Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)

A few pages ago, several folks were stating that Kylo couldn't be
super evil because he struggled with doing what he had to do. Isn't that precisely the kinds of thing that makes him, indeed, evil? I mean, is a shark evil that eats a surfer, or is the shark merely being a shark? Someone who recognizes an act as evil to the point where it nearly tears him apart, yet still does it, is pretty much as evil as it gets IMO.

Exactly !

Vader killing tons of people to gain power to save someone he loves .
Kylo killing tons of people to gain power so he can be like Vader and kill someone he loves. To gain even more power .

Which is worse ?

Kylo says he is gonna finish what Vader started. Vader failed at what he started from the very beginning .
I am interested to know what he thinks Vader was trying to accomplish ?
Maybe he found an old diary or something ? LOL .
 
Last edited:
Probably via Snoke and holocrons and stories he heard growing up. Not sure how much his parents and uncle told him about Vader, but perhaps he learned about his grand dad that way too. I don't see Kylo as a pure evil character neither, he clearly is struggling with it all, and he didn't kill Han for the pleasure of doing it, he did it to attempt to get closer to the dark side, mainly because Snoke told him it would. He's being heavily manipulated by Snoke it seems, just like Anakin was manipulated by his "friend" Palpy. As opposed the an archetype pure evil character that kills and does all kind of bad things just because he can or he enjoys it. Like the Joker I might say.
Boy, the Skywalkers are strong with the force, but they're not the brightest in the galaxy, are they ? :p
 
Nobody is pure evil IMO .
Lol
Skywalker's seem to be a whiny bunch as well , at least in there younger years. Leia seeming to be the black sheep of the family .
 
A few thoughts.

1. Re: the Force and how it works

To be fair, we really don't know all that much about it, at least based solely on the films themselves. In the original three films, the Force was a mystical energy field, created by life itself, which surrounds, penetrates, and binds the galaxy together. It controls your actions, but it also obeys your commands. Some people have a stronger or weaker connection to the Force, although how and why is never made clear. Through the Force, you can physically manipulate objects without actually touching them, and size is less important than believing in your abilities (as demonstrated by Yoda lifting the X-wing from the swamp). You can also use the Force to jump really high, to anticipate the action of your enemies, to "mind trick" people, to choke people, and to shoot lightning from your fingertips. And that's about it.

In the PT, that gets expanded to super-speed, super-enhanced reflexes, and various acrobatic feats, but the explicit powers themselves don't really change much. We just see them on display more. What really changes is the explanation for why someone is stronger or weaker in the Force, namely the midichlorian count in their cells (which can be determined through a blood sample). Apparently, the higher one's midichlorian count, the stronger one's connection with the Force, leading us to believe that it is the midichlorians themselves which interact with the Force. Midichlorians are also necessary for life itself, and can communicate the "will of the Force" to people who have them in sufficient numbers. But, again, the rest of the info is fairly vague on the subject.

The Clone Wars cartoon apparently dealt with concepts regarding two different "aspects" of the Force: the Living Force, and the Cosmic Force. The Cosmic Force is the aspect which binds everything together, and is fed by the Living Force. The Living Force was the aspect of the Force that was created by life itself. Through manipulation of the Living and Cosmic Force, one could appear as a Force ghost/spirit. In a metatextual sense, this strikes me as the Clone Wars' attempt to fuse what seem like two very distinct notions of what the Force "is" into a single, unified theory that more closely approximates what we learned about in the OT, without totally throwing out the PT concepts. But, regardless, this is canon now.

What we still don't know is just how independent a (ahem) force the Force actually is. The whole "controls your actions" thing implies that the Force can actually make people do this or that...sort of. This could explain how -- out of nowhere -- Rey is suddenly able to use the mind trick, use the Force to help her fight Kylo Ren, etc. Of course, we still don't know why this would happen, what the Force "wants" exactly, or whether the Force truly "wants" anything the way we do, or simply naturally seeks to establish some kind of balance in the universe which has somehow been upended.

