That was the point i wanted to make. They were not old men per say, Alec was 65 granted but Prowse was 42. And yes the tech back then was also a limiting factor, but if we can justify all that for one stiff lightsaber battle, I think we can also say the same for this one. Ray was 56 or so during filming and Rosario about 42.... don't you think that the limiting factor here is also age and acrobatic skill at those ages?
This is one of the mistakes (in my mind anyways) that George made in the prequels with Dooku. If you have him in his 70s, & Yoda in his 850s or so, then their fight should've matched the ANH duel more closely. I know the visual joke was supposed to be Yoda flying around like a whirling dervish, but then immediately needing his cane afterwards, with the idea that they'd both tapped into some special Force ability to fight like that. That's all fine, but it just didn't match up to me.
This is one of the mistakes (in my mind anyways) that George made in the prequels with Dooku. If you have him in his 70s, & Yoda in his 850s or so, then their fight should've matched the ANH duel more closely. I know the visual joke was supposed to be Yoda flying around like a whirling dervish, but then immediately needing his cane afterwards, with the idea that they'd both tapped into some special Force ability to fight like that. That's all fine, but it just didn't match up to me.
Exactly, he should have left the acrobatic fighting to Ewan, Raypark, Hayden etc... Those were young actors as well as young characters and it was glorious to see. But Dooku, Palps, yoda etc... those should have been more calculated and slow, throwing bolts and rocks and stuff. IMO
Most of the time, no, namely because you should keep the pointy thing between you & your opponent.
There have been times that 'in universe', the spinning/twirling has been said to generate power behind the strike, but since SW & the Jedi have strong roots in the Samurai lore, the most realistic (& greatest IMO) lightsaber duel in all of SW was in the REBELS episode 'Twin Suns' between Kenobi & Maul
Samurai's fights are really short and boring (in terms of choregraphie). Wrists were slashed, or major neck arteries/veins (either way, you're disabled and blead to death).
Thats not always a bad thing. Rick Berman always tried to stay true to what he thought Gene Roddenberry would do, even when Berman would have done something different otherwise, and the result was Star Trek stagnating.
Yep. And that's perfectly fine. Heck some of the best Star Wars content (and some of my favorite) have reduced involvement from George, if any involvement at all. But nevertheless it's worth keeping in mind that we aren't seeing George's vision from Dave. Filoni, and heck all of Disney/Lucasfilm have great about sticking to George's vision (as it was circa 2012) when it suits them. They're also very willing to go off and do their own thing. For better or worse.
Yep. And that's perfectly fine. Heck some of the best Star Wars content (and some of my favorite) have reduced involvement from George, if any involvement at all. But nevertheless it's worth keeping in mind that we aren't seeing George's vision from Dave. Filoni, and heck all of Disney/Lucasfilm have great about sticking to George's vision (as it was circa 2012) when it suits them. They're also very willing to go off and do their own thing. For better or worse.
Indeed, in reading Rinzler's "Making of The Empire Strikes Back", it shows that we got arguably the best of all the Star Wars movies because director Irvin Kershner defied George Lucas numerous times, and wasn't afraid to depart from the shooting script when it made more sense. That's how we got "I love you. I know." Yes, it was Harrison Ford's idea, but it was Kershner's guts that made it actually happen.
I think it’s real Anakin, he found the WBW. It’s post first Duku fight pre eye scar while training Ahsoka early on. Maybe he heard Balen say “ everyone knew Anakin, not everyone knew what he became, that’s gotta leave a mark” she shows him their fight from Twilight of the Aprentice in the WBW to prove it…
This puts him on the path to be “the one” without the fall. The music queues suggest maybe otherwise but everyone is doing the verse thing these days why not Star Wars.
Either way really exited to see Hayden as Anakin and where this goes next week
That was the point i wanted to make. They were not old men per say, Alec was 65 granted but Prowse was 42. And yes the tech back then was also a limiting factor, but if we can justify all that for one stiff lightsaber battle, I think we can also say the same for this one. Ray was 56 or so during filming and Rosario about 42.... don't you think that the limiting factor here is also age and acrobatic skill at those ages?
