvanrad
Master Member
Interesting. Now I'm going to have to go through my TFA Art book.
ghostryder
Legendary Member
Insanely long deep dive into TFA:
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/06/28/star-wars-the-force-alluded-to
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/06/28/star-wars-the-force-alluded-to
I am about to start reading that article, but can´t stop wondering if it is really necessary to WRITE AN ENTIRE ARTICLE IN CAPITAL LETTERS !!!
EDIT: I made it to the paragraph where the Hulk uses "Falling down" as an example for character development. IMO "Falling down" was incredibly interesting and I loved seeing William Foster "fall down", until ... the reason for his breakdown was presented. That is one of my most hated movies, and not just because it is a Joel Schumacher movie.
SO ... let´s see what else the Hulk has to say ...
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ghostryder
Legendary Member
That's "Film Critic Hulk" for ya:
https://twitter.com/FilmCritHULK
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueFilm/c...hat_weird_internet_critic_film_crit_hulk_aha/
https://twitter.com/FilmCritHULK
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueFilm/c...hat_weird_internet_critic_film_crit_hulk_aha/
Solo4114
Master Member
Interesting piece from Film Crit Hulk, and I actually agree with many of his criticisms. I still really enjoyed the movie for what it was (a bridge film that introduces new material but doesn't fully provide resolution, while also STRONGLY hearkening back to the old films), but it reflects and better expresses many of my own concerns.
I think he goes a bit too far in criticizing some of the character traits by claiming that they come from nowhere (e.g. Rey being able to fly the Falcon). I think those are specific choices in the film which are intended to suggest "No, seriously, there's something weirdly special about Rey. Stay tuned for more...." I do, however, agree that the "mystery" aspect of it is (a) kind of annoying, and (b) something that could've been handled a lot better. I get JJ's predilection for creating "mysteries," but it seems kind of like a lame trick these days. Mostly because he SO heavily relies on it. Kinda like Joss Whedon killing main characters. Yeah, yeah, we get it. You're edgy. Whatever. Surprise me with something new, why don't ya?
Anyway, my biggest complaint about the film was that it felt like it didn't have time to breathe. Film Crit Hulk explains that this sensation had to do not only with the overall pacing, but with not allowing for the moments in between action sequences to occur and to thereby flesh out the characters and their motivations. It's a really insightful point, and one I think bedevils Abrams in much of his work. Film Crit Hulk also notes the excessive reliance on external material. And on that point, I ABSOLUTELY agree. Back when the first JJTrek film came out, I said "If you have to point to the comic, the novelization, the breakfast cereal, the cartoon, or some other external source to explain something that was missing or confusing...your film has failed to effectively handle that point." Films should tell complete stories, not refer you to their comic/novelization/videogame adaptation appendix to answer your questions.
I think he goes a bit too far in criticizing some of the character traits by claiming that they come from nowhere (e.g. Rey being able to fly the Falcon). I think those are specific choices in the film which are intended to suggest "No, seriously, there's something weirdly special about Rey. Stay tuned for more...." I do, however, agree that the "mystery" aspect of it is (a) kind of annoying, and (b) something that could've been handled a lot better. I get JJ's predilection for creating "mysteries," but it seems kind of like a lame trick these days. Mostly because he SO heavily relies on it. Kinda like Joss Whedon killing main characters. Yeah, yeah, we get it. You're edgy. Whatever. Surprise me with something new, why don't ya?
Anyway, my biggest complaint about the film was that it felt like it didn't have time to breathe. Film Crit Hulk explains that this sensation had to do not only with the overall pacing, but with not allowing for the moments in between action sequences to occur and to thereby flesh out the characters and their motivations. It's a really insightful point, and one I think bedevils Abrams in much of his work. Film Crit Hulk also notes the excessive reliance on external material. And on that point, I ABSOLUTELY agree. Back when the first JJTrek film came out, I said "If you have to point to the comic, the novelization, the breakfast cereal, the cartoon, or some other external source to explain something that was missing or confusing...your film has failed to effectively handle that point." Films should tell complete stories, not refer you to their comic/novelization/videogame adaptation appendix to answer your questions.