I would bet that, in addition to the whole "Living Force" and "Cosmic Force," there will be some facet of the Force that relates to emotion as well as to intention. And, of course, one fantastic way to expand the story is to simply say that what characters said previously about how it all works...was simply wrong, or incomplete. So, the Old Jedi and Sith both had incomplete understandings of the Force, and neither way was truly the "right" way.

I have my own theory that there's this underlying thread in both the PT and the OT (and it's one of, in my opinion, the most interesting things that the PT really introduced, even if this was unintentional), which is the idea that emotion -- and specifically, emotion in balance -- is the essence of life itself. If the Force is created by all living things, then to cut oneself off from emotion is to ultimately deny oneself true life. But the flipside of that is that passion -- while an incredibly strong connection to life itself -- can ultimately lead a person to do destructive things (either self-destructive or destructive towards others). So, too much emotion will ultimately overwhelm life and end it.

If this is the case, then what Luke started (and Rey will presumably finish) is the process of moving the Jedi to an order which is capable of feeling deep emotions, without letting themselves just wantonly indulge those emotions. "Light" and "Dark" are less about the emotions themselves, and more about how those emotions manifest and the intentionality of the individual.


2. Re: Kylo Ren as a villain

I think basically that Kylo Ren is a more modern take on the villain. Instead of just being some cackling, moustache-twisting, power-hungry guy who does things purely for self-serving interests, he's someone who is motivated by a twisted sense of what the greater good is, and is willing to do awful things to attain that, even at the cost of his own soul.

In a way, he's a much more dangerous figure because he's a "true believer" in his cause, and has a "by any means necessary" attitude. He's not amoral or a vicious sadist. He's a crusader. To me, that's way, way more dangerous. A self-serving guy you can deal with. A crusader, a fanatic, there's just no controlling.
 
If someone already posted this I apologize. I didnt see it, but I like this image a lot.
View attachment 582170


HOLEY MOLEY! I did not make that connection, how daft is that?! Of course Chewie must have been some kind of godfather to Ben, so unless he had witnessed him becoming a really cruel monster I doubt that he made that decision lightly to shoot him. Wonderfully illustrated in that comic. Just like the one with Han and Baby-Ben.
 
I'm not really seeing where that's happening. No EU/PT filters here. The OT very much emphasizes the value of training. Luke tells Obi-wan he wants to learn the ways of the Force. It isn't something that just happens. Yoda even says "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor." I never got the impression that all one needed to do is simply believe in themselves, although that's surely a part of it. Now if something weird is going on with Rey, so be it, but I don't think anything like this has been seen before. It's not typical.

I *think* what Axlotl means--and I would agree-- is that believing in oneself is the key to letting the Force IN. It is the key to unleashing it's power within you. I believe this is what Old Ben was trying to get Luke to do when he encouraged him to distrust his eyes and act on instinct. Listen to you inner voice... follow your heart... Believe in Yourself.

this is the gateway to the Force.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A few pages ago, several folks were stating that Kylo couldn't be super evil because he struggled with doing what he had to do. Isn't that precisely the kinds of thing that makes him, indeed, evil? I mean, is a shark evil that eats a surfer, or is the shark merely being a shark? Someone who recognizes an act as evil to the point where it nearly tears him apart, yet still does it, is pretty much as evil as it gets IMO.

The shark isn't evil in either case. It is doing what it was designed (or evolved, if you prefer) to do: FEED ITSELF. It isn't a question of morality for the shark. The one who assigns the supposed morality on the shark's actions is Man.

The case with Kylo is quite different, because he wasn't born to slay his Father. He has had his mind and his emotions toyed with in order to bring him to the state where he *believes* that it is something that he must do in order to reach a goal that has been placed before him.

Two completely different things.
 
Luke: I don't believe it.

Yoda: That is why you fail.

Eh, I didn't take that as a reference of Luke not believing in himself. I took it as him underestimating what the Force was capable of.