Also David Prowse was so big and didn't have the dexterity to do sword choreography, especially in the suit. That's why Bob Anderson was brought in. So many people blame Alec but iirc he was more than capable of doing more complex choreo than we ended up getting, I mean the man was classically trained as an actor and that included stage fighting
Seeing as I know nothing about sword fighting, does it ever make sense to spin/twirl in the middle of a fight? I get that it looks dramatic, but is it smart?
It's widely regarded as not being a smart thing to do (outside of a few very select circumstances) as it takes your eyes off of you opponent. And during that time while you have your back turned to your opponent, it gives them a free attack at your exposed back.
Yep. And that's perfectly fine. Heck some of the best Star Wars content (and some of my favorite) have reduced involvement from George, if any involvement at all. But nevertheless it's worth keeping in mind that we aren't seeing George's vision from Dave. Filoni, and heck all of Disney/Lucasfilm have great about sticking to George's vision (as it was circa 2012) when it suits them. They're also very willing to go off and do their own thing. For better or worse.
I agree. Dave was mentored by George for years. Im sure he knows exactly how George thinks and his reasoning. I think that gives him a clear understanding of Georges larger vision of what makes Star Wars special and Ive gotten the impression he cares about preserving that. So while he will have different creative choices that George wouldn’t make, that may not be bad if he can stick to the spirit of the story that George intended.
I want to talk about some theories of what might be happening, or at least some oddities I noticed that are interesting. Since it's based on theories I've heard online, that if true would spoil potential plot points, I'll spoiler tag.
Recently, I saw some theories about the World between Worlds and the larger story. The most interesting part is the part about Ahsoka the White in Rebels. For those that haven't seen Rebels and don't want details spoiled there, turn back!
At the end of Rebels, we see the Epilogue with Ahsoka in a white robe approaching Sabine. We see this exact scene at the end of episode 2, but Ahsoka is in her regular gray robes. It has been theorized that Ahsoka's journey in the World between Worlds will change her and she may actually go back in time to re-do the earlier part of the story, but now as "Ahsoka the White". While it's very possible that Dave decided to just retcon the ending of Rebels a bit, it seems like a very deliberate creative choice to have her in the white robes.
While this is interesting, it made me think further about Baylan. There have also been rumors (or at least quotes from Ray interviews) mentioning his goals and personality may not be what people think, even suggesting he may be looking to go back in time to change the Empire rules. The idea of time travel actually makes some of his lines hit differently. I wonder if Baylan has actually already been in the World between Worlds and he thinks Thrawn can help him get back somehow. He speaks as if he has lived certain moments already. If you consider him having already done this a few times, or at least in a few different ways (multiple universes in the World between Worlds) some of his cryptic lines come off differently. He talks as if he knows how people will act already, which I think we all assume is just understanding his opponent as an experienced ex-Jedi, but it's possible it's something else.
Morgan: "Is that a hint of fear I hear in your voice?"
Baylan: "Experience"
Ahsoka draws her lightsaber
Baylan: "How inevitable"
Has Ahsoka on the cliff edge
Baylan referring to her choice to fight: "You know no other way"
He constantly seems disappointed in Ahsoka's approach and having to fight her. To go a bit further, his time in the World between Worlds may be how he knows Anakin and that he was Vader. Through seeing events in the World between Worlds.
One last thing, when Shin asks Baylan what awaits them if they find Thrawn, he says "Power, such that you couldn't imagine". Which again, makes me wonder if he's talking about access to the World between Worlds. If he thinks he can alter history through the World between Worlds then that would be worthy of that line.
That is all a big stretch, but I thought it would be fun to consider some theories and piece together behavior that may support these theories. Those are just may loose thoughts and may have some errors, but it triggered some interesting thoughts/possibilities.
Maybe it was already mentioned but we need to also remember that Alec Guinness and Dave Prowse were literally tethered by electrical cords coming out of their lightsabers so they were pretty limited in their movements. I think it had less to do with their physicality and more to do with the technological limitations of the lightsabers.
