Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)

Thanks for the well-thought-out post. I understood your points, though perhaps I did not express that clearly. But I do disagree with your conclusions. I didn't feel at all like I was dependent on any external source to understand the story at all. One bit I DO agree with you on is that the position of Resistance with respect to the Republic could have been clearer. In the crawl, we are told the Republic supports the Resistance, but more detail. I would have liked to see more there, though I do not feel it detracted from the story at all. I thought it was like the briefing room scene in ANH where we are given hints of the politcal situation, but no details. I remember some confusion about Leia being an Imperial Senator, but also a Rebel, but that just stoked stories in my head. So let me talk a bit about your examples.

1. I thought Luke and Rey were in pretty analogous situations. Luke clearly has developed a relationship with Ben over the few days he's elbow to elbow with him, but he seems to have barely known him before, and certainly didn't have any emotional investment. And Rey is STARVED for some intimate relationships. She forms a deep friendship with Finn very rapidly, and Sol.o, of course, becomes a father figure. She has had no sense of belonging or affection for YEARS and here this guys seems to like her. He offered her a job, which clearly pleased her immensely, and he knew the almost mythical hero Luke Skywalker. Add to the emotion of seeing ANYONE impaled in cold blood and her reaction seems entirely justified to me.

Ah, but see, you have to ask yourself something: how much of that information is you filling in the blanks, and how much of it is the film showing you this stuff? How much is your own ex post facto creation (i.e., how did we get to here from there? It must have been these following things), and how much is really on screen?

For example, you say the film shows Solo as a father figure to Rey. But does it? I'm not sure it builds that relationship as clearly as we are led to think it does. And we're mostly led to think that because (A) we have our own relationship with Solo as the audience, (B) Rey's reaction at his death is what you'd expect of someone who has a surrogate parental relationship with this person, and (C) they occupy the positions where we expect them to have that kind of relationship. But that's not the same as actually showing the relationship. I may not be remembering it, but I don't recall, for example, Han acting as a real mentor to her, trying to teach her, bring her along, etc. Other than the blaster sequence, which is really, really brief. Everything else is mostly matter-of-fact dealing with her. He's friendly, but he doesn't act parental or as a mentor to her for the most part.

I think we see what we expect to see, but what isn't necessarily there.

2. As I discussed earlier, I would like to seen s about more here in TFA, though I think you are overly generous with ANH. In ANH, we know very little. We don't know who the Emperor is, or where he came from. We don't know why Leia is a Senator AND a Rebel leader. We don't know what the Imperial Senate even is, or why it was dissolved. The set-up is very basic, but effective all the same. TFA has a bigger task, as it enters into a well-established, complicated world. I'm of the opinion that a little more detail would have been good, but they have to be careful not to lose general audience with long expositionary scenes on the political situation.

Waaaaaaaay upthread, I laid out how, like, 3 more lines in the crawl could've done it. But you could also have shown a single scene of Leia or her adjutant begging the Senate to rearm to fight, and them being reluctant. That's all you need. That establishes why there's a "Resistance" and why the Republic isn't doing anything. I think people got the sense that politics = boring because politics in TPM were boring. But that was because they were talking about boring stuff. It wasn't effectively contextualized. People make it seem like TPM involved a lengthy sequence with Robert's Rules of Order and a ton of dialogue, but the real problem is that the plot itself and reason for being in the senate are boring and overly complicated.

In TFA, you could have a sequence where Leia tells her adjutant "You have to get them to break the Treaty of Jakku. The First Order already has. The Republic needs to rearm too, before it's too late." Then, while the adjutant is trying to convince the Republic, and while the Republic dithers, GIANT SPACE CANNON DESTROYS IT. Now your politicking isn't boring! :)

3. But somehow Luke manages to do very well in the X-wing, even before he uses the Force. I consider Luke's "Force call" to be the same as Rey remembering what Maz told her about the Force. I think her being amazingly good at flying and fighting is just a tip of the cards to the audience that she is special, and to expect more. Even FInn says "How did you do that?" after the Falcon escape scene. She replies quickly "I don't know!" Though it is clear she knows about the Falcon itself (she obviously worked on it). But her skills are not any more remarkable than Luke's or especially Anakin's. She is clearly VERY strong in the Force.