I loved TFA, but I do not think it is a perfect movie. But your last point there is a criticism that drives me nuts. We really do not need to have all the answers spelled out for us. Really. It's GOOD to have some loose ends. It not only places the story within a deeper universe, but it makes the viewer think and speculate about that universe. It makes them think about the characters and why they may be the way they are. I mean, in ANH, Luke mentions he was not a bad pilot, and that he could bullseye womp rats, but it still stretched credibility that he could be an instant mega-ace pilot his FIRST TIME in an X-wing. We didn't question that, and for good reason.... we engaged in the universe and accepted that there was a in-universe explanation, even if we were not completely read into it. There are lots more examples. Anyway, I like some loose ends. I think they help create worlds.
therethere
Active Member
Can't the movie just be a fun time? I used to eat myself up over every little detail. Anything I thought was wrong, or was maybe a bit off with every movie that I had some emotional investment in (whether it was the director, writer, franchise, whatever) ripped me up. It's not worth it. TFA is a fun ride, far from perfect but totally watchable, and rewatchable. It's simply a populist movie with a bit of gravitas thrown in for good measure. Let's leave it there.
I think even by Ep. 9 there will be aspects of this story which are never explained because thats how they with to present it. You can argue that if they intentionally set up a mystery, even play it up outside the film in marketing or what not that any frustration is on them and that's true but I think that's the way this may go. And I'm ok with that as long as I have fun.
crabra comander
Master Member
Guys, Lego Star Wars TFA has all the canon material you guys need to fill in the gaps of the story...
Like Mel Brooks said: Merchandising, merchandising!
Like Mel Brooks said: Merchandising, merchandising!
Solo4114
Master Member
I think you misunderstand what I'm getting at. Having mystery in and of itself isn't a bad thing. Mystery can be a great, propulsive device. Likewise, having connections to a deeper, more expansive universe is also a good thing. It provides hardcore fans with the opportunity to really dive into the universe and experience more of it.
The problem is when a film relies upon mystery or that expanded universe stuff to explain things like character motivations or seemingly random moments, or requires the audience not merely to jumpt to a logical conclusion, but basically to write the backstory. I'll give you a couple examples.
Example 1: In the original Star Wars, Luke is (apparently) aware of "Old Ben." He doesn't realize that "Ben" is actually "Obi-Wan Kenobi," famous space general, but he knows of him and seems somewhat familiar with him. There's a conversation at the Lars dinner table, and Luke actually recognizes him when Ben wakes him up after the sand people attack him. In the course of the film, Ben becomes not merely a mentor to Luke, but a surrogate father of sorts. This is particularly pronounced because the audience knows Luke grew up without a father AND wishes he knew his father. We know this because of the scene in Ben's house where Luke says so. When Luke loses the Lars, we see his pain at the loss of his family and his sense of no longer having any reason to stay on Tatooine. He's determined to move on in his life and learn to become a Jedi like his father. So, when Ben dies, we see Luke (1) FLIP OUT at the Death Star (and also develop some amazing aim all of a sudden), and (2) mourn his loss at multiple points thereafter. We see him say he can't believe Ben's gone once the Falcon is away from the Death Star, although he doesn't have much time to mourn. We see him at the Rebel base wish that Ben were there with them before he sorties out to attack the Death Star. Bottom line, the film goes to strong lengths to both create a deep bond between Luke and Ben (even in only around 120 min), and it does so by setting up Luke's family situation, showing him transfer a sense of familial connection to Ben, and then showing the impact of Ben's loss on Luke. It's all believable for the character. The audience never thinks to question it. There's no "Wait, what?! Why the hell should Luke care? He just met this guy like 2 days ago for the first time ever! WTF?!"
In TFA, Rey has a somewhat similar arc with Han Solo. She knows him by reputation. She also clearly misses her family and it's a big part of why she actually talks about wanting to go back to Jakku even after she's left. She's shown to have a few minor bonding moments with him (e.g. when Han gives her his pistol). When Han is killed by Kylo Ren, we totally understand why Chewie flips his lid. But, it's unclear why Rey is sobbing. Rey doesn't have that level of relationship with Han, or at least the film hasn't spent time building it up as such. Instead, Rey is actually acting as the audience's proxy. She's crying for us. Her grief is our grief, but it isn't her own. The audience doesn't question this, but that's because the audience itself is grief-stricken at the loss of the character it knows and loves. But if you stop to think about it, the film hasn't really done the same level of work at establishing the relationship between Rey and Han as it did between Luke and Ben. It's the audience has the deep relationship with Han, not Rey.
