Star Wars Obi-Wan Kenobi (tv series)

[Psab keel]

Cue a nod the scene from Prince of Theives

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

That's the thing, the more Jedi who survived the Purge ( I like that far better than Order 66) and the more Inquisotors/ Sith there are it diminishes the role of the Skywalkers, Kenobi, Yoda and the Emperor. Their rarity is what made the Jedi and the Force work as a story element. By making it Jedi survivor of the week and Inquisitor of the week it robs the main story of any agency because there will always be someone else and truly makes Luke and Leia less and less significant. This is the problem of constantly asking for more and not venturing elsewhere in the story.

This.

I both agree and disagree with you on this. On the one hand, I do feel that it's not entirely unrealistic for a handful of Jedi and Padawan to have escaped Order 66 for any number of reasons. However, the closer that we get in time to ANH, the fewer remaining Jedi and Padawan there should be with maybe only a few outside of Obi-Wan and Yoda still left and in deep hiding, esp. the Padawan who would mostly stand no chance against Imperial forces and Inquisitors. But I do agree that many writers, for Star Wars mediums, are entirely too fond of their Force users, particularly Jedi.

It may not be realistic but Star Wars (the films) isn't realistic. It's dabbling in myth and legend. It plays on an emotional logic more than rational logic, and even then it can only be stretched so far. It doesn't make sense that the Empire is comprised of white British men, certainly a galaxy wide power would employ women and aliens, but it's an intentional artistic choice to portray it as mostly men to make it feel cold and powerful, while the Rebellion was more progressive with women and aliens in its fold. Irvin Kershner pretty much cemented this for ESB, in his words, to mirror the Revolutionary War: the Empire were the Brits, and the Rebels were American. It's diminishing returns; the more it's built up (even if reasonably) the more it takes away.

I posted this elsewhere but, again, Luke is important because he not only solves the Jedi/Sith crisis that the PT was about, but he is human! He is the new template on how to be. Among the Jedi, no one else achieved what he did. He said "damn the old ways, I'll do it my own" and it worked. Where the options were to kill Vader and the Emperor or die trying, he not only succeeds by going his own way, but accomplishes the impossible and redeems Vader out of the compassion he felt for him and the love he held for his friends. The old Jedi ways stopped with him; RotJ was the nail in that coffin. Anyone else that survives the Purge/Order 66 and past the OT timeline takes away from his importance, his mythic persona, and shows how pointless they are as characters *coughAsokacough*. They cannot touch the original movies because of continuity so the only options left is to portray them as apathetic cowards hiding in the shadows if they're "good" or irreparably evil if they're bad so we can kill them off. It's even worse now when they're meeting up with Luke and telling him how to do things, and sacrilege to have Luke make those mistakes that he had already solved so they can justify the Disney movies.

 

[CT1138]

I dont think the inquisitors themselves are bad as a concept but need more management and power.

I understand their need. You want to have an enemy that faces against the jedi who also use lightsabers for the cool fights but Sith have the rule of two and those roles are filled (Sidious and Vader). Sith are also incredibly powerful, stronger than most jedi so to give your third-tier jedi a cool lightsaber fight, use inquisitors (Kanan, etc would easily lose to Vader but could win a fight against the inquisitors).

I also dont think using converted jedi is that bad in concept. It is a dark side form of cruelty to use the very survivors to hunt the remaining survivors, turning the victims against one another.

I think the first problem is like the jedi who survived order 66, there seems to be an unlimited number of inquisitors. Grand inquisitor, nine sisters, constant replacements. This also is linked with Order 66 and the increasing number of jedi who survived. Before it was just a handful of the most skilled and powerful (Yoda and Obi Wan), hence why it was difficult to restart the order and why Luke/Leia was the last hope (two completely untrained potential jedi). Now, there is easily an untapped regiment of potential jedi who could have rebuilt the order while laying low.