I disagree that the film is focused on slam-bang action, though it had some of the best action in any Star Wars film. When I think of my favorite parts of the movie, they are not eh action scenes.

Two things.

First, I'm not saying that the film ONLY does action. There's more to it than just that. But I'm saying trimming the action would have allowed more of the non-action stuff to breathe and would've provided room to do things like shore up characters so that their behavior is clearly based on established motivation, rather than "Here's what we need them to do in the moment."

Second, as for Luke's ability in the X-wing, it's true that that's never really explained in the film. Later films and external materials imply that it's because he's awesome with the Force, but it's never clearly explained. I suppose you could say how he used to bullseye womprats in his T-16 back home is a very loose hint at his ability to fly (and there's the deleted-then-restored scene about Biggs saying he's a good pilot), but that's it.

The thing with Rey, though, is that so much of what she does is remarkable. Luke, in the first film, is kind of a doof for the most part. He's good in the Falcon's turrets, and with a blaster on the Death Star. But much of the time he's just kind of bumbling. He gets his ass kicked at the bar, he's easily irritated by Han at the bar, and he's still just kinda learning how to use the lightsabre. At home, he's a whiny farmboy who wants to go hang with his friends. He's hardly all powerful. Really, his blaster skills and his piloting are the only unexplained skills.

Rey, by contrast, is able to mind-trick someone AND use a lightsabre to take on a trained opponent, AND fly the Falcon, AND knows about all the different weird parts and quirks of the ship, AND gets out of the Rathtar thing, AND can speak BB-8's language. And it's never really explained. It's left to the audience to make the leap that "Of course! She must be really strong with the Force!" but the film itself never connects the dots. Again, that's relying on the audience's meta-knowledge of the universe itself. If you didn't know what the Force was, if you just watched this film on its own, having NEVER EVER seen a Star Wars film before (and, I guess, living in a cave since 1977?), you'd be well within your rights to wonder why the hell Rey can do all this stuff. I think the film could've at least spoken to this fact a bit more than it did.

Again, not a critical flaw that kills enjoyment for me, but one that I think is still a valid criticism of the film itself.
 
For example, you say the film shows Solo as a father figure to Rey. But does it?

well yeah... it does.

For example, when Kylo Ren was reading Rey's thoughts he said in these exact words:

"You feel he's the FATHER you never had."

Pretty clear cut, i'd say. She obviously bonded deeply with him. Some may say it seems too fast...but when you have been alone your ENTIRE life... i expect you would bond quickly with someone who fits the bill of what you feel you're missing.
 
well yeah... it does.

For example, when Kylo Ren was reading Rey's thoughts he said in these exact words:

"You feel he's the FATHER you never had."

Pretty clear cut, i'd say. She obviously bonded deeply with him. Some may say it seems too fast...but when you have been alone your ENTIRE life... i expect you would bond quickly with someone who fits the bill of what you feel you're missing.

Great point. I agree that most of the answers are there but I agree with Dan insofar as the films pacing is breakneck and it easy to loose track of some of these minor plot points. I think you also have to ask "does it really matter?" Case in point the political dispisition of the Galaxy. As pointed out, it's not well vetted in ANH either but isn't really material to the story.

Some fun tweets and pics as they near the end of filming.

http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016...nal-days-of-episodeviii-filming-and-more.html
 
Last edited:
That last image of the gentleman with the umbrella... that better not be any of the Falcon within that rubble!
 
well yeah... it does.

For example, when Kylo Ren was reading Rey's thoughts he said in these exact words:

"You feel he's the FATHER you never had."

Pretty clear cut, i'd say. She obviously bonded deeply with him. Some may say it seems too fast...but when you have been alone your ENTIRE life... i expect you would bond quickly with someone who fits the bill of what you feel you're missing.

I honestly have no recollection of that.

But it still kinda goes to my point that they "told" us that, but didn't "show" us that. Like, I get that Rey feels it. But the movie didn't really show it up to that point. At least not that I recall. But hey, I forgot this line, so it's possible I'm forgetting that, too.

My point on show vs. tell, though, is like if Finn mentioned that he was glad they disposed of his arch nemesis after getting rid of Captain Phasma. Like, ok, I get that Finn believes it if he said it, but...where'd that come from? What did we see to demonstrate that fact?