Historically, the explanation I always accepted for the lackluster ANH fight was Obi-wan was old and out of practice and Vader felt no need to do any more than just toy with him. The Kenobi show somewhat ruined that since now we must accept Obi-wan must’ve really gone downhill much faster (10yrs vs 20yrs), even after his arc in the show of “rediscovering” the Force and getting back in fighting shape…
I want to talk about some theories of what might be happening, or at least some oddities I noticed that are interesting. Since it's based on theories I've heard online, that if true would spoil potential plot points, I'll spoiler tag.
Recently, I saw some theories about the World between Worlds and the larger story. The most interesting part is the part about Ahsoka the White in Rebels. For those that haven't seen Rebels and don't want details spoiled there, turn back!
At the end of Rebels, we see the Epilogue with Ahsoka in a white robe approaching Sabine. We see this exact scene at the end of episode 2, but Ahsoka is in her regular gray robes. It has been theorized that Ahsoka's journey in the World between Worlds will change her and she may actually go back in time to re-do the earlier part of the story, but now as "Ahsoka the White". While it's very possible that Dave decided to just retcon the ending of Rebels a bit, it seems like a very deliberate creative choice to have her in the white robes.
While this is interesting, it made me think further about Baylan. There have also been rumors (or at least quotes from Ray interviews) mentioning his goals and personality may not be what people think, even suggesting he may be looking to go back in time to change the Empire rules. The idea of time travel actually makes some of his lines hit differently. I wonder if Baylan has actually already been in the World between Worlds and he thinks Thrawn can help him get back somehow. He speaks as if he has lived certain moments already. If you consider him having already done this a few times, or at least in a few different ways (multiple universes in the World between Worlds) some of his cryptic lines come off differently. He talks as if he knows how people will act already, which I think we all assume is just understanding his opponent as an experienced ex-Jedi, but it's possible it's something else.
Morgan: "Is that a hint of fear I hear in your voice?"
Baylan: "Experience"
Ahsoka draws her lightsaber
Baylan: "How inevitable"
Has Ahsoka on the cliff edge
Baylan referring to her choice to fight: "You know no other way"
He constantly seems disappointed in Ahsoka's approach and having to fight her. To go a bit further, his time in the World between Worlds may be how he knows Anakin and that he was Vader. Through seeing events in the World between Worlds.
One last thing, when Shin asks Baylan what awaits them if they find Thrawn, he says "Power, such that you couldn't imagine". Which again, makes me wonder if he's talking about access to the World between Worlds. If he thinks he can alter history through the World between Worlds then that would be worthy of that line.
That is all a big stretch, but I thought it would be fun to consider some theories and piece together behavior that may support these theories. Those are just may loose thoughts and may have some errors, but it triggered some interesting thoughts/possibilities.
interesting to consider Baylen has been in WBW. It’s not necessarily time travel though. It’s a window into different times so he could have seen the future amd is making decisions and saying things based on seeing those future events.
As I understand it one can’t pop in and out of timelines in WBW.
I will say that Episode 4 had a lot better dialogue and action than the first 3 episodes. I give it 7/10.
There were some really good scenes.. but also a lot of dramatic dead space that didnt work, and some plot and character inconsistencies, which goes back to the writing or directing. Overall a pretty good episode that i would watch again.
I do really like Ray Stevensons Baylan Skoll character so far. I think he is one of the best things about this series.
I want to talk about some theories of what might be happening, or at least some oddities I noticed that are interesting. Since it's based on theories I've heard online, that if true would spoil potential plot points, I'll spoiler tag.
Recently, I saw some theories about the World between Worlds and the larger story. The most interesting part is the part about Ahsoka the White in Rebels. For those that haven't seen Rebels and don't want details spoiled there, turn back!
At the end of Rebels, we see the Epilogue with Ahsoka in a white robe approaching Sabine. We see this exact scene at the end of episode 2, but Ahsoka is in her regular gray robes. It has been theorized that Ahsoka's journey in the World between Worlds will change her and she may actually go back in time to re-do the earlier part of the story, but now as "Ahsoka the White". While it's very possible that Dave decided to just retcon the ending of Rebels a bit, it seems like a very deliberate creative choice to have her in the white robes.