The inquisitors are also weak. Maybe its because they always face off against main characters but they tend to just be strong fodder for the jedi. The difficult but defeatable opponents for jedi to practice their skills and show off since they cant take down Vader (for obvious reasons). They really arnt that big a threat (Ashoka took down several by herself) and even struggle against barely trained padawans (Jedi Fallen Order). They need a buff to be taken seriously although I think that is too late now.

I think the Inquisitors do make sense to a point. It seemed that Vader only got involved if an Inquisitor couldn't handle the job (like with Kanan and Ezra destroying the Grand Inquisitor along with Tarkin's Star Destroyer), or if it was a particularly notable Jedi or was personal (like with Ahsoka). Like, it's implied that Vader got involved with the Lothal Rebels not only because of the death of the Grand Inquisitor, but because Tarkin complained to the Emperor about these Rebels blowing up his ship, so Palpatine sent Vader to deal with the rebels personally. So, if Vader doesn't get involved, there needs to be a force that the Emperor can send out to deal with straggler Jedi (mostly untrained children post-Purge).

The point of the Inquisition is that they ARE weak. Neither Vader nor Palpatine would want dark siders hanging around who could become potential rivals, yet the Sith have long used acolytes for menial force-related tasks. Heck, this is an idea that goes as far back as some of the earliest post-ROTJ EU stories, and continued into canon material like The Clone Wars, where there's acolytes like Ventress. Sidious even begun his Inquisition plans during the Clone Wars by trying to kidnap force-sensitive babies that the Jedi had been keeping tabs on. But somebody who has had a considerable amount of training, like Kenobi or Ahsoka will beat an Inquisitor easily. Kenobi's time in the Order ended when he was a Councilmember, and Ahsoka left voluntarily at age 16. Neither are kids like Kanan was when Order 66 happened.

I think it can be inferred that Emperor Palpatine disbanded the Inquisition after repeated failures against the likes of Ghost Squadron, particularly Kanan and Ezra. They aren't something that has been seen in Disney era OT-concurrent expanded media, and in fact seemed to have disappeared all together after Season 2 of Rebels. By the time of the first movie, it would seem the Inquisition was considered a failure in the long term.

So why do we expect the Grand Inquisitor yo look exactly like his appearance in Rebels?

But we've seen Pau'ans on screen! View attachment 1555089
Yep we sure have. And guess what, the Grand Inquisitor already doesn't look like the Pau'ans we've seen. His face nearly white, not grey. And he doesn't have the lines that go through his face. So he already looks vastly different.

Now I'm not saying they couldn't do better. But I'm willing to see more shots of him before I turn my nose up at his live action appearance.

Ehhhhh, theGrand Inquisitor is pretty ashen grey in Rebels, and the lines in his face are fairly distinct, even if they don't go all the way through the center of his face. The lines in the Kenobi Grand Inquisitor are much more faint compared to this.

The problem is, as others have stated, is that the Grand Inquisitor in Rebels does follow through with the basic look of his species: gaunt, long, lined face, while his face is so round in Kenobi. The greatest sin is how this could have easily been fixed with a cotton-stuffed skull cap and and some contact lenses, as this edit shows:

God but look how much better he looks not halfassed. WORLDS more imposing and threatening a form. Sighhhh… what could have easily been

View attachment 1555004

View attachment 1555287

It was The Battle of the Heroes right at the beginning that did for me..... Just a hint of it. And I was kid with my action figures again listening the ROTS score on CD.

I choked up a little when that slow version of Battle of the Heroes started. I loved how it was used for Yoda's Order 66 vision in TCW. It has this touch of somberness while also evoking the concept of a big event.

 

[Wolfsburg]

This.



It may not be realistic but Star Wars (the films) isn't realistic. It's dabbling in myth and legend. It plays on an emotional logic more than rational logic, and even then it can only be stretched so far. It doesn't make sense that the Empire is comprised of white British men, certainly a galaxy wide power would employ women and aliens, but it's an intentional artistic choice to portray it as mostly men to make it feel cold and powerful, while the Rebellion was more progressive with women and aliens in its fold. Irvin Kershner pretty much cemented this for ESB, in his words, to mirror the Revolutionary War: the Empire were the Brits, and the Rebels were American. It's diminishing returns; the more it's built up (even if reasonably) the more it takes away.