With Rey feeling like Han is a father figure, we hear Kylo say it, and they stand in the position of people who'd be in such a relationship, but I don't recall the film really taking the time to show that relationship developing the way we saw with Luke and Obi-Wan. It still works, obviously. Enough people come out of the theater thinking "Oh yeah. She totally saw him as a father figure." But I think that's more due to almost a kind of cinematic slight of hand, where you think something happened that didn't actually happen, because the film knows how to play on your expectations and get you to fill in the blanks.

It's like the film knows if it writes:

Paris in the
the Spring

you're gonna read that as "Paris in the Spring." Your unconscious mind will "make" the film work, so the end result is the same. But you made that leap, not the film.

Great point. I agree that most of the answers are there but I agree with Dan insofar as the films pacing is breakneck and it easy to loose track of some of these minor plot points. I think you also have to ask "does it really matter?" Case in point the political dispisition of the Galaxy. As pointed out, it's not well vetted in ANH either but isn't really material to the story.

Some fun tweets and pics as they near the end of filming.

http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016...nal-days-of-episodeviii-filming-and-more.html

Yeah, I don't think it's really a huge deal for the film. I think the film could be better if they'd slowed down a bit and allowed various moments to hit, and I think the characters would also be better realized if they did, but the film's still a hell of a lot of fun. And as I say, slight of hand or otherwise, the film still works as an audience experience.
 
The first of many Disney / TFA double dips:

http://collider.com/star-wars-the-force-awakens-blu-ray-new-deleted-scenes/


star-wars-the-force-awakens-3d-blu-ray-box-art.jpg
 
Best cover for the film EVER! This is essentially the "Star Trek Compendium" that Paramount did where they re-released an already available film and take all the extras that were scattered throughout as in-store exclusives and put it all in one place. Unlike that set, I doubt this will have the IMAX footage.
 
HMMM... Well, I'm hanging on to the idea of her being a Skywalker until the very end... and maybe, if she's not, even a few months past the big reveal! ;)

The quote i read said that she was told during E8 filming and it was 'no big deal' to her. Never heard a comment related to the story.
 
There is most definitely a Daggit faced alien in Maz Kanata's Place. A Daggit is a Dog Like droid form the vintage Battlkestar Galactica.
 
Saving the commentary for the 3D release was a ****** move, thanks Disney. I wont be buying this release.
 
After watching Avatar on my 3D TV and giving myself a splitting headache, I doubt I'll be buying too many 3D releases, unless they use their 3D sparingly.
 
TFA did use it sparingly. Most of the film, you could take off your glasses and things were a little blurry at most. The 3D-est bits I remember were the opening shot, where the Finalizer moved into frame seemingly from somewhere in the side wall of the theater, and the other Finalizer shot of it hanging in space with its prow pointed at the camera -- and seemingly so close you could reach out and touch it.

--Jonah
 
See -- and this is my issue with 3D -- if you're gonna use it sparingly, that's fine, but even then, it ends up just...feeling kinda pointless. It's a thing that you go "Oh cool!" at best, or "Well, that was unnecessary" at worst.

I've not seen too many 3D films. I've seen films where I could spot the sequences they used 3D, and I saw no major benefit to using it there (e.g. Captain America: The First Avenger -- there's a sequence where Cap's beating up Nazis and flipping around and such. I KNOW they used 3D in those moments, because the film -- even in 2D -- took on a "different" look). I've seen films that used it throughout (e.g. Avatar) and I thought it added nothing to the experience other than giving me a raging headache for hours after. At most, the 3D effect used throughout the film helped to create a sense of alienness (e.g. Avatar and the recent Oz film from Disney). But even that faded into the background and seemed pointless after a while.

The one (1) film I watched that used it effectively was Dredd 3D. Most of the time, all it added was a touch of depth-of-field, and a subtle touch at that. The only sequences that were really heavy with 3D were the drug sequences, where the very artificiality/surreality off 3D processing was used to basically simulate a trip on the drug in the film. It was amazing. A perfect blending of f/x with narrative. 3D processing that actually furthered the story, rather than just being "Comin' at ya!" window dressing.

No film that I've seen outside of that one has used 3D to any similar effect, and the whole thing seems largely superfluous to me.
 
Back
Top