As far as the remote scene goes, Obi-wan is encouraging Luke to listen to the Force and open himself to it. I didn't at all get that he was supposed to follow his heart or anything like that. The importance of having self-confidence and believing in yourself is not a major message I got out of those movies though I'm sure it's important in some capacity. I got that through the Force anything is impossible but you have to truly believe in it. That doesn't negate that training is important in achieving a state of being able to not only feel the Force but also being able to manipulate it.


EDIT:
Even in TESB when Luke is prematurely ending his training and leaving Dagobah with vim and vigor, he boasts he can "feel the Force" and Obi-wan admonishes "But you cannot control it." Feeling the Force is not all there is to it.
 
Last edited:
Luke: I don't believe it.

Yoda: That is why you fail.

Exactly and this is what I mean by bring back the magic. When I was a kid watching the OT the Force was magic. Training to use it seemed far less important then your "faith" in it. I do think GL really messed up the Force in the PT but he redeemed himself in CW and fixed it as Dan pointed out.
 
Eh, I didn't take that as a reference of Luke not believing in himself. I took it as him underestimating what the Force was capable of.

As far as the remote scene goes, Obi-wan is encouraging Luke to listen to the Force and open himself to it. I didn't at all get that he was supposed to follow his heart or anything like that. The importance of having self-confidence and believing in yourself is not a major message I got out of those movies though I'm sure it's important in some capacity. I got that through the Force anything is impossible but you have to truly believe in it. That doesn't negate that training is important in achieving a state of being able to hear the Force and feel it.

wow, really? I have always felt it's about belief and self confidence.
 
Belief sure, but Luke never struck me as someone with low self-confidence. I guess he was a little unsure in ROTJ with Yoda but that's about all I can think of that might apply.
 
It's laid out for you in Empire:


- - - Updated - - -

Luke definitely has low self-confidence (at least on Dagobah):

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well the first clip is not about self-confidence as far as I'm concerned. It's about Luke not grasping what the Force is really capable of. His skepticism is hindering him.

I'll grant you the second clip is a better argument I guess. I still felt like it has more to do with Luke being skeptical that what Yoda was asking was even possible though. Not a reflection on him but on the Force. I take it as Yoda basically saying either do it or not. There is no maybe with the Force.
 
Last edited:
Belief sure, but Luke never struck me as someone with low self-confidence. I guess he was a little unsure in ROTJ with Yoda but that's about all I can think of that might apply.

When he leaves Dagobah I think he is riddled with self doubt. He puts on a brave face but he is acting on emotion and impulse despite being admonished by Ben and Yoda. He seems entirely unsure of himself but entirely sure he must try and save his friends. That's what sets Luke apart from the PT Jedi Order.
 
Eh, if you say so but riddled in self doubt is not how I read him at all. Nothing about that scene would imply that interpretation that I can tell. He wants to rush off and save his friends and Yoda and later both Yoda and Obi-wan are begging him to stay. His training is not complete and he's going off half-******. At most, he's torn between his obligations to his friends and his quest to be a Jedi, but self-doubt is not something I get out of it.
 
Last edited:
Both Anakin and Luke had no knowledge of the force until someone else introduced it to them. While they both probably enjoyed enhanced performance with piloting and the like, they didn't know that they were tapping in to something larger than themselves.

Rey, on the other hand, had at least heard "stories". She could have heard of people using force powers to certain gains. After witnessing some force energy first hand with Kylos interrogation attempt (and who knows what she felt?) She at this point KNOWS the force stuff is not just a story. If she felt it enough to mentally fight back with Kylo, she's not doubting very much about it, and decided to try and run with it.

I'm contrast to Luke, who maybe was not such a fast study and had less faith in it, despite his desire to learn. Not everyone learns at the same pace. I don't feel Luke's training should be a benchmark for other force sensitive beings.

I also didn't find Rey to be secretive regarding her past. Her quip to BB-8 about being classified I took as a joke, (she later says she's waiting for family.) Her line to Finn about "none of your business" I thought was more a natural response to someone asking silly personal questions.

Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk
 
Back
Top