I posted this elsewhere but, again, Luke is important because he not only solves the Jedi/Sith crisis that the PT was about, but he is human! He is the new template on how to be. Among the Jedi, no one else achieved what he did. He said "damn the old ways, I'll do it my own" and it worked. Where the options were to kill Vader and the Emperor or die trying, he not only succeeds by going his own way, but accomplishes the impossible and redeems Vader out of the compassion he felt for him and the love he held for his friends. The old Jedi ways stopped with him; RotJ was the nail in that coffin. Anyone else that survives the Purge/Order 66 and past the OT timeline takes away from his importance and how pointless they are as characters *coughAsokacough*. They cannot touch the original movies because of continuity so the only options left is to portray them as apathetic cowards hiding in the shadows if they're "good" or irreparably evil if they're bad. It's even worse now when they're meeting up with Luke and telling him how to do things and sacrilege to have Luke make those mistakes that he had already solved.

I agree completely. Obi-wan remaining in lonely seclusion for 20 years, all of the Jedi (save Yoda and Obi-wan) being wiped out by the OT, and Vader being the sole person to do it may not be realistic but does lend itself to the mythic quality SW used to lean so heavily on. We seem to continually be chipping away at that and finding "loopholes" to create fluff. I've butted heads with people arguing Yoda couldn't possibly know that Luke was the last Jedi but y'know what? He knew because he's Yoda and this is fantasy.

 

[Psab keel]

Has anyone also considered that the need for Inquisitors not only diminishes the threat of Vader and the Emperor but that of the Stormtroopers and the Imperial Navy along with them? Think about it. Order 66 saw the Jedi slaughtered because they outnumbered the Jedi. The Empire won through numbers as much as they did by the threat of violence with the Death Star. It's just something to consider how these new installments potentially weaken the existing narrative.

 

[Ron]

I hate the concept of the Empire using "Inquisitors". I would rather it was Vader himself that destroyed the remaining Jedi. When Ben talked about a fallen Jedi knight that hunted down all the other Jedi Knights, it cemented Vader as not only ruthlessly evil but incredibly powerful. Having inquisters diminishes that aura. Is it logistically practical considering how many Jedi there would presumably be in the galaxy? No. But that leads to another, let's say, 'disagreement' I have with the prequels. There's too many in the Jedi Order. I always envisioned the Jedi Knights as being very limited in number but highly powerful. If not round table sized then maybe a few dozen to a hundred at most. Where only one of them is capable of turning the tide of a battle. Heck, Luke turned the tide of an entire war.

Has anyone also considered that the need for Inquisitors not only diminishes the threat of Vader and the Emperor but that of the Stormtroopers and the Imperial Navy along with them? Think about it. Order 66 saw the Jedi slaughtered because they outnumbered the Jedi. The Empire won through numbers as much as they did by the threat of violence with the Death Star. It's just something to consider how these new installments potentially weaken the existing narrative.

You posted this as I was typing

 

[HeartBlade]

I agree completely. Obi-wan remaining in lonely seclusion for 20 years, all of the Jedi (save Yoda and Obi-wan) being wiped out by the OT, and Vader being the sole person to do it may not be realistic but does lend itself to the mythic quality SW used to lean so heavily on. We seem to continually be chipping away at that and finding "loopholes" to create fluff. I've butted heads with people arguing Yoda couldn't possibly know that Luke was the last Jedi but y'know what? He knew because he's Yoda and this is fantasy.

This as well. In an attempt to revisit and capitalize on OT, Lucasfilm and Disney are destroying the core of the film by adding in too much stuff.

Much like JK Rowling and her new frequent "tidbits" about the Harry Potter universe, there is an influx of "new great powerful heroes and warriors" who undermine the preexisting heroes in the process.