Now, the film still works fine, and is still entertaining, but that's more because it's manipulating the audience in a particular way, through the deployment of nostalgia and playing on the audience's relationship with the film franchise and its characters. But when you look more closely at the film independent of that, it doesn't really hold together that well. I mean, yeah, you can kinda sorta piece together what's happening, but the magnitude of Rey's response doesn't match the relationship established on screen. The thing is, if Rey had just been sort of sad at Han's death (e.g., no tears, just a sad frown), that moment wouldn't have worked either, because the audience is already so invested in the character. The audience would have no opportunity for catharsis over Han's death, and Rey's reaction would have been discordant with the audience's reaction. So, in a sense, the film picks the lesser of two flaws, and errs on the side of reflecting the audience's emotions, rather than playing counter to the audience's emotions (which would be the more in-character response for Rey).
What the film could have done, however, is, say, slow down or cut out an action sequence, and allow for some scenes that more effectively establish the bond between Rey and Han as a kind of father/daughter bond. It could have shown Rey as reluctant to make connections with people because of her family leaving her behind. It could have shown her as distrustful of Han -- even knowing who he is -- because she distrusts everyone for fear of them leaving her. And it could have shown her slowly opening up to Han and bonding with him. But the film doesn't take the time to do that. So, Rey's response is ultimately unearned for her character. We don't care, though, because it's earned for the audience. It's not a critical flaw in the audience's experience (to the contrary, it relies upon the audience's experience to work). But if you weren't a Star Wars fan already and literally just watched this film on its own, absent any context, it'd be understandable if you watched Rey sobbing her eyes out at Han's death and thought "Well, that seems a little much for her..."
Example 2: In the original film, the opening crawl establishes a pretty solid basis for the universe. There's an evil empire, there are rebels fighting it, and thanks to the boardroom scene with Tarkin and Motti and "I find your lack of faith disturbing," we know that the Empire plans to use the Death Star to intimidate the galaxy into behaving and ending the rebellion. We then see the Death Star blow up Princess Leia's planet as part of its final weapons test. We don't need to know a ton about Alderaan (it's peaceful, they have no military, it's an innocent bystander in this war, kinda). We don't need a ton of info about the republic, but we know that the Imperial Senate gets dissolved during the film and that regional governors now have direct control. It's pretty clear what's going on. Nothing complicated.
TFA, on the other hand, introduces some rather confusing concepts. We know there's a Republic. We know that the First Order is kind of the new Empire. But there's also a Resistance? That doesn't make a ton of sense...why isn't the Republic actually fighting the First Order? Where does the Resistance fit in with the Republic? Is there no Republic military? Why the hell would they have demilitarized if they also allowed the Empire to escape? Who's behind the Resistance and what are they up to? Later in the film, we see the Republic capital which apparently isn't Coruscant, and we see it and several other planets get blown up. Which, according to the First Order, basically means the Republic is destroyed? So the Republic is only five planets? What's going on? It's never really explained in the film. You're just expected to take the film at face value when it says stuff like "The Republic has been destroyed!" and such. You're expected to transfer your understanding of the Rebellion on to the Resistance, regardless of whether that's accurate.
Apparently there were a few scenes cut from the film that would've explained this better. A scene of Leia sending an underling to go talk to the Republic (who gets blown up on their capital, some scene of her talking to the Republic to ask for help, discussions of what happened at the battle of Jakku and why there's no Republic military, etc. And apparently most of this is explained in the novelization of the film, which helps it make a lot more sense.
But that's just it. You shouldn't need the novelization of the film to explain this stuff and understand what's going on. But, again, because the film chose to focus more on exciting chase and action sequences, it doesn't allow itself time to do this stuff. Even though it would contextualize what's going on, and help make the universe feel more understandable and more alive. Is it a critical failure? No, not really, but if you went into this film not having the book handy or not knowing anything about the previous six films, you'd be totally lost as to who each political entity is, and how they relate to each other, other than to say "I guess the Resistance is somehow related to the Republic, and it fights the First Order." In that sense, the film doesn't effectively stand on its own, and therefore doesn't effectively tell its story as a film. As part of an ongoing franchise, it works...you know, decently...but it could've worked better.
Example 3: In the original film, Luke is able to blow up the Death Star when everyone else couldn't do it. He even turns off his targeting computer to do so. But we know he can do it because we hear Obi-Wan tell him to use the Force. What's more, we've (A) had the Force explained to us (kinda), and we've seen it in action in several occasions. Obi-Wan fools the Stormtroopers in Mos Eisley using the Force. Obi-Wan teaches Luke to use it on the Falcon and we SEE Luke actually start to get it. Obi-Wan uses it to distract more Stormtroopers no the Death Star. And we see Vader choke a guy almost to death using the Force. Vader even remarks as he's chasing Luke that the Force is strong with him. So, when Luke does manage to blow up the Death Star, his ability is "earned." We get it, the movie laid out the trail of breadcrumbs to get us there.