While this is interesting, it made me think further about Baylan. There have also been rumors (or at least quotes from Ray interviews) mentioning his goals and personality may not be what people think, even suggesting he may be looking to go back in time to change the Empire rules. The idea of time travel actually makes some of his lines hit differently. I wonder if Baylan has actually already been in the World between Worlds and he thinks Thrawn can help him get back somehow. He speaks as if he has lived certain moments already. If you consider him having already done this a few times, or at least in a few different ways (multiple universes in the World between Worlds) some of his cryptic lines come off differently. He talks as if he knows how people will act already, which I think we all assume is just understanding his opponent as an experienced ex-Jedi, but it's possible it's something else.
Morgan: "Is that a hint of fear I hear in your voice?"
Baylan: "Experience"
Ahsoka draws her lightsaber
Baylan: "How inevitable"
Has Ahsoka on the cliff edge
Baylan referring to her choice to fight: "You know no other way"
He constantly seems disappointed in Ahsoka's approach and having to fight her. To go a bit further, his time in the World between Worlds may be how he knows Anakin and that he was Vader. Through seeing events in the World between Worlds.
One last thing, when Shin asks Baylan what awaits them if they find Thrawn, he says "Power, such that you couldn't imagine". Which again, makes me wonder if he's talking about access to the World between Worlds. If he thinks he can alter history through the World between Worlds then that would be worthy of that line.
That is all a big stretch, but I thought it would be fun to consider some theories and piece together behavior that may support these theories. Those are just may loose thoughts and may have some errors, but it triggered some interesting thoughts/possibilities.
That was the point i wanted to make. They were not old men per say, Alec was 65 granted but Prowse was 42. And yes the tech back then was also a limiting factor, but if we can justify all that for one stiff lightsaber battle, I think we can also say the same for this one. Ray was 56 or so during filming and Rosario about 42.... don't you think that the limiting factor here is also age and acrobatic skill at those ages?
Alec was 65, that is old. Prowse was a bodybuilder and bodybuilders are not famous of being acrobatic. But I think the biggest factor then was the fragile blade. Rosario as 42 is nothing, Ray as 56, that can be a factor, also their outfit can be a factor, but Ray's character's fighting style could suit his age. But it is not, then this is one of the reasons we have stunt performers for.
interesting to consider Baylen has been in WBW. It’s not necessarily time travel though. It’s a window into different times so he could have seen the future amd is making decisions and saying things based on seeing those future events.
As I understand it one can’t pop in and out of timelines in WBW.
Hmm. I wonder how this works with Ezra pulling out Ahoska and saving her. It was something that happened in the past and he was able to affect that past history, or least past dimension. It seems like you can at least affect other timelines or create new ones? I'm not sure what the exact rules are.
Hmm. I wonder how this works with Ezra pulling out Ahoska and saving her. It was something that happened in the past and he was able to affect that past history, or least past dimension. It seems like you can at least affect other timelines or create new ones? I'm not sure what the exact rules are.
exactly - he pulled her in but I “think” she had to go back into her time where he pulled her out of. I think Anakin did the same to her here. They will talk - maybe anakin finds out about what he becomes- then she has to go back into her timeline, meet up with Hera and get back on the chase. I think the purgils factor into getting them to where Baylan and co. Went. And Anakin goes back to where he entered… that leaves some things to be considered too I think.
It’s super interesting to think maybe Baylen has some insights/knowledge due to the WBW too
exactly - he pulled her in but I “think” she had to go back into her time where he pulled her out of. I think Anakin did the same to her here. They will talk - maybe anakin finds out about what he becomes- then she has to go back into her timeline, meet up with Hera and get back on the chase. I think the purgils factor into getting them to where Baylan and co. Went. And Anakin goes back to where he entered… that leaves some things to be considered too I think.
It’s super interesting to think maybe Baylen has some insights/knowledge due to the WBW too