Vader was deadly because he is a powerful and trained former jedi using his powers for evil. The only remaining jedi left who could oppose him were an old man and an old muppet who were near their respective deathbeds (no offense). That is why the jedi pinned all their hopes on Luke, a barely adequately trained padawan who got the position because he had the potential to take down his father due to sharing the same blood. Even in RotJ, its not abundantly clear if Luke would really be able to take down Vader after the thrashing we saw in ESB.

If there are already so many well trained jedi (Ahsoka), why didnt they come to help Luke with his training, even as a sparring partner? Did they all just bury their heads in the sand and hide like cowards until Obi Wan, Yoda, and Luke solved everything?

All of this could be avoided if they explore a different time period.

 

[Wolfsburg]

Yeah, they really run the risk of screwing up or diluting existing lore, at least more than they have.

I never liked the Disney/Filoni-era Inquisitors. Prior to that, I viewed the Inquisitorius to be more of an arm of Imperial intelligence, alerting Vader to Jedi fugitives. I never liked the goofy "sister/brother" nomenclature nor the notion that the Inquisitors themselves were taking out these fugitive Jedi on their own.

 

[Psab keel]

 

[HeartBlade]

I dont personally think the inquisitors directly make Vader "weaker" but it does diminish his "legend" a little. It is no longer the jedi were wiped out by one all powerful man but jedi were hunted and exterminated by their own traitors led by one man.

I know if "makes sense" that inquisitors are weak in that they will never reach the power to rival vader or sidious (since they have the incentive not to) but whenever they appear, they never seem to succeed. Just snarl angrily and get their butts kicked. The grand inquisitor was kind of a viable threat but he also lost to Kanan Jarus (a trained padawan on the verge of knighthood). The ability to fly with their spinning sabers and the fact that they all use sabers (thereby dimishing its uniqueness as a solely Jedi/Sith weapon) only adds to the insult. Hell, I think the Praetorian guard was more effective than the inquisitors.

This is expanded universe but werent the Emperor's royal guards also slightly force sensitive? These guys are chosen by Palps because of their high skills so would have been a good threat that could be bested by jedi instead of creating a new unit.

 

[blewis17]

When Vader and Kenobi meet on Death Star 1, and Vader says:
I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan.
We meet again at last.
The circle is now complete... when I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master.

Am I correct in assuming that they are now being technical with the wording, so that for this new mini-series it would be:

I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan.
We meet again at last
(Referring to several years ago when I sensed you presence and we briefly ran into that each other on that Neon-lit planet, and I chased you around and you fell of a building and I thought you perished)

The circle is now complete... when I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master.
(Referring to 2 decades ago when I raced into Chancellor Palpatine's office to rescue him from Mace Windu and save Padme from my death dreams, and then I decided to become a Sith)

??????

 

[Wolfsburg]

When Vader and Kenobi meet on Death Star 1, and Vader says:
I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan.
We meet again at last.
The circle is now complete... when I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master.

Am I correct in assuming that they are now being technical with the wording, so that for this new mini-series it would be:

I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan.
We meet again at last
(Referring to several years ago when I sensed you presence and we briefly ran into that each other on that Neon-lit planet, and I chased you around and you fell of a building and I thought you perished)

The circle is now complete... when I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master.
(Referring to 2 decades ago when I raced into Chancellor Palpatine's office to rescue him from Mace Windu and save Padme from my death dreams, and then I decided to become a Sith)

??????

Yeah. Sadly this show will presumably make those lines something to "not think too hard about". I guess Disney thinks 10 years is a loooooong time. lol Clearly the intent was that they had not seen each other since Anakin fell to the dark side because otherwise these things would've likely already been said when they first saw each other again (which will now be 10 years prior to ANH).

 

[Pepperbone]

Yeah, they really run the risk of screwing up or diluting existing lore, at least more than they have.

Unfortunately they will (more than they already have).

 

[blewis17]

I still think there's a way they could do it...

I'm wondering if Kenobi pulls a Luke and "turns off" his Force sensitivity ala TLJ. So he can hide and avoid detection. And he catches a glimpse of Vader from afar (although, we don't know in canon when Kenobi learned that Anakin survived and was encased in armor, do we? Now that the EU is Legends material).