In TFA, Rey is amazingly good at a bunch of stuff. Now, I tend to think that the film -- as the first part of a trilogy -- is intentionally hiding the ball here. I think it's a dramatic choice by Abrams & Co., and they know exactly why Rey is great at these things, and will reveal it to the audience at a later date. It's STRONGLY implied that there's something weirdly special about Rey, but we don't know exactly what or why. We just see glimpses of her abilities. Her fighting skills with her staff, her piloting skills and understanding of mechanics, her ability to understand BB-8, etc. She can do a ton of stuff. Yet she has ZERO training in the film.
Now, all of this prompts people to claim she's a Mary Sue. I strongly disagree with this, BUT I do think that the film could've done a slightly better job of at least hinting at "No, seriously, this is a mystery that WE WILL REVEAL LATER. There's a reason beyond just the Mary Sue stuff. But we'll tell you later." It could have done more to highlight that it's legitimate to question why Rey's so special, but also imply that it's a mystery to be revealed at a later date and not just "Because we want her to be able to do stuff in the moment." So, for example, at some point in the film, Finn could've said, "How'd you get to be so good at all of this stuff?" and she could have replied "I really don't know. I've always just...been able to do it. But I've never understood why. My parents always told me I was special, but I've been alone since I was little, so I never found out what they meant." This isn't exactly elegant, but my point is that there are ways in which Rey's abilities could be remarked upon, and they could be a mystery even to herself. Before she leaves for Luke's planet, she could explain the Force visions and hearing the voice when fighting Kylo Ren, and she could say that she needs to understand why she can do all of this when others can't. So, she's going to the one person who can help her learn: Luke.
But, again, the film was more concerned with slam-bang action.
I think they could've done things like, for example, shortening the escape from Jakku sequence, cutting the whole thing with the Rathtars on Han's ship, and cutting down a few other action sequences, so as to allow the film room to discuss this stuff. But they didn't, so we have what we have: an imperfect film that relies heavily on audience meta-knowledge,
Of course! It's a TERRIFIC ride, and one that I thoroughly enjoyed! It's practically built FOR hardcore fans, and especially fans who were a little disappointed with the prequels! And it's very, very rewatchable. No argument there.
All I'm saying is that I see areas where it could've been improved significantly. And I understand what Film Crit Hulk is on about when he points out the film's flaws. I think they're important flaws. They aren't critical flaws that prevent me from enjoying the film, but they are important, no question. And the film would've been a lot better without them. But the film's still a ton of fun, and I do still love it.
I actually think the mystery stuff will largely be answered. as I see it, the big remaining mysteries are:
1. Who is Snoke and what's his story?
2. What is Rey's parentage/background? Why is she so good at stuff?
3. What happened to the Jedi academy or whatever Luke was doing, that we saw in the vision?
That's about all I can come up with. The rest of the stuff can be/has been fleshed out elsewhere. The relationship of the First Order to the Republic and the Resistance is covered in other material outside the film. I tend to dislike that, but it takes that stuff out of "mystery" category and mostly just makes it "externally referenced" stuff.
I don't expect they'll raise a ton of additional mysteries, though, mostly because JJ won't be involved as closely in the subsequent two films in this trilogy. "Mystery boxes" are JJ's thing.
It absolutely should be fun! TFA was wonderful and is in my top 3 of the SW movies. But part of the fun is also speculating, wishing, wanting and just having fun with the "what ifs". Heck, gives us something to do until Dec!
Yeah even Daisy has said she knows who Rey's parents are although that doesn't mean it will be explored in the film but it is likely. It will be interesting how much backstory on screen Snoke is given. If Leia hadn't mentioned Snoke to Han as the source of Ben's fall they likely could have just left him a mystery but they have planted that seed in film. And no doubt Luke will inform Rey about the dispisition of his previous "academy" as it is a huge part of his motivation presumably to search out the original Jedi Temple and remove himself from galactic affairs.
Didn't she say her parents had no connection/impact to the actual story?
Not exactly, the implication she and others have sort of made is that her parents ultimately don't really matter for her story arc. In screen all we know if Rey's family is that she was left on Jakku with a promise to return. Maz points out that deep in Rey's heart she knows they are never coming back, thus allowing her to begin her heroe's journey. Who they are has no meaningful bearing on that.
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Thanks for the well-thought-out post. I understood your points, though perhaps I did not express that clearly. But I do disagree with your conclusions. I didn't feel at all like I was dependent on any external source to understand the story at all. One bit I DO agree with you on is that the position of Resistance with respect to the Republic could have been clearer. In the crawl, we are told the Republic supports the Resistance, but more detail. I would have liked to see more there, though I do not feel it detracted from the story at all. I thought it was like the briefing room scene in ANH where we are given hints of the politcal situation, but no details. I remember some confusion about Leia being an Imperial Senator, but also a Rebel, but that just stoked stories in my head. So let me talk a bit about your examples.
1. I thought Luke and Rey were in pretty analogous situations. Luke clearly has developed a relationship with Ben over the few days he's elbow to elbow with him, but he seems to have barely known him before, and certainly didn't have any emotional investment. And Rey is STARVED for some intimate relationships. She forms a deep friendship with Finn very rapidly, and Sol.o, of course, becomes a father figure. She has had no sense of belonging or affection for YEARS and here this guys seems to like her. He offered her a job, which clearly pleased her immensely, and he knew the almost mythical hero Luke Skywalker. Add to the emotion of seeing ANYONE impaled in cold blood and her reaction seems entirely justified to me.
2. As I discussed earlier, I would like to seen s about more here in TFA, though I think you are overly generous with ANH. In ANH, we know very little. We don't know who the Emperor is, or where he came from. We don't know why Leia is a Senator AND a Rebel leader. We don't know what the Imperial Senate even is, or why it was dissolved. The set-up is very basic, but effective all the same. TFA has a bigger task, as it enters into a well-established, complicated world. I'm of the opinion that a little more detail would have been good, but they have to be careful not to lose general audience with long expositionary scenes on the political situation.
3. But somehow Luke manages to do very well in the X-wing, even before he uses the Force. I consider Luke's "Force call" to be the same as Rey remembering what Maz told her about the Force. I think her being amazingly good at flying and fighting is just a tip of the cards to the audience that she is special, and to expect more. Even FInn says "How did you do that?" after the Falcon escape scene. She replies quickly "I don't know!" Though it is clear she knows about the Falcon itself (she obviously worked on it). But her skills are not any more remarkable than Luke's or especially Anakin's. She is clearly VERY strong in the Force.
I disagree that the film is focused on slam-bang action, though it had some of the best action in any Star Wars film. When I think of my favorite parts of the movie, they are not eh action scenes.
1. I thought Luke and Rey were in pretty analogous situations. Luke clearly has developed a relationship with Ben over the few days he's elbow to elbow with him, but he seems to have barely known him before, and certainly didn't have any emotional investment. And Rey is STARVED for some intimate relationships. She forms a deep friendship with Finn very rapidly, and Sol.o, of course, becomes a father figure. She has had no sense of belonging or affection for YEARS and here this guys seems to like her. He offered her a job, which clearly pleased her immensely, and he knew the almost mythical hero Luke Skywalker. Add to the emotion of seeing ANYONE impaled in cold blood and her reaction seems entirely justified to me.
2. As I discussed earlier, I would like to seen s about more here in TFA, though I think you are overly generous with ANH. In ANH, we know very little. We don't know who the Emperor is, or where he came from. We don't know why Leia is a Senator AND a Rebel leader. We don't know what the Imperial Senate even is, or why it was dissolved. The set-up is very basic, but effective all the same. TFA has a bigger task, as it enters into a well-established, complicated world. I'm of the opinion that a little more detail would have been good, but they have to be careful not to lose general audience with long expositionary scenes on the political situation.
3. But somehow Luke manages to do very well in the X-wing, even before he uses the Force. I consider Luke's "Force call" to be the same as Rey remembering what Maz told her about the Force. I think her being amazingly good at flying and fighting is just a tip of the cards to the audience that she is special, and to expect more. Even FInn says "How did you do that?" after the Falcon escape scene. She replies quickly "I don't know!" Though it is clear she knows about the Falcon itself (she obviously worked on it). But her skills are not any more remarkable than Luke's or especially Anakin's. She is clearly VERY strong in the Force.
I disagree that the film is focused on slam-bang action, though it had some of the best action in any Star Wars film. When I think of my favorite parts of the movie, they are not eh action scenes.
HMMM... Well, I'm hanging on to the idea of her being a Skywalker until the very end... and maybe, if she's not, even a few months past the big reveal!
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