So, Kenobi may catch a glimpse of Vader but not initially know who he is, right?


P.S. Can the Jedi "turn off" their Force presence at will, then flip the switch back on? Luke seemed to do just that in TLJ.

P.S.S. And can Jedi see there own deaths? From the movies, only Yoda pulled that one off. Held off just long enough for Luke to come back, to Dagobah then mutter something about another sskkyyyy....wallll....keeeerrrrrr......zzzzzzz........

 

[CT1138]

Has anyone also considered that the need for Inquisitors not only diminishes the threat of Vader and the Emperor but that of the Stormtroopers and the Imperial Navy along with them? Think about it. Order 66 saw the Jedi slaughtered because they outnumbered the Jedi. The Empire won through numbers as much as they did by the threat of violence with the Death Star. It's just something to consider how these new installments potentially weaken the existing narrative.

As we see in Rebels, the point of the Inquisition isn't just to kill surviving Jedi, but to force them, and any new force sensitive infants that are born, to serve the Empire under threat of death.

I hate the concept of the Empire using "Inquisitors". I would rather it was Vader himself that destroyed the remaining Jedi. When Ben talked about a fallen Jedi knight that hunted down all the other Jedi Knights, it cemented Vader as not only ruthlessly evil but incredibly powerful. Having inquisters diminishes that aura. Is it logistically practical considering how many Jedi there would presumably be in the galaxy? No. But that leads to another, let's say, 'disagreement' I have with the prequels. There's too many in the Jedi Order. I always envisioned the Jedi Knights as being very limited in number but highly powerful. If not round table sized then maybe a few dozen to a hundred at most. Where only one of them is capable of turning the tide of a battle. Heck, Luke turned the tide of an entire war.

You posted this as I was typing

I mean, Obi-Wan was lying through his teeth the entire conversation, so it's not unexpected.

 

[Psab keel]

Couldn't an army force a Jedi against their will to do the same? I mean you outnumber someone or threaten to hurt their family/ loved ones and you can coerce good people to do bad things. Why do they necessarily have to also be Force users? The point being that the Empire alone with all their might is equally diminished as an evil entity when they need numerous Force users to do all the heavy lifting. Why bother having an army at all? The Sith could just subjugate the people with their powers.

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

P.S. Can the Jedi "turn off" their Force presence at will, then flip the switch back on? Luke seemed to do just that in TLJ.

This has been an idea in the EU since forever but just because it's been around doesn't mean it's a good one. It seems people forget that Yoda and Ben pretty much establish that the Force is life itself. Without the Force, there can be no life; without life there can be no Force. That's pretty clear cut and dry. People always want to bring up that Palpatine must've done it too because he's the most evil wizard there ever was and nobody picked it up. Well, they also forget that he's the most evil wizard of all time and deceived people into thinking he was a nobody. He is, after all, the most evil wizard there ever was, he could do whatever he wants---he's evil!

 

[ConvergencePro]

But it's important to take in consideration the art form that we first see the Grand Inquisitor in. Rebels is very stylized, and slightly exaggerated.
Stormtroopers don't look like this.
View attachment 1555083

They look like this.
View attachment 1555084

Darth Vader doesn't look like this.View attachment 1555085
He looks like this.
View attachment 1555087

So why do we expect the Grand Inquisitor yo look exactly like his appearance in Rebels?

But we've seen Pau'ans on screen! View attachment 1555089
Yep we sure have. And guess what, the Grand Inquisitor already doesn't look like the Pau'ans we've seen. His face nearly white, not grey. And he doesn't have the lines that go through his face. So he already looks vastly different.

Now I'm not saying they couldn't do better. But I'm willing to see more shots of him before I turn my nose up at his live action appearance.

I don’t expect him to look like he does in rebels so much as its jarring that his Original Rebels design is far closer to the E3 versions of his species than this new “Onion Head” version

I agree with Joek3rr that we shouldnt knock it until we try it. To me the inquisitors look good enough and there is a limitation in regard to practicality. Would rather have well done action scenes and acting with a less accurate Inquisitor than bad scenes with an "accurate" inquisitor. Live-action Ahsoka isnt exactly accurate to her cartoon portrayal either.

Im just taking a passive view to see how this one plays out.

I do agree with Psab that this constant increase in the number of jedi survivors is getting silly. Although they could slowly die out like Riceball mentioned, the list of permanent survivors is steadily growing to the point where it doesnt make much sense for the jedi to have not tried to come together and organize some sort of small organization for Luke to take over once he became a jedi himself. The fact that Luke attempted (and failed) to restart the Jedi Order from scratch seems silly given the significant number of jedi that survived with more traditional training and knowledge of the force than Luke.

Also, it makes the ST even weirder. So Ben was strong enough to take out Ashoka, Grogu, Kanan Jarus, and all the other jedi survivors who survived order 66 (so are still quite skilled for surviving a purge) but cant take out completely untrained Finn or Rey? Or was the Last Jedi quote BS with Luke saying he wasnt the last jedi, not referring to Rey but to Ahsoka and crew who were actually chilling in Chapel Island (the Island right next to Temple Island)?

I’m seeing this “but muh action scenes” excuse used a lot now in desparation for giving excuses for this stuff..

Where exactly are these amazing “action scenes” requiring these sacrifices in accuracy be made?
Watch the Ahsoka fight against the Magistrate again. Sure its cool.. the lightings great.. but its’ really NOT that dramatic, especially in fight choreography, even compared to Vader fighting in ESB... Nowhere in it do I see where would longer Lekku, say even just 4-5 inches longer, would have truly gotten in the way..

So yeah, I feell I’ll unfortunately have to call bull **** on this one… and just reassert my accusation that Disney StarWars is Lazy

I think its more likely that Ahsoka is simply one of the very first of the Lazy alien designs we got before Blue Nosferatu (Cad) and now Onion Head (GI)...

I think its Far more likely that, given what we’ve seen and know about some of the parts which we know they’ve previously ‘sourced’ from pre-made fan vendors, that they probably just bought or commissioned some Fan made Clone Wars style Ahsoka cosplay Lekku to use because that was far cheaper to do and already existed because, again, they’re Lazy, and it was probably also the cheapest option too. And thats why they look wrong compared to how she should look at this age.
But hey, I could just be a totally mistaken cynical ass

 

[ScourgiousJinx]

As much as I dislike discussing this film, in TLJ I think Luke masked his presence in the force from others and just chose not to use it more than he shut it off. He just didn't bother to correct Rey's observation. Luke also hid himself from the Emperor in ROTJ when he arrived on Endor, he certainly didn't shut off the force as he sensed Vader. Palpatine cloaked his presence in the force he didn't shut it off.

As its been said it's not possible for Jedi or anyone to entirely cut off their connection to the Force as it part of the physical makeup of the universe and everything in it. I also don't buy into the force ability of completely severing someone else's connection to it. Ridiculous, whether or not it's canon.

 

[Galactican]

I still think there's a way they could do it...

I'm wondering if Kenobi pulls a Luke and "turns off" his Force sensitivity ala TLJ. So he can hide and avoid detection. And he catches a glimpse of Vader from afar (although, we don't know in canon when Kenobi learned that Anakin survived and was encased in armor, do we? Now that the EU is Legends material).

So, Kenobi may catch a glimpse of Vader but not initially know who he is, right?

That is exactly my theory but it is Vader who catchs a glimpse of Obi-Wan instead. I think Vader will go after Obi-Wan without a direct confrontation of the two. Maybe one or two chats through the Force, that should be acceptable. In ANH he mentions he feels Obi's presence, he may do so here. That might make him send out the GI to investigate. He even could pursue Obi with his TIE and blast his N-1 out of the sky, believing Obi did not survive the crash, but I don't see any way they could meet in person. However, when I watch the scene from ANH it does not seem that Vader is very surprised to meet Obi again. Of course they haven't met for a long time but I have always assumed Vader knew that Obi was still alive and that he was still waiting for the cycle to